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Cercadelmar posted:The blame for lowered wages should be placed solely on the farms underpaying and exploiting their workers, not on the workers themselves. I disagree to a point, as they accept these wages and violate zoning and other laws to be able to do so, and business will always exploit and underpay when they can get away with it. Labor needs an equal playing field to compete, and we should not be racing to the bottom and trashing our living standards to do so. But all that said, regardless of their complicity in the arrangement, it's up to the Government to fix the issue. Amnesty for lack of documentation, access to documentation and work visas/residency, and enforcement of zoning/insurance requirements will fix it. I would however, prefer if they had to go through background checks and prove they're a productive member of society before becoming a citizen eligible to vote. 3 years should be plenty of an opportunity to prove you can pay your taxes and remain employed enough to not rely on social services to survive.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:29
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Talmonis posted:I would however, prefer if they had to go through background checks and prove they're a productive member of society before becoming a citizen eligible to vote. 3 years should be plenty of an opportunity to prove you can pay your taxes and remain employed enough to not rely on social services to survive. I rely on a social service to survive and have for what will be going on 3 years at this point, am I no longer allowed to vote?
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Jul 17, 2014 17:31
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Talmonis posted:I disagree to a point, as they accept these wages and violate zoning and other laws to be able to do so, and business will always exploit and underpay when they can get away with it. Labor needs an equal playing field to compete, and we should not be racing to the bottom and trashing our living standards to do so. But all that said, regardless of their complicity in the arrangement, it's up to the Government to fix the issue. Amnesty for lack of documentation, access to documentation and work visas/residency, and enforcement of zoning/insurance requirements will fix it. Although I disagree with the second half of your post, I completely agree that we shouldn't be racing to the bottom and accepting lower wages for hard work. That's why I'd rather that all residents of the US be given the same protections from exploitative labor, like minimum wage and OSHA regulation. If we were to fund stronger regulatory bodies to ensure that no workers are exploited the problem of lowering living standards would be alleviated. A group that does excellent undocumented workers advocacy is Southern Poverty Law Center and they have a good summary and list of what is being done to protect workers rights.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:42
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Amused to Death posted:I rely on a social service to survive and have for what will be going on 3 years at this point, am I no longer allowed to vote? You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:13
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Talmonis posted:You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves. Which is probably why we shouldn't say "border is open, everyone gets green cards who shows up". Holding that standard to people already here though is inane because it's an impossible standard, especially when the people we're talking about tend to be poor people. I mean if someone has kids they're automatically going to be a burden until those kids are out of school. Plus the expansion of Medicaid means that a whole lot of people will be dependent on a government service for a good portion of their lives.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:19
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Talmonis posted:You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves. Yes, tying residency to employment when unemployment is between 7-12% is a good idea.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:19
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computer parts posted:Yes, tying residency to employment when unemployment is between 7-12% is a good idea. If we have mass unemployment, adding more people without jobs is a terrible idea.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:30
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Talmonis posted:If we have mass unemployment, adding more people without jobs is a terrible idea. What you're proposing is that if anyone came to the country within 3 years of a recession they should pack up and leave.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:31
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Amused to Death posted:Which is probably why we shouldn't say "border is open, everyone gets green cards who shows up". Holding that standard to people already here though is inane because it's an impossible standard, especially when the people we're talking about tend to be poor people. I mean if someone has kids they're automatically going to be a burden until those kids are out of school. Plus the expansion of Medicaid means that a whole lot of people will be dependent on a government service for a good portion of their lives. This is a good point. People already here should be given citizenship after a background check for criminality. Though I think my standard is just fine for any new arrivals. We need to have some kind of standards.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:32
