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Cercadelmar posted:I never mentioned price hikes, I think you've misinterpreted why I think this is a dumb idea. Gotcha. Yeah it isn't currently feasible to fund infastructure projects, but it would be if we cut military spending to a reasonable first world level, and raised capital gains taxes. So you know, fantasy land. Depressing.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:06
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Talmonis posted:But why would we remove all restrictions? That could easily collapse the social programs we have, and drive wages into the dirt with a massive influx of cheap labor. Hell, you could have China or India up and send a few million people over to gently caress with the political system in their favor. Nations would start sending their most destitute, their criminals and their disabled, simply to be rid of them. Restrictions do have a purpose, even if the current purpose is a lovely one. For some reason some ignore that the countries with excellent welfare and social programs universally have extremely strict immigration policies. Almost as if the two go hand in hand. mdemone posted:Give me your skilled, your suburban, It's like we no longer need millions of unskilled laborers to exploit in factories that don't exist anymore. Is it really people's argument that we need to forever keep the immigration policy of the early 1900s, because that seems kinda dumb. Oh no millions of people are no longer coming here to be worked to death, crushed in a random machine, or turned into chili, the horror!
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Jul 16, 2014 18:23
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Talmonis posted:Gotcha. Yeah it isn't currently feasible to fund infastructure projects, but it would be if we cut military spending to a reasonable first world level, and raised capital gains taxes. Actually, it's entirely feasible to fund infrastructure with or without cuts to military spending, there just isn't the will.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:28
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on the left posted:People with exceptional skills and people from countries with roughly reciprocal immigration policies towards the US. If your country denies visas to US citizens, prepare to see your petitions denied. This does create a potential moral problem of actively brain draining poor nations. Cercadelmar posted:What makes your spouse so special that they deserve citizenship more than the people already living and working here? The only moral immigration is my immigration
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Jul 16, 2014 18:35
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Talmonis posted:Gotcha. Yeah it isn't currently feasible to fund infastructure projects, but it would be if we cut military spending to a reasonable first world level, and raised capital gains taxes. Other first world military spending is subsidized by our own (specifically the Navy but also any other conflicts in which the US and Europe are involved).
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Jul 16, 2014 18:51
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Cercadelmar posted:What makes your spouse so special that they deserve citizenship more than the people already living and working here? While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:59
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tsa posted:For some reason some ignore that the countries with excellent welfare and social programs universally have extremely strict immigration policies. Almost as if the two go hand in hand. What do you suggest should be done about how we handle immigrants today? BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. What bothers me is how much he disregards the struggle of being undocumented in America today. It isn't "Costanzaing" around like he described, and the fact that he'd say that just makes him seem ignorant of the realities of immigrant life today.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:06
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. There was a story on MSNBC last night about a girl who went through Mexico to get to the US and was violently raped repeatedly on her travels here. Somehow I think his wife would prefer bureaucracy.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:07
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. They're not informed ahead of time because of the potential violence and political consequences that the right will shower them with.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:26
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on the left posted:The better we get at stopping the parents, the less and less we will have the problem in the first place. Also, presumably there is education in the country we are sending them back to. They deport tens of thousands of illegal immigrants per year, more than Bush ever did. If you have a problem with the unfairness of the law that makes it arbitrarily difficult, get mad at the law.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:34
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. No it's pretty called for when he's basically Lou Dobbs.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:36
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Cercadelmar posted:What makes your spouse so special that they deserve citizenship more than the people already living and working here? Because a spouse of a US Citizen has the highest preference category of any immigrant according to USCIS. Essentially they go first in line for green card processing and in some cases can have the residency requirement for US citizenship reduced from 5 years to 3.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:53
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Big K of Justice posted:Because a spouse of a US Citizen has the highest preference category of any immigrant according to USCIS. Essentially they go first in line for green card processing and in some cases can have the residency requirement for US citizenship reduced from 5 years to 3. Not even this is a sure thing. My friend married his Canadian wife, and the agent involved in their case screwed them and she's not allowed in the country, and she already has a degree, and it wasn't like they had any kind of contingency plan, they assumed it would be a normal process considering this magical 'preference'.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:59
