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Petey
Nov 25, 2005

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes

At 1 PM ET today MSNBC will air a (truncated) television version of Underwater Dreams, an incredible documentary about undocumented students from Carl Hayden High School who, a decade ago, beat MIT students in an underwater robotics competition.

e: web livestream - http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

The documentary is getting a lot of press, in part because it's an amazing story, and in part because it's a sad one, as the victorious Carl Hayden students have been unable to attend college or get jobs due to their status:

Jonathan Alter, "These Undocumented Teens Outsmarted MIT—and Still Can't Get Real Jobs in America" posted:

The subtext of the tough talk about the tens of thousands of child refugees flowing up from Central America is that like Mexicans they will be a drag on the American economy—wards of the state who suck taxpayers dry.

Governments at all levels will face short-term costs, of course, but the economic fear of immigrants has never been warranted. Beyond the humanitarian imperative lies a stark historical truth: From Alexander Hamilton to Andy Grove to Elon Musk, new arrivals and their children—toughened by circumstance and self-selected for pluck—have give the United States the energy and drive that has made us great.

Most reasonable people get this. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Sheldon Adelson (!) wrote an op-ed in The New York Times last Friday bemoaning the insanity of training immigrants at our best universities, then forcing them to go home. But in pushing for comprehensive immigration reform, the billionaires seemed most concerned about wealthier émigrés, whom they argued should be allowed to stay if they come with money.

Valid point, but it ignores the fact that poor, undocumented Hispanics—the ones most denigrated by Tea Party know-nothings—have much to offer, too, just as penniless immigrants (i.e. your ancestors) always have.

Those scraggly Latino kids on the corner you might think are thugs could be the next Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg if given half a chance.

To understand why that's more than a platitude, check out Underwater Dreams, a seemingly modest human interest film that may be the most politically significant documentary since Waiting for Superman. (It opened in Los Angeles and New York on July 11 and can be seen on cable later this month).

The film tells the story of four undocumented Mexican teenagers who are members of a robotics club at Carl Hayden High School in the barrio of Phoenix; their parents speak no English, and their own horizons are limited.

With the help of dedicated teachers, they build an underwater robot and enter a grueling collegiate competition held at the University of California, Santa Barbara in 2004. The boys figure they might learn something from the older college-age engineers showing off their robots.


The Carl Hayden team— Christian Arcega, Lorenzo Santillan, Luis Aranda, and Oscar Vasquez—get off to a bad start when their robot, nicknamed “Stinky,” takes on water during a practice round on the first day. In one of the film’s many humorous moments, they buy a box of tampons that turn out to have the perfect absorbency for plugging Stinky’s leaks.

After Carl Hayden does the impossible and beats MIT for first place, the film takes a disturbing turn that left me and the rest of the preview audience in tears.

A decade after the competition, MIT professors invited the winners to Cambridge, Massachusetts for a reunion with the MIT team they beat. Not surprisingly, the losers were now winning engineers; one of the MIT graduates had gone on to invent ear buds for Apple.


The undocumented winners haven’t done so well. Christian, who had finished second in his high school class, was forced to drop out of community college in 2006 under the harsh terms of Arizona’s Proposition 300, which denies state aid to undocumented students. Lorenzo went to culinary school and started a small catering company, where Luis, a janitorial supervisor, helps out. Oscar, hoping to join the Army and become legal, turned himself in to the authorities, who deported him to Mexico. When their story reached Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL), Oscar was allowed to come back to the United States and join the Army, where he served with distinction in Afghanistan. At present, he’s the only one working in a STEM-related business.

When the filmmaker, Mary Mazzio, showed the film to college students, a few wanted her to cut the MIT reunion scene because it made them uncomfortable. “Good,” she told them. “That was my intention. Now go do something about it.”

Anjelica Hernandez, a female member of the 2004 robotics team who is featured in the film but didn’t travel with the boys to Santa Barbara, is taking up the challenge. When I met her, she had just received a master’s in science from Stanford but devotes much of her time to highlighting the injustices committed against tens of thousands of young “Dreamers” who came as children and-- even with President Obama’s 2012 directive--are still having trouble getting legal. It was only last week that a federal court invalidated Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer’s mean-spirited executive order preventing Dreamers from obtaining driver’s licenses.

