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I agree completely with the idea that using immigration would hurt developing countries but is there a way to prevent that in a market based system? My guess is any rich country with a low birth rate would probably resort to immigration to meet their labor needs. I mean, I know if I was born in a third world country and had a special skill set my country could use me a lot more than the rich one but I would still selfishly move for a better life for myself and my family. My guess is due to advances in technology social security would eventually have to find an alternative to the payroll tax anyway. Huragok posted:No, I think it's probably the opposite: a vocal minority spouting their right-wing free market tripe. Most of the devs in my peer group are either apolitical or fairly hardcore lefties. Yeah, I can see this. Libertarians are so extremely vocal it seems like they're everywhere sometimes. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 22:54
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Slobjob Zizek posted:This is only because you have something to lose and want to maintain a bourgeois lifestyle. Technology has helped the truly oppressed around the world band together and fight oppressive regimes. Who cares what the regime has on you, when you can coordinate IED attacks, protests, etc. with ease? The man can't fight true chaos. You sound a lot like one of the Silicon Valley libertarians yourself. "We're ~disrupting~ Big Government with our ~apps~!" I do agree that software developers aren't even majority libertarian, though. The reason the tech industry gets singled out for opprobrium is that people with obnoxious political views are louder and tackier about them than their counterparts in other industries. Wall Street and the oil industry probably attract a lot of people with libertarian or business conservative views, but they don't produce people as publicly obnoxious as Justine Tunney. Ironically, people like Tunney actually have much less of a negative influence than people who quietly lobby regulators, etc. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:14
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WMain00 posted:I'd be curious though as to why you think it's okay to lump software developers into the category of "right wing liberterians". I'm fairly left wing myself, but perhaps I'm in the minority. Go ahead, try and unionize a software shop. Please report back afterwards on how it went.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:18
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:Most young people will never have a pension to fight for and we've all been told by our parents that social security is doomed because our grandparents had too many greedy kids so no one questions that. Pensions and social security are basically getting cut because the millennial generation is too apathetic and hopeless to bother to defend them. Programs that help people don't just magically stick around forever once enacted, because moneyed interests are constantly trying to end them. Old people are the only ones fighting to protect retirement programs for younger people, and we're fully prepared to sacrifice our own futures to spite our own parents, who we're blaming for our own failings. I didn't see the under-30 crowd taking to the streets when Obama put SS and Medicare "on the table", and the same people who complained about how unions only defend lazy old workers while holding back young smarter workers happily turn around and blame unions for failing to block employers' efforts to cut new pensions. Is it ironic that we're blaming our dying hope of retirement opportunities on the people who are working the hardest - harder even than ourselves - to defend those opportunities for our sakes? If the boomers were really just doing it for themselves, a law that made anyone born after 1980 ineligible for SS would pass with ease, but the older generations have generally resisted efforts to cut SS even when they protect olds and only cut things for current youngs.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:18
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Rime posted:Go ahead, try and unionize a software shop. Please report back afterwards on how it went. The very people you'd be trying to unionize would tell you to gently caress off most likely. quote:I agree completely with the idea that using immigration would hurt developing countries but is there a way to prevent that in a market based system? My guess is any rich country with a low birth rate would probably resort to immigration to meet their labor needs. I mean, I know if I was born in a third world country and had a special skill set my country could use me a lot more than the rich one but I would still selfishly move for a better life for myself and my family. But that's temporary, on the long run population growth will decline everywhere. But hey, at least that sort of resolves unemployment problems and/or pave the way for a more automated  society without the losers it generates today. So maybe we replace SS with guaranteed minimum income for everybody or something.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:19
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Typo posted:The very people you'd be trying to unionize would tell you to gently caress off most likely. Exactly. Because they are slavish Ayn Rand devotees.