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Nonsense posted:Not even this is a sure thing. My friend married his Canadian wife, and the agent involved in their case screwed them and she's not allowed in the country, and she already has a degree, and it wasn't like they had any kind of contingency plan, they assumed it would be a normal process considering this magical 'preference'. It's actually easier if you don't marry them until they come into the US, at least in terms of providing evidence to give them a visa.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:01
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Cercadelmar posted:What bothers me is how much he disregards the struggle of being undocumented in America today. It isn't "Costanzaing" around like he described, and the fact that he'd say that just makes him seem ignorant of the realities of immigrant life today. I quite intimately know a number of illegal immigrants, and my experience with this has really soured me to the way its handled in the US. In my cousin's case, the very least they could do is deport him when he got picked up for DUI, or at least do some work to discover he's committed some major crimes back in Guatemala, but both of those have been made impossible to do by well-meaning but ignorant activists and politicians. Tezzor posted:They deport tens of thousands of illegal immigrants per year, more than Bush ever did. If you have a problem with the unfairness of the law that makes it arbitrarily difficult, get mad at the law. Wow, literally thousands of illegal immigrants, out of the millions in the US. Good job Obama. With minor work, we could make it extremely difficult to be an illegal immigrant here. Simply following up on mismatched social security cards filed at businesses would allow us to catch tons of illegal immigrants.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:01
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Nonsense posted:Not even this is a sure thing. My friend married his Canadian wife, and the agent involved in their case screwed them and she's not allowed in the country, and she already has a degree, and it wasn't like they had any kind of contingency plan, they assumed it would be a normal process considering this magical 'preference'. Every time I deal with the USCIS I fly everything across a trusted immigration law firm or two, even for "simple" matters. One wrong answer or something done out of procedure can get everything undone or worse get you subject to a multi-year ban from the US... I've seen a simple mistake spiral way out of control.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:01
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tsa posted:For some reason some ignore that the countries with excellent welfare and social programs universally have extremely strict immigration policies. Almost as if the two go hand in hand This is why it's significantly easier to get into Canada legally than it is the US? I think the effects of allowing essentially unlimited legal immigration are overstated. There would be political problems with maintaining good public services, but I don't think there would be significant practical problems. Wages might stagnate, but if there are good public services I don't think that's that big of a problem.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:11
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icantfindaname posted:This is why it's significantly easier to get into Canada legally than it is the US? It's easier to buy a permanent residency to Canada but that doesn't help poor people that much.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:14
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on the left posted:Wow, literally thousands of illegal immigrants, out of the millions in the US. Good job Obama. So you want to deport 10-12 million people or at least make their lives hell? There'd be a whole neighborhood in my city that was suddenly mostly depopulated(not like it'd happen here anyways, you leave out the part a lot of undocumented people live in sanctuary cities where the good deal of legal citizens also don't want them deported or their lives made harder)
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Jul 17, 2014 01:20
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Amused to Death posted:So you want to deport 10-12 million people or at least make their lives hell? There'd be a whole neighborhood in my city that was suddenly mostly depopulated(not like it'd happen here anyways, you leave out the part a lot of undocumented people live in sanctuary cities where the good deal of legal citizens also don't want them deported or their lives made harder) Just start enforcing the laws as written (i.e. you can't employ someone without working rights), and let the problem take care of itself.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:24
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on the left posted:Just start enforcing the laws as written (i.e. you can't employ someone without working rights), and let the problem take care of itself. But does this come with legal residency for everyone already here?
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Jul 17, 2014 01:30
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Amused to Death posted:But does this come with legal residency for everyone already here? Why should it?
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Jul 17, 2014 02:07
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I agree with on the left. Immigrants are subhuman scum and we should be setting shrapnel landminds along with poisoned water bottles along the border. Perhaps, some sort of, how can I put it... final solution may be in order as well? Any path to citizenship is obviously one to many, they're all taking our jobs anyways right?! See, I too get my opinions from freerepublic dot com.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:17
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Mercury_Storm posted:I agree with on the left. Immigrants are subhuman scum and we should be setting shrapnel landminds along with poisoned water bottles along the border. Perhaps, some sort of, how can I put it... final solution may be in order as well? Any path to citizenship is obviously one to many, they're all taking our jobs anyways right?! See, I too get my opinions from freerepublic dot com. 2/10, didn't mention the tire fire wall.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:22
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computer parts posted:2/10, didn't mention the tire fire wall. Well that's just sort of assumed, isn't it?