Imagine Christian, Lorenzo, Luis, Oscar and Anjelica trying to drive to a robotics competition, knowing that if they’re caught without a license, which they can’t legally get, they could be deported.

Now comes a new wave of young immigrants sent north to escape rampant gang violence in Central America.

Before agreeing to give the president the $3.7 billion he requested to hire more judges and otherwise handle the refugee crisis, Republicans in Congress want to toughen the bill and make it easier to deport children. To get the money, Obama will likely yield on the point.

With dreams of immigration reform in 2014 slipping away, attention has turned to next year. Grover Norquist, who is pro-reform, told me recently that Republicans think that if they win control of the Senate they can pass a “legalization” bill that gives immigrants documents but, by denying any path to citizenship, essentially relegates them to being second-class citizens, exploited like those in the guest worker program.

Is that what we want for the students at Carl Hayden High, where the robotics club is still going strong?

Underwater Dreams will be screened soon in the White House. It should also be seen in every high school in the country, where it will inspire thousands of kids, and in Congress, where it might just jolt a few politicians out of their stupor and help them see young people for who they are, and who they can be.
Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...in-america.html

If you can't see the televised version today, you can also see it in AMC Theaters, which has committed to free community screenings in 100 cities.

***

This is a really important documentary because it is so drat sympathetic. I believe it has the potential to influence the immigration reform debate. Its television sponsors certaintly think so:

quote:

Telemundo, mun2, MSNBC and AMC Theaters will feature Underwater Dreams, a new documentary film by award-winning filmmaker Mary Mazzio and narrated by actor Michael Peña. The film chronicles the compelling and inspirational story of four teenage boys, the sons of Mexican immigrants, who entered a sophisticated underwater robotics competition, going up against the likes of engineering powerhouse MIT. The film will be a central pillar of NBCUniversal Hispanic Enterprises and Content’s new nationwide pro-social campaign, Aprender es Triunfar, aimed at closing the Latino student achievement gap, especially in STEM education. In support of reaching many Latino families with this inspirational message, AMC Theatres has committed to hosting up to 100 community screenings, free of charge, at AMCs across the U.S. to enable school and non-profit groups to enjoy the film on the big screen this summer and fall. In addition, in late July, MSNBC, Telemundo and mun2 will broadcast a special television version.


I know we just had the semiannual D&D slapfight over immigration reform in the Vargas thread. If possible, I'd like to steer this thread to be about Underwater Dreams as a political agent. By whom was it constructed? How is it being mobilized in the debate? What are the reactions to / about / around it? And, if others want to watch the televised version today, maybe we can TV/IV a bit about the broadcast version.

Petey fucked around with this message at Jul 20, 2014 around 16:46

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Petey
Nov 25, 2005

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes

Streaming now on the web at: http://www.livenewschat.eu/politics/

buttcoin smuggler
Jun 24, 2011


I don't have anything substantive to say, but this situation saddens me and I hope our immigration policy changes soon. Even putting aside the obvious ethical arguments, the economic benefits alone justify immigration reform. These benefits are even clearer in the case of highly skilled immigrants like the ones in the OP. People with MIT-caliber quantitive abilities are extremely rare, and their capacity for innovation and entrepreneurship often make them the real "job creators."

I haven't heard an argument against less restrictive immigration policy that isn't based in some combination of misinformation and crypto-racism.

buttcoin smuggler fucked around with this message at Jul 20, 2014 around 19:19

Stanos
Sep 22, 2009

The best 57 in hockey.

Pardon me if I don't exactly take something Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Sheldon fuckin' Adelson agree on at face value. If it's for expanding green cards and letting educated people live in America I can get behind that. Perhaps even an offer for people who go to school here. But I have this sneaking urge they don't give a poo poo about that and just want to expand H1Bs for the carousel of temporary indentured servants.