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Talmonis posted:You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves. Generally the people who choose to emigrate are the ones who are healthy enough to find work in America, or who have family or friends already in America to care for them. In both cases the cost to support the "desperate, disabled and handicapped" would be either irrelevant, or handled by their family and friends. In the case of a person becoming disabled after coming to America, it would be wrong to not provide basic assistance. Also like computer parts said, steady work is sometimes hard to find, even during an economic high point. Call me naive, but I feel the vast majority of people want to be self sufficient and hardworking. What you're saying is the same sort of argument that's used to deprive people of necessary social welfare and assistance.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:33
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Cercadelmar posted:Generally the people who choose to emigrate are the ones who are healthy enough to find work in America, or who have family or friends already in America to care for them. In both cases the cost to support the "desperate, disabled and handicapped" would be either irrelevant, or handled by their family and friends. In the case of a person becoming disabled after coming to America, it would be wrong to not provide basic assistance. Also like computer parts said, steady work is sometimes hard to find, even during an economic high point. Call me naive, but I feel the vast majority of people want to be self sufficient and hardworking. What you're saying is the same sort of argument that's used to deprive people of necessary social welfare and assistance. I don't disagree with you. I'm saying that if we totally open the borders and immigration, other countries will straight up dump people they don't want on our shores like Californian communities do with their homeless populations.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:37
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Talmonis posted:This is a good point. People already here should be given citizenship after a background check for criminality. Though I think my standard is just fine for any new arrivals. We need to have some kind of standards. If you're going to set standards, you set the standards so it applies to people before they even enter the country. You don't let someone enter the country and go "Well you can live here, assuming you don't get laid off or the economy doesn't tank, otherwise good luck bro"
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Jul 17, 2014 18:38
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computer parts posted:What you're proposing is that if anyone came to the country within 3 years of a recession they should pack up and leave. And what you're proposing is paying for unemployed foreign nationals to live here at the expense of the employed. You'll validate the bullshit claims of every Tea Party racist around.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:41
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Amused to Death posted:If you're going to set standards, you set the standards so it applies to people before they even enter the country. You don't let someone enter the country and go "Well you can live here, assuming you don't get laid off or the economy doesn't tank, otherwise good luck bro" The problem is we don't have any proposals to stop people from entering the country illegally that doesn't involve roving bands of armed rednecks.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:43
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Talmonis posted:The problem is we don't have any proposals to stop people from entering the country illegally that doesn't involve roving bands of armed rednecks. Make employers actually check SS numbers, boom, I solved the problem.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:44
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Amused to Death posted:Make employers actually check SS numbers, boom, I solved the problem. Partially, yes. We still need to help the people still here with documentation.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:46
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Talmonis posted:Partially, yes. We still need to help the people still here with documentation. 1. Give amnesty and legal documentation to people here 2. Make employers actually check SS numbers This isn't hard issue to solve.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:48
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Talmonis posted:And what you're proposing is paying for unemployed foreign nationals to live here at the expense of the employed. You'll validate the bullshit claims of every Tea Party racist around. The Tea Party racists are already validated because unemployed
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Jul 17, 2014 18:52
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computer parts posted:The Tea Party racists are already validated because unemployed Huh? WTH are you talking about?
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Jul 17, 2014 18:54
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mcmagic posted:Huh? WTH are you talking about? His argument was "we can't do this because otherwise Tea Partiers will feel vindicated in their complaints!" Tea Partiers already feel vindicated in their complaints.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:58
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Since this is the closest thing to an immigration thread, I thought I'd post this here: the wonders of the private prison system have found its true niche in immigration related detentions, as they can be as arbitrary as they want without fear of repercussion: http://lbcommuter.com/2014/09/29/houston-trap-broken-immigration-system/ The short version: Brazilian citizen with a green card who has lived in the US for years is detained at a private Houston detention center for 28 days because some 7 years ago she had to pay a fine when the police found a bong in her car. The misdemeanor conviction itself is not even on her record anymore, but the Houston agent saw the arrest on her record. In a Portuguese version of the story she says the agent told her she should have come in through Chicago (where she normally flies in, as she's been to Brazil multiple times since then), because they "take drugs seriously at Houston."
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Oct 1, 2014 16:47
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