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http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2012/08/why-have-so-many-cities-and-towns-given-away-so-much-money-bass-pro-shops-and-cabelas/2906/quote:Why Have So Many Cities and Towns Given Away So Much Money to Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's?
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# ? Jul 14, 2014 23:29 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 07:14 |
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I thought this was going to be another thread about the F-35. Somehow it's even more infuriating. I guess because I wouldn't expect small local governments to shoot themselves in the foot. But still pretty funny. This reminded me of the monorail episode of the Simpsons, except this situation is even more outrageous. At least if the monorail had worked, it could have possibly provided some benefit to the city. It is hard to believe, and pretty sad, that real life is even worse than that hyperbolic story. Are the decision makers corrupt or incompetent? At the federal level I am certain it would be corruption. But at the local level it seems like more of a toss-up.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 02:36 |
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Unsurprisingly, in this kind of circumstance, I'd bet good money that -- until the arrival of Bass Pro Shops, Cabela's, etc. to a lower-middle class area -- the overriding political agenda was against limiting, in any sense, big business (because, you see, to do so would be Socialist!). These big stores are coming in, using economy of scale to undersell the local, smaller establishments, and are (essentially) the invariable result of a political and social culture that does very little to stymie corporate entitlement. I find it difficult to feel particularly bad about Bill Winkler, and his ilk, because in all probability, they've actively voted to ensure that business is protected (almost certainly without genuine consideration for the personal consequences such a stance would have). It reminds me of listening to all the yahoos that remain completely, totally convinced that the dumping of tons of taxpayer dollars into the construction of a pro football stadium is a Very Good Thing for the community (despite exemptions from tax payment, use of public services, benefits to only a small segment of the population, etc).
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 03:34 |
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Out of curiosity are these two stores unusual examples or is this sort of thing typical for big box stores (or other large private businesses) and the article decided to focus on these two?
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 03:50 |
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It's a product of governments dominated by businessmen, who take the interests of the business class as equivalent to national or state interests.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 03:53 |
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tsa posted:Out of curiosity are these two stores unusual examples or is this sort of thing typical for big box stores (or other large private businesses) and the article decided to focus on these two? Actually raising money to buy the store sounds unusual to me but I know of a city nearby where they essentially gave the land to Walmart for free so they could build a store.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 03:55 |
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Man now I feel bad for buying a gun at Bass Pro.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 04:02 |
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tsa posted:Out of curiosity are these two stores unusual examples or is this sort of thing typical for big box stores (or other large private businesses) and the article decided to focus on these two? I think it's more drawing on the fact that Bass Pro/Cabela's are more spectacles than say a Wal-Mart would be. Wal-Mart's pretty much the same wherever barring a few local items or whatever but those stores always have some weird rear end/fancy poo poo that's supposed to bring in more money and be an interesting attraction. The one closest to me has a bunch of fish in it and it's sort of neat to walk through once if you have 20 minutes to kill. Of course they're also a lot more expensive and less practical than a grocery/department store is so they need to lean more on locals and sucker them into thinking it'll be something that draws people in. Too bad you could drive an hour around St. Louis and find 3-4 of the drat things. I suppose it'd have more allure if I gave a poo poo about hunting/fishing but you get one that might draw eyes and have business build around it but after that they spread and OOPS my eye grabbing store has a lot less appeal now that you can get to one closer or with less effort.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 04:10 |
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Because state and local governments are even easier and cheaper to strong arm than the federal government.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 08:22 |
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Man, Americans are retarded.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 08:51 |
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Second on thinking this was going be another F-35 thread. These stores have figured out how to swindle small towns essentially. The councilmen of these places as the article points out probably aren't too knowledgeable about economics. They primarily exist in rural areas where they can fast talk the local government using a bunch of pro-business rhetoric, doesn't hurt that these places are often desperate for any way to stop the economic pain they are experiencing which makes them even easier marks.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 08:52 |
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Man, if you think this is bad, then you clearly haven't noticed Walmart.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 11:27 |
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Axetrain posted:Second on thinking this was going be another F-35 thread. These stores have figured out how to swindle small towns essentially. The councilmen of these places as the article points out probably aren't too knowledgeable about economics. They primarily exist in rural areas where they can fast talk the local government using a bunch of pro-business rhetoric, doesn't hurt that these places are often desperate for any way to stop the economic pain they are experiencing which makes them even easier marks. I'm sure a large part of the argument is "We can build this thing in the town on the other side of the tracks if you want, sucking up cash and jobs from your own community, or you can incentivize us to pick your town to bring jobs and tourism money."