I do however agree that something needs to be done about the illegal immigrants already here that isn't "a massive wall of burning tires" or plain deportation.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

Stanos posted:

Pardon me if I don't exactly take something Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Sheldon fuckin' Adelson agree on at face value. If it's for expanding green cards and letting educated people live in America I can get behind that. Perhaps even an offer for people who go to school here. But I have this sneaking urge they don't give a poo poo about that and just want to expand H1Bs for the carousel of temporary indentured servants.

I used to have an H1B, and got my green card recently. While I had my visa and then GC sponsored by a company that treated me really well, a lot of my friends at other companies weren't so lucky. They basically got exploited mercilessly, and they couldn't do anything about it because it's so difficult to change employers while on H1B.

While the immigration system is very complex, the indentured servitude problem is relatively easy to fix. The government simply needs to make it trivial to change companies while on H1B. Basically, make it so that the visa is a blanket work authorization in a high-skill position for a set period of time that is not tied to a particular company. Once market forces are allowed to operate on the supply of H1B workers, these companies will suddenly start treating them a lot better, and paying them a lot more too.

As for undocumented workers, it's a very complicated problem. I totally sympathize with people who are sneaking into America to escape from violence in their home countries. While I immigrated through legal means, it was because I had the ability on top of a ton of luck. The stars sort of aligned for me, and they did so multiple times. Not everyone has the opportunity to do so. In fact, most people don't. I'm not in favor of deporting those people or their kids, because that's the equivalent of condemning them to a life of unspeakable horrors, or even death.

Petey
Nov 25, 2005

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes

Stanos posted:

Pardon me if I don't exactly take something Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Sheldon fuckin' Adelson agree on at face value. If it's for expanding green cards and letting educated people live in America I can get behind that. Perhaps even an offer for people who go to school here. But I have this sneaking urge they don't give a poo poo about that and just want to expand H1Bs for the carousel of temporary indentured servants.

I do however agree that something needs to be done about the illegal immigrants already here that isn't "a massive wall of burning tires" or plain deportation.

Your skepticism of tech companies' interest in immigration reform is warranted.

In this case, however, we have a group of students who were brought here as children, came to school, and are fully American except for a piece of paper saying so. Per your second point, it is very important, for many reasons, that we find a way to allow them to be at home.

tsa
Feb 3, 2014


Hugely expanding h1b's would be a great way to get the vast majority of americans against immigration reform- lots of people support it so long as the jobs being affected are poor people jobs.

Petey posted:

Your skepticism of tech companies' interest in immigration reform is warranted.

In this case, however, we have a group of students who were brought here as children, came to school, and are fully American except for a piece of paper saying so. Per your second point, it is very important, for many reasons, that we find a way to allow them to be at home.

People who have lived here since childhood and have no other home should certainly be complete citizens, that seems obvious.

buttcoin smuggler posted:

I don't have anything substantive to say, but this situation saddens me and I hope our immigration policy changes soon. Even putting aside the obvious ethical arguments, the economic benefits alone justify immigration reform. These benefits are even clearer in the case of highly skilled immigrants like the ones in the OP. People with MIT-caliber quantitive abilities are extremely rare, and their capacity for innovation and entrepreneurship often make them the real "job creators."

I haven't heard an argument against less restrictive immigration policy that isn't based in some combination of misinformation and crypto-racism.

Economic benefits for whom is the question- and if the only thing that changes is we let more immigrants in to be exploited without changing the labor laws I bet you can guess who the "whom" is. Besides that strict immigration laws are hardly an american thing and are present in most countries with strong welfare systems.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

tsa posted:

Besides that strict immigration laws are hardly an american thing and are present in most countries with strong welfare systems.

An American friend of mine emigrated to Australia. He got his residency in two years, and full citizenship two years after that. This is in contrast to America, where the welfare system is utter poo poo and it takes anywhere from 10-20 years to become a citizen.

Spain gives residency to anyone who buys a house there.

I could go on.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

A homeless person was out on the street, looked up at me and said, "Draft Manziel." Just like that.

And that convinced me, that the Cleveland Browns' fans wanted Manziel.

enraged_camel posted:

An American friend of mine emigrated to Australia. He got his residency in two years, and full citizenship two years after that. This is in contrast to America, where the welfare system is utter poo poo and it takes anywhere from 10-20 years to become a citizen.