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Jul 17, 2014 02:24
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on the left posted:Just start enforcing the laws as written (i.e. you can't employ someone without working rights), and let the problem take care of itself. Why dont we start by ensuring no underage college students drink first. After all, its the law.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:35
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Expel everyone who has ever smoked weed or gone over the speed limit.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:36
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Execute anyone who has ever received or given oral sex in a state that has never had its sodomy laws officially voided or repealed. THE LAW.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:37
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President trying to follow the law, people say he's breaking it, the kids will be sent back to their nation's, but the anger persists because of the EGO of the government to attempt to house these children somewhere for a short period, when I BET the government is putting these monsters into ARE SCHOOLS INFECTING ARE KIDS
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Jul 17, 2014 02:40
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evilweasel posted:Why dont we start by ensuring no underage college students drink first. After all, its the law. It's probably a bad idea to reinforce the idea that employers can casually break labor laws through the regular course of business and get away with it. Nobody here would argue that companies using unpaid interns was a practice that should be tolerated on a similar scale as underage drinking, where everybody does it and only a few people get light punishments that can be chalked up to the cost of doing business.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:43
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on the left posted:It's probably a bad idea to reinforce the idea that employers can casually break labor laws through the regular course of business and get away with it. Nobody here would argue that companies using unpaid interns was a practice that should be tolerated on a similar scale as underage drinking, where everybody does it and only a few people get light punishments that can be chalked up to the cost of doing business. Maybe if we arrested them when they had a beer at 20 they would respect the law even more.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:46
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We have to protect undocumented workers, by barring them from the labor market until they starve or leave their home.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:50
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evilweasel posted:We have to protect undocumented workers, by barring them from the labor market until they starve or leave their home. What's the point of even having immigration laws if we not only allow illegal immigrants to stay, but aggressively protect the right of employers to hire them? The US government doesn't even try that hard to protect the jobs of recent college graduates, as I am sure quite a few posters here will bitterly understand.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:03
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on the left posted:What's the point of even having immigration laws if we not only allow illegal immigrants to stay, but aggressively protect the right of employers to hire them? The US government doesn't even try that hard to protect the jobs of recent college graduates, as I am sure quite a few posters here will bitterly understand. To answer seriously for once: I don't believe we should have them. So I'd agree there's no point, my conclusion is just very different. Even if we 'should' have them, I view violating them like speeding: you've got to have A speed limit but most of the violations are something nobody does or should seriously care about.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:13
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evilweasel posted:To answer seriously for once: I don't believe we should have them. We should absolutely have immigration laws, even if immigration was more or less unrestricted. There are people you don't want in the country at any costs, especially when there's a very real phenomenon of countries exporting their crime and other social problems to the US. If you seriously want to see something resembling open borders, the realistic way to get it done is to negotiate reciprocal labor freedom agreements with other countries.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:20
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Having lovely laws that aren't properly enforced isn't a solution. Isn't that the status quo?
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Jul 17, 2014 03:23
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on the left posted:Why should it? Because it's the pragmatic thing do? Like these people live here, work here and are part of their community. Basically you want to encourage 10-15,000 people of my 135-140,000 person city to self-deport?
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Jul 17, 2014 03:23
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I think on the left is right. After all, if a sudden flood of stories about Central American immigrants managed to springboard illegal immigration to the most important issue for 1 in 6 Americans, then it must be important. (No prize if you can guess what those people probably feel on the issue)
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Jul 17, 2014 03:25
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How about instead of deporting people and then fixing the immigration system you fix the immigration system and then work with people to actually be legally in the country?
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Jul 17, 2014 03:26
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on the left posted:We should absolutely have immigration laws, even if immigration was more or less unrestricted. There are people you don't want in the country at any costs, especially when there's a very real phenomenon of countries exporting their crime and other social problems to the US. I consider "you have a criminal record a mile long" more an exception for a new law to handle than a justification for our whole dumb system. We got where we are by stealing everyone willing to make the journey and I would like to continue robbing the rest of the world of everyone with a shred of motivation.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:43
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