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 12:50 |
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A big reason for this is the consistent failure of American cities to capture an adequate level of revenue through property taxation, resulting in an elevation of the importance of transactional taxes like sales taxes, local motor fuel taxes, etc.Strong Towns posted:The primary job of a city government is to support the things which build wealth and create prosperity within their community. They enable the creation of prosperity by investing in services and infrastructure, which in turn makes their city more valuable and funds the investment. Of course, one reason that cities are so desperate for sales tax revenue is that they often intentionally prevent any style of development that generates a higher value/acre and lower service cost/acre than single family dwellings. Look at any city's zoning map and you'll notice a sea of (usually) yellow, which designates low-density residential. Low density residential and commercial development consistently fail to pay their own way, yet cities typically prevent anything else from being built in the vast majority of their territory. Add to this the fact that we build our streets waaaay too wide (higher capital and maintenance costs) and you have a situation where property taxes are simply never going to cover the municipal budget. And so councils chase sales taxes.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 13:43 |
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We probably should just have a thread talking about strong towns. The scope of the problems they discuss encompass this thread and all of the lovely ways our towns have been loving themselves for 50 years.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 14:26 |
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Axetrain posted:These stores have figured out how to swindle small towns essentially. The councilmen of these places as the article points out probably aren't too knowledgeable about economics. They primarily exist in rural areas where they can fast talk the local government using a bunch of pro-business rhetoric, doesn't hurt that these places are often desperate for any way to stop the economic pain they are experiencing which makes them even easier marks. Nah. The problem is that capital is so strong that it can coerce local (and state, and most of the time federal) governments with race to the bottom rhetoric. Either you give us these sweet tax breaks, or we go build over in Shelbyville where they've already promised X tax breaks. e: It's just patronizing to assume these people are ignorant. While the standard of entry into local government is not as high as it should be, you do generally have to be a member of the business class in order to network and spend your way into office. That's another problem, many local officials worship at the temple of business and so a new shiny mall, new Growth, is an unabashed good even if it isn't all that great an investment. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jul 15, 2014 |
# ? Jul 15, 2014 15:18 |
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Many local leaders are the big businessman. This is a corruption problem more than a dumbness one. The story is very familiar in poor countries, I mean look at the Middle East, construction is very easy way to steal.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 19:00 |
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Liquid Communism posted:Man, if you think this is bad, then you clearly haven't noticed Walmart.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 20:14 |
Stanos posted:I think it's more drawing on the fact that Bass Pro/Cabela's are more spectacles than say a Wal-Mart would be. Wal-Mart's pretty much the same wherever barring a few local items or whatever but those stores always have some weird rear end/fancy poo poo that's supposed to bring in more money and be an interesting attraction. The one closest to me has a bunch of fish in it and it's sort of neat to walk through once if you have 20 minutes to kill. Of course they're also a lot more expensive and less practical than a grocery/department store is so they need to lean more on locals and sucker them into thinking it'll be something that draws people in. Too bad you could drive an hour around St. Louis and find 3-4 of the drat things. Bass Pro Shop legitimately is a tourist attraction...for the first municipality that builds one in a region, and until they are everywhere, yeah. When I was in high school a Bass Pro opened up literally 100 miles away from my hometown and people started going there with the air that they were going to an amusement park or something. It is definitely a redneck/fisher/hunter mecca and the Bass Pro fishing tournaments are operated from some of those locations as well, so that draws in the serious crowd. Once they're a dime a dozen then all of that goes away and all of those promises vaporize, but Bass Pro treaded carefully at first to build up a reputation as more than a big box store so as to sucker in as many places as they could once they started a big expansion push.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 20:44 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Nah. The problem is that capital is so strong that it can coerce local (and state, and most of the time federal) governments with race to the bottom rhetoric. Either you give us these sweet tax breaks, or we go build over in Shelbyville where they've already promised X tax breaks. Yeah but if the area is already saturated with these stores then how much revenue could they possibly siphon by building elsewhere. It was probably silly of me to jump on the ignorance excuse right away though, I'm sure corruption plays a huge part in this sort of thing.
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 21:05 |
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Its Tezzy. He only posted it because ZOMG GUUUUNS! Otherwise he couldn't care less. This is a thing that is done for literally every big box store ever. Sure, big retailers get tax breaks, but when I walk into a Wal-Mart that gets tax breaks I am not greeted by taxpayer-funded waterfalls and $50,000 dioramas and "food libraries"
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 21:23 |
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Right because tax breaks or land given is how promotional displays are paid for
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# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:27 |
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Right because tax breaks or land given is how promotional displays are paid for Apparently, it is!