Spain gives residency to anyone who buys a house there.

I could go on.

A lot of immigration systems are biased to the wealthy (Spain as you mentioned, Canada is also similar), which is fundamentally different from the usual issues that plague the US regarding immigration.

A reform to the H1B system though or something like the article mentioned would probably be in line with that though.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



enraged_camel posted:

An American friend of mine emigrated to Australia. He got his residency in two years, and full citizenship two years after that. This is in contrast to America, where the welfare system is utter poo poo and it takes anywhere from 10-20 years to become a citizen.

Spain gives residency to anyone who buys a house there.

I could go on.

I don't think Spain is the example you want to use for a nation of immigrants.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

Bip Roberts posted:

I don't think Spain is the example you want to use for a nation of immigrants.

Who said anything about them being a nation of immigrants? That's not what is being discussed at all. Please read more carefully.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

computer parts posted:

A lot of immigration systems are biased to the wealthy (Spain as you mentioned, Canada is also similar), which is fundamentally different from the usual issues that plague the US regarding immigration.

A reform to the H1B system though or something like the article mentioned would probably be in line with that though.

You are kidding right? America has a visa category specifically for rich foreigners. It's called the "emigrant investor" visa.

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united...igrant-investor

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO ANY DISCUSSION EVER. IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME YOU ARE WASTING EVEN AS PALTRY A RESOURCE AS INTERNET FORUM SPACE. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING ME FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS GIMMICK FOR YEARS.

I'm skeptical about claims that other countries handle immigration better than the States. It's a poo poo show in the US for sure but everything I've seen as an expat in the West and east leaves me to believe it's even worse elsewhere.

And all the statements about how easy it is to get residency elsewhere always ends up based on an educated white professional applying.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

A homeless person was out on the street, looked up at me and said, "Draft Manziel." Just like that.

And that convinced me, that the Cleveland Browns' fans wanted Manziel.

enraged_camel posted:

You are kidding right? America has a visa category specifically for rich foreigners. It's called the "emigrant investor" visa.

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united...igrant-investor

Yeah, but it's not as permissive as "buy a house, get permanant residency". The point in any case was that most of the US's immigration problems would remain unsolved if you only focused on rich immigration.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013


buttcoin smuggler posted:

I don't have anything substantive to say, but this situation saddens me and I hope our immigration policy changes soon. Even putting aside the obvious ethical arguments, the economic benefits alone justify immigration reform. These benefits are even clearer in the case of highly skilled immigrants like the ones in the OP. People with MIT-caliber quantitive abilities are extremely rare, and their capacity for innovation and entrepreneurship often make them the real "job creators."

I haven't heard an argument against less restrictive immigration policy that isn't based in some combination of misinformation and crypto-racism.

The subject of the documentary is only tangentially related to the issue of skilled immigration though, which indicates that the PR campaign behind it is really good. The real issue behind the documentary is how should we handle unskilled immigration, and while many people agree that we should allow people who came here as children to stay, there's an implicit suggestion that illegal immigration should continue unabated, and this is a bad idea for many reasons.

Xae
Jan 19, 2005



tsa posted:

Hugely expanding h1b's would be a great way to get the vast majority of americans against immigration reform- lots of people support it so long as the jobs being affected are poor people jobs.

H1Bs shouldn't have a number cap. But they should have a minimum wage, say $150,000/yr tied to inflation.

Let companies bring over all the experts in whatever field they can dream up. But stop bringing over 22 year olds and paying them $20K/yr to work in entry level IT jobs.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

Xae posted:

H1Bs shouldn't have a number cap. But they should have a minimum wage, say $150,000/yr tied to inflation.

Let companies bring over all the experts in whatever field they can dream up. But stop bringing over 22 year olds and paying them $20K/yr to work in entry level IT jobs.

H1B is not just about "experts." It's about skilled labor in general.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



enraged_camel posted:

Who said anything about them being a nation of immigrants? That's not what is being discussed at all. Please read more carefully.

I'm not sure why you're so huffy but you were talking about the differences between getting a visa in the US and Spain. The fact that Spain has essentially zero to a rounding error immigration before the mid nineties invalidates them for a qualitative comparison.

Cercadelmar
Jan 4, 2014


Mun2 is showing this movie again at 4p/3c today. Will be watching, looking forward to it already. Hopefully we can talk about the movie once more people have seen it.

Stanos
Sep 22, 2009

The best 57 in hockey.

enraged_camel posted:

H1B is not just about "experts." It's about skilled labor in general.

Are you trying to suggest there's a dearth of people who could be trained to be Help Desk?

Whenever I hear the garbage about 'There's not enough (x) to keep up with business demands!' I automatically plug in '...but we're unwilling to train them' or '...at the prices we are willing to pay' and it suddenly makes a hell of a lot more sense. When 9 of the top 10 companies that suck up H1Bs are outsourcing companies based in India, the system is busted. Train the people here and make H1Bs for stuff that's actually difficult to find. Then pay them like you would an American and ENFORCE IT. poo poo, the whole thread was started because of the really smart people here who are unable to get jobs because they are undocumented. I'm sure there's quite a few of them out there that could be trained to fix the demand issue!

Except that doesn't fit into the system of short term profits for long term losses.

ReindeerF
Apr 20, 2002

Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro


computer parts posted:

Yeah, but it's not as permissive as "buy a house, get permanant residency". The point in any case was that most of the US's immigration problems would remain unsolved if you only focused on rich immigration.
It is pretty much exactly that permissive. It's why the mainland Chinese are buying in droves. I mean if you want to quibble over the massively important distinction between de facto permanent residency and official permanent residency, go ahead, but they get a green card for the duration of their investment.

I live a life where I have de facto permanent residency and not official and it's negligible. There are restrictions, but there are always restrictions everywhere. You can own and work in a business in Thailand, but you have to have 2MM in registered capital and four Thai employees (if you're not married). Whatever the restrictions, you still own and work in a business if you meet them. If I close my business or change companies, guess what? I have to find a new way to stay.

However, if I were on the investment visa program, which exists, it's simple. You stick the money in, get it registered and you're done. If you're a Chinese factory boss worth 500MM dollars, then it's not even scarcely an issue.

Cercadelmar
Jan 4, 2014


I feel like you guys missed the point of this movie.

quote:

Most reasonable people get this. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Sheldon Adelson (!) wrote an op-ed in The New York Times last Friday bemoaning the insanity of training immigrants at our best universities, then forcing them to go home. But in pushing for comprehensive immigration reform, the billionaires seemed most concerned about wealthier émigrés, whom they argued should be allowed to stay if they come with money.

Valid point, but it ignores the fact that poor, undocumented Hispanics—the ones most denigrated by Tea Party know-nothings—have much to offer, too, just as penniless immigrants (i.e. your ancestors) always have.

Those scraggly Latino kids on the corner you might think are thugs could be the next Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg if given half a chance.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009


Xae posted:

H1Bs shouldn't have a number cap. But they should have a minimum wage, say $150,000/yr tied to inflation.


$150,000 is way way too high and would actually price out a lot of talented people out of entry level jobs, which are usually around $60-80k/year in tech.

quote:

Let companies bring over all the experts in whatever field they can dream up. But stop bringing over 22 year olds and paying them $20K/yr to work in entry level IT jobs.
Or just stop making H1B1 lottery based.

Cercadelmar
Jan 4, 2014


30 minutes till it's rebroadcast, I think that all of the channels that ran it yesterday (MSNBC, Mun2, Telemundo) will be running it today. I know for a fact it'll be on Mun2.

Edit: Starts out pretty fun, very endearing.

Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at Jul 21, 2014 around 20:08

Cercadelmar
Jan 4, 2014


Alright, I just finished watching the tv version of this movie.

I love what this film is trying to do. The whole immigration debate is so dehumanizing to undocumented citizens so it's good to see media putting a face on immigrants.