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 02:03 |
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Most big box places get sweetheart deals, the difference here is the largess involved and what amounts to highway robbery in taxes lost due to the con that it's a tourist attraction. Which it is, until Cabela's moves in or another shiny Bass Pro is opened up nearby that siphons off the attraction money. Then you have a bunch of mom and pop stores that lose, big box places cannibalizing each other and a bunch of tax revenue lost so Jim Bob and Bubba can go stare at the fish in the store while buying more hunting equipment. Walmart/Target/whatever grocery chains get those benefits but at least people need to eat, buy toiletries or whatever doohickeys that they can't wait for delivery on. The biggest losers are whoever blinks first on these stores. One comes in and does well then they get hungry and spread, which defeats the whole tourist attraction thing they have going. I'm actually kind of surprised there isn't more gimmick stores like them for stuff that isn't outdoors/hunting stuff.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 02:06 |
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Its Tezzy. He only posted it because ZOMG GUUUUNS! Otherwise he couldn't care less. Should we assume the only reason you're posting here is because you're a gun fanatic? quote:This is a thing that is done for literally every big box store ever. Source?
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 03:02 |
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I'm an urban planner for a midwestern college town, and we've "incentivized" a fair number of projects in the past several years. At least we have the sense to never offer money up front. Instead we do performance-based tax rebates (e.g. they can withhold a certain amount of taxes for every full-time job, or they don't have to pay sales taxes for a certain number of years, etc.). Of course, this is just a slightly less smelly version of the same poo poo sandwich.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 04:13 |
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Helsing posted:Should we assume the only reason you're posting here is because you're a gun fanatic?
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 05:54 |
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Stanos posted:I'm actually kind of surprised there isn't more gimmick stores like them for stuff that isn't outdoors/hunting stuff. Maybe Fry's Electronics? I'd never travel 100 miles out of my way to visit one but if I found myself in the same city as one it's about the only retail store that I would seriously entertain visiting.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 05:54 |
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Outdoor retailers do get special treatment beyond what Wal-Mart or other retailers get, and the reason is pretty simple: they're more than just stores, they're cultural markers. When Cabela's or Bass Pro comes to town with a development plan, they're not selling local leaders on a retail store. They're selling a monument to Real America, with Realtree camo jackets as far as the eye can see and Grandpa's old hunting truck parked outside. Nobody but the Waltons feels that strongly about Wal-Mart. And, especially in the semi-rural areas they choose, the people running the cities and counties aren't development experts - they're just the biggest good ol' boys around. Of course they're going to buy into it, and shovel money at the dream of having their very own outdoor superstore. The promises of economic development are just a bonus they can use to convince themselves that what they want for themselves is a good idea for the community, too. The closest comparison is probably the mall developers who sold the same small towns on the idea of building shopping malls in economically depressed blue-collar towns - why, it's sure to turn your fine city into an upper middle class shopping destination! And your 76-trombone band can march straight down the main promenade!
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 06:55 |
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Can't speak for really rural America, but they are building a Cabela's near me in Tualatin Oregon. http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Cabelas-brings-jobs-outdoor-goods-to-Tualatin-262804211.html The funniest part of this new development project is that they had to tear down a local strip joint with its own storied past to build it. Jiggles was famous locally for having it's liquor license revoked, so they decide to take advantage having no real requirement to be 21 an older and made the age requirement 18 years. Tualatin definitely isn't banking on this Cabela's being any sort of serious outdoorman Mecca. They've been taking advantage of being right on I-5 and next to Portland and building out for every kind of store imaginable. Just up the road is a Dick's Sporting Goods and an REI, and all that covers everything from fishing, to guns, to yoga pants, and on up to high end camping and sports equipment. Not to mention that across the street is a Fred Meyers, which sells plenty of Coleman and other budget outdoors supplies, along with being a grocery store that sells hotdogs and bags of ice. So to those that say that these sort of projects will lead to these big brand stores cannibalizing each other, it is already in happening in the suburbs of Portland.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 07:31 |
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The Strong Towns article linked above rings a bell when thinking about the Cabela's in Buda, Texas. I've shopped there a few times when I lived closer, and it really is massive, with the town water tower next to it decked out in the Cabela's logo. It's where you go to buy cheap ammo if you live anywhere between New Braunfels and the Colorado River. There's a prominent taxidermied animal exhibit, an aquarium with some (big rear end) fish, an antique used-gun exhibit dressed up like a museum. It's a camo-wearing, American-flag-waving symbol of rural America. (Also the Cabela's parking lot is one of the few places I've been openly called a "human being" by a complete stranger. So there you go.) Partially in the store's defense, one of the problems for Buda is that there wasn't much of a local economy before the store came. It was a poor, rural town that started being settled by Austin commuters in significant numbers in the early 2000s as the economy was doing well. The city brought in Cabela's, which was meant to anchor a big development project ... then the recession hit. I haven't been by lately, but for years after 2008 you had Cabela's, Walmart and HEB (Texas grocery chain) anchoring one side of the freeway, and a new hospital on the other. And you had big, empty signs already completed for all the other big box stores that were supposed to come but never did. This study also shows that sales tax revenue boomed in the first two years of Cabela's being in the city, but then took a major hit during the recession, because Cabela's is in precisely the kind of business that suffers the most during a recession: specialized grown-up toys and recreational luxury goods. But Cabela's also brought in Walmart and HEB. Buda didn't (I believe) even had a grocery store until then -- people had to go to Austin or San Marcos. The other thing is that Cabela's isn't guaranteed money from the city unless the company meets a sales tax quota, which they haven't. Cabela's has to pay up the difference. I have to say the original article isn't convincing me that this was a bad idea. But I think the promises were also overstated and the city took a big risk. A better way of putting it would say it wasn't the best decision they could have made, as it put all their eggs in a specialized hunting equipment basket, but it wasn't necessarily a bad one. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jul 16, 2014 |
# ? Jul 16, 2014 07:55 |
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computer parts posted:Actually raising money to buy the store sounds unusual to me but I know of a city nearby where they essentially gave the land to Walmart for free so they could build a store. My understanding of it is that big businesses that want to expand into an area (there, of course, being no area they do NOT want to expand into) they'll contact local governments in the area to see who will give them the best deal. The local governments, of course, will fall over each other trying to give the most poo poo to the big store. If memory serves when Walmart moved into the area I'm from originally the jurisdiction that "won" that battle not only handed them free land but made them exempt from all local taxes for like seven years. Guess what that did to a great many local stores. There has been similar crap going on in malls and what have you for a very long time as well. Malls would often sign deals where a big, recognizable store with strong branding would agree to move in only if the mall would give them a cut on the rent because, hey, people will go to shop there because they recognize it. Everybody wins! Then they would proceed to actively annihilate the local competition. Yup, totally a free market where all competition is perfectly fair and companies rise and fall based solely on how good they are at what they do and most certainly not because massive behemoths squash everything else around them.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 09:21 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Nah. The problem is that capital is so strong that it can coerce local (and state, and most of the time federal) governments with race to the bottom rhetoric. Either you give us these sweet tax breaks, or we go build over in Shelbyville where they've already promised X tax breaks. It doesn't seem patronizing at all to suggest that the elite of a small town will still not come close to the combined might of an army of corporate lawyers, accountants, and so on. poo poo, most people on these small town boards have real jobs and the board is just a side gig. I don't think people are saying they are stupid, they just are heavily outgunned. e: though the race to the bottom stuff plays a roll too, of course. tsa fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 16, 2014 |
# ? Jul 16, 2014 19:33 |
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Its Tezzy. He only posted it because ZOMG GUUUUNS! Otherwise he couldn't care less. This is a thing that is done for literally every big box store ever. Yup. There's several acres of empty lot down the street from me that the city paid to clear an old shopping mall off of, buying out all the stores still in it to make room for a Walmart... which decided not to go in at the last minute because the city wouldn't agree to a 10-year property tax amnesty in exchange for building there. This poo poo happens all the time.
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# ? Jul 16, 2014 20:49 |
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Government subsidies for the rich, free markets for the little people
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 00:32 |
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It all reeks of graft and kickbacks.
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 01:51 |
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El Scotch posted:It all reeks of graft and kickbacks. I'd like to know how many city council members got building contracts or management jobs with these companies.
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 04:02 |
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VideoTapir posted:I'd like to know how many city council members got building contracts or management jobs with these companies. I'd guess it's far fewer than you seem to think. When I discuss this with other people in my field, we all tend to agree that these council votes generally arise out of a poor understanding of economic development rather than corruption or kickbacks.
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 04:06 |
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Cabela's is weird, I grew up going to REI and never went to a Cabela's until I was in my 20's. It's like REI for reactionaries. Good deals on ammo sometimes though. I'm sure REI gets sweet tax deals as well, did you know they sell pocketknives and axes there?? Merchants of death.
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 04:14 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 07:14 |
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pig slut lisa posted:I'd guess it's far fewer than you seem to think. When I discuss this with other people in my field, we all tend to agree that these council votes generally arise out of a poor understanding of economic development rather than corruption or kickbacks. Yep, I'd guess very few to none, these small games don't work like weapons contracts or whatever, walmarts not going to give joe america in nowheresville a cushy job because he voted for them. Mayyybe a contract, but usually they have their own development companies for that. To add on to your other part the whole "oh but they'll just move to the next town over if we don't accept their proposal" is part of the poor understanding because a lot of the time (not always of course) it's a complete bluff on the part of the company. In many cases the spot they chose is the only spot that makes economic sense. The town they pick is usually the biggest in the area, functioning as essentially a mini-city to the surrounding rural farming communities and most often it is near an intersection of two major state roads or highways, ensuring tons of traffic. Sometimes the best sweetheart tax break in the world isn't worth losing those things.
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# ? Jul 21, 2014 04:40 |