This movie brings me back to highschool. People don't expect much from young Hispanics, and it's only worse if you're undocumented. I knew a few people who didn't have papers back then and things weren't much better. Dropping out was pretty common back then. Hopefully films like this are signals of change.

Petey, you mentioned the film version was different, were there any major differences?

Petey
Nov 25, 2005

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes

Cercadelmar posted:

Petey, you mentioned the film version was different, were there any major differences?

Well, it's half again as long, so I think the story is just much more coherent. I know the students and I think Mazzio did well by them in both versions though (and they think so too).

There will be a big showing at the Museum of Science on Aug 7th (Mazzio is from Boston) w/ lots of politicos and I hear there will be a "major announcement" this week. Of what, I'm not sure.

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

Stanos posted:

Are you trying to suggest there's a dearth of people who could be trained to be Help Desk?

Whenever I hear the garbage about 'There's not enough (x) to keep up with business demands!' I automatically plug in '...but we're unwilling to train them' or '...at the prices we are willing to pay' and it suddenly makes a hell of a lot more sense. When 9 of the top 10 companies that suck up H1Bs are outsourcing companies based in India, the system is busted. Train the people here and make H1Bs for stuff that's actually difficult to find. Then pay them like you would an American and ENFORCE IT. poo poo, the whole thread was started because of the really smart people here who are unable to get jobs because they are undocumented. I'm sure there's quite a few of them out there that could be trained to fix the demand issue!

Except that doesn't fit into the system of short term profits for long term losses.

I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages.

You guys enjoyed your golden years after World War 2 and you prospered while other Western nations were rebuilding. Grats! That time period is behind us however. This is the age of global competition and you have to earn those jobs that everyone is competing for. The American Dream is over. Welcome to real life! Foreign companies have developed industries now, and they are marketing their much-more-cheaply-produced goods in America, which means American companies are under pressure to also reduce their costs. You can't have your Samsung Galaxy S5 and eat it too, you know.

SedanChair
Jun 1, 2003



enraged_camel posted:

I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages.

You guys enjoyed your golden years after World War 2 and you prospered while other Western nations were rebuilding. Grats! That time period is behind us however. This is the age of global competition and you have to earn those jobs that everyone is competing for. The American Dream is over. Welcome to real life! Foreign companies have developed industries now, and they are marketing their much-more-cheaply-produced goods in America, which means American companies are under pressure to also reduce their costs. You can't have your Samsung Galaxy S5 and eat it too, you know.

Good point, we've been so selfish--whoops your mask fell off Mr. Bezos, check your straps

Cercadelmar
Jan 4, 2014


Petey posted:

Well, it's half again as long, so I think the story is just much more coherent. I know the students and I think Mazzio did well by them in both versions though (and they think so too).

There will be a big showing at the Museum of Science on Aug 7th (Mazzio is from Boston) w/ lots of politicos and I hear there will be a "major announcement" this week. Of what, I'm not sure.

Yeah, the tv version moved pretty fast and I would have enjoyed spending more time from scene to scene. I still liked watching it, though I hope it'll come out soon on something like netflix.

No one here would have happened to have seen Documented? I enjoyed Jose's essays on being undocumented and would like to hear about his film.

Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2014 around 17:37

on the left
Nov 2, 2013


SedanChair posted:

Good point, we've been so selfish--whoops your mask fell off Mr. Bezos, check your straps

If you didn't want to get replaced by an immigrant, you should have paid attention in school and/or come from a family that was able to build wealth between 1945-1970. If you did those things, you wouldn't have anything to fear, which explains the demographics of the open-borders crowd.

SedanChair
Jun 1, 2003



on the left posted:

If you didn't want to get replaced by an immigrant, you should have paid attention in school and/or come from a family that was able to build wealth between 1945-1970. If you did those things, you wouldn't have anything to fear, which explains the demographics of the open-borders crowd.

Hey I'm in that crowd because restricting the movement of persons is repugnant to me, I just think it's funny that enraged_camel's whole argument basically boils down to

Badger of Basra
Jul 25, 2007
Don't tell Maliki!

on the left posted:

If you didn't want to get replaced by an immigrant, you should have paid attention in school and/or come from a family that was able to build wealth between 1945-1970. If you did those things, you wouldn't have anything to fear, which explains the demographics of the open-borders crowd.

So do you still think we should just send them all back?

on the left
Nov 2, 2013


Badger of Basra posted:

So do you still think we should just send them all back?

Nah, i've embraced the fact that my political goals will only be furthered by unrestricted immigration. My job will never be at risk due to outsourcing, and I will only benefit from falling prices on a variety of services, especially cheap Mexican food. Also, demographically speaking, we won't even have to try to pretend about the concerns of certain groups anymore.

Stanos
Sep 22, 2009

The best 57 in hockey.

enraged_camel posted:

I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages.

You guys enjoyed your golden years after World War 2 and you prospered while other Western nations were rebuilding. Grats! That time period is behind us however. This is the age of global competition and you have to earn those jobs that everyone is competing for. The American Dream is over. Welcome to real life! Foreign companies have developed industries now, and they are marketing their much-more-cheaply-produced goods in America, which means American companies are under pressure to also reduce their costs. You can't have your Samsung Galaxy S5 and eat it too, you know.



"Hey, that guy looks like he's doing okay! AFTER HIM!"

Dmitri-9
Nov 30, 2004

There's something really sexy about Scrooge McDuck. I love Uncle Scrooge.


enraged_camel posted:

I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages.

You guys enjoyed your golden years after World War 2 and you prospered while other Western nations were rebuilding. Grats! That time period is behind us however. This is the age of global competition and you have to earn those jobs that everyone is competing for. The American Dream is over. Welcome to real life! Foreign companies have developed industries now, and they are marketing their much-more-cheaply-produced goods in America, which means American companies are under pressure to also reduce their costs. You can't have your Samsung Galaxy S5 and eat it too, you know.

Why do workers need to cross national borders to lower wages?

enraged_camel
Jul 4, 2007
Can't make ends meet in the US? Move to Australia! If you need to ask about things such as "economic feasibility" and "logistics" you're just lazy and entitled and better looking than I am

Dmitri-9 posted:

Why do workers need to cross national borders to lower wages?

What?

Dmitri-9
Nov 30, 2004

There's something really sexy about Scrooge McDuck. I love Uncle Scrooge.



What? If american workers really had no marginal value to companies then wages would fall without immigration because the companies would just globalize more. HB1s are just a naked wealth transfer to owners and the only thing the US has to get used to is billionaires with unlimited greed and fat media budgets.

tsa
Feb 3, 2014


enraged_camel posted:

I'm not sure why the USA is special and should be spared from the global trend of downward pressure on wages.

You guys enjoyed your golden years after World War 2 and you prospered while other Western nations were rebuilding. Grats! That time period is behind us however. This is the age of global competition and you have to earn those jobs that everyone is competing for. The American Dream is over. Welcome to real life! Foreign companies have developed industries now, and they are marketing their much-more-cheaply-produced goods in America, which means American companies are under pressure to also reduce their costs. You can't have your Samsung Galaxy S5 and eat it too, you know.

America may be struggling a bit, but everyone else is hurting a lot more and that's what matters. Europe has been teetering for half a decade, china has huge mounting problems and so on.

Inequality has increased worldwide and it's not because of what you are going on about. See Dmitri's post above.

nutranurse
Oct 22, 2012

Unlikeliest of Slash Fics

enraged_camel posted:

This is in contrast to America, where the welfare system is utter poo poo and it takes anywhere from 10-20 years to become a citizen.

I've been in America since I was ~3 (so I've been here for 2 decades now), have only attended American schools, have 2 degrees from an American college, and I'm still having trouble getting my immigration through due to reasons.

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Powercrazy
Feb 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!


Cercadelmar posted:

I feel like you guys missed the point of this movie.

We don't really need any more Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburgs, nor do we need another Jeff Bezos, or Larry Ellison anymore then we need another family of Waltons or Kennedy's. The "Great Man" fairy tale is honestly a pretty destructive outlook that contributes a lot to American Exceptionalism, and the Just World that makes people think poor people are just lazy.

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