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Jul 24, 2014 23:26
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rrrrrrrrrrrt posted:Exactly. Because they are slavish Ayn Rand devotees. Oshit, I did not think about it that way thank you for enlightening me
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Jul 24, 2014 23:28
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Huragok posted:No, I think it's probably the opposite: a vocal minority spouting their right-wing free market tripe. Most of the devs in my peer group are either apolitical or fairly hardcore lefties. Most people who have the time to spend over an hour a day spouting their ideological principles online are usually pretty bonkers and not a great representation of a whole group of people. You kinda need too much time and too little friends to rise to the top of the pile, those who have the most time to write these sort of manifestos are gonna be waaaaay crazier than someone popping online to casually analyze stuff once or twice a day. The sane ones get drowned out because they went off to march in a labor protest or volunteer at planned parenthood while the crazy antisocial sort keep on posting/tweeting a zillion times a day. E: now that I think about it libertarianism is perfect for spouting bullshit online because it's the only ideology I know of where you don't have to do anything to advance it. Just keep posting away and poo poo. Bifner McDoogle fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:38
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Unionization isn't really necessary when employees already have a ton of leverage due to being difficult to replace or easy to lose to a competitor I assume. My guess is this doesn't apply to every software developer though. EA is really the only software company I can think of that has a bad rep for treating employees like poo poo and I'm not even sure that's still the case. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:40
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:Unionization isn't really necessary when employees already have a ton of leverage due to being difficult to replace or easy to lose to a competitor I assume. My guess is this doesn't apply to every software developer though. It's basically this, the only people unionization would help are -bad- software developers, and those other devs/companies don't want within 50 meters of a keyboard anyway. Granted this might be different in the future but then again unionism have not dealt with technological changes very well so I'm not sure if they'll actually be more relevant. E: EA gets to treat people like poo poo (but they still get paid really well anyway) because lots of people wants to make video games so employer leverage is higher Typo fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:47
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:Unionization isn't really necessary when employees already have a ton of leverage due to being difficult to replace or easy to lose to a competitor I assume. My guess is this doesn't apply to every software developer though. This is patently false, there are numerous IT Positions that while we'll paid are ripe with abuse. Granted, there is possibly less but that does not matter. Doesn't ATT Telecom still have a union? Did anyone look at the links I posted? Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:57
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quote:This is patently false, there are numerous IT Positions that while we'll paid are ripe with abuse. I see companies where the average person is really young and work on weekends but plenty of companies I've being to have the average person have wives and kids and are out of the Office after 40 hours/week. There's also a pretty big difference between devs and IT in general, so yeah if you are on the Geek squad you get the lovely end of the deal but that's different than a software dev shop. Typo fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 23:58
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Typo posted:And there are a lot of IT positions which aren't. I mean overtimes and being overworked is real but that's kinda of the reason why you get paid so much in the first place. There are a lot of positions in XYZ industry that aren't either but what is your point? The "free market" doesn't magically end employer abuse no matter how prestigious or skilled the position is. I once overheard a conservation with a senior java developer was threatened by his manager with the following - "Goon, I know we discussed this earlier but you need to stay late again. After all you did just buy a house didn't you?" Typo posted:I mean overtimes and being overworked is real but that's kinda of the reason why you get paid so much in the first place. EDIT - Can't believe I missed this but no this is false. I'm paid because my skill-set is highly desirable not because you're cheap, can't manage and refuse to higher more employees. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 00:47
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rrrrrrrrrrrt posted:Exactly. Because they are slavish Ayn Rand devotees. You are seriously overestimating union support in the United States if you think that.
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Jul 25, 2014 00:54
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Tab8715 posted:There are a lot of positions in XYZ industry that aren't either but what is your point? But it does afford a large degree of protection because you have increased labor bargaining power vice-verse employer bargaining power. Overall, wages and benefits are exceptional good in the tech industry right now (despite wage fixing that you linked to) that unionization is not going to be a popular proposition unless you have an ideological inclination for it. quote:EDIT - Can't believe I missed this but no this is false. I'm paid because my skill-set is highly desirable not because you're cheap, can't manage and refuse to higher more employees. Being paid for highly valued skill-set and being paid for working weekends are not mutually exclusive items and I've seen relatively lower paid jobs (still really good though) which don't expect you to do over 40 hours a week and higher paid jobs which you are expected to put in time for the weekend. Also development is one of those dealies where if you pay one guy $200k who is really good and works overtime can very well be a lot more productive than 4 mediocre/ 50k guys. There really is a shortage of skilled labor in this field and that's why companies like Google have effectively infinite spots for sufficiently talented people, I mean "you're cheap, can't manage and refuse to higher more employees." isn't actually true in most cases. Typo fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 01:14
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This might just be anecdotal, but I feel like the notion that unions would only help "bad developers" is patently false. There are a lot of good devs at my company that get hosed simply because the market is becoming more saturated and it can still be hard to find adequate employment in Florida. It almost feels like a Frank Lutz style trick to get people that will very shortly benefit the most from unionization to write it off before hand. Quality assurance is another part of tech offices that would benefit hugely from unionization. I feel that QA workers are often treated as second class employees at many places simply because they aren't devs while at larger and more successful companies they're treated better.
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Jul 25, 2014 01:15
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Typo posted:It's basically this, the only people unionization would help are -bad- software developers, and those other devs/companies don't want within 50 meters of a keyboard anyway. 
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Jul 25, 2014 01:17
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DeadmansReach posted:This might just be anecdotal, but I feel like the notion that unions would only help "bad developers" is patently false. There are a lot of good devs at my company that get hosed simply because the market is becoming more saturated and it can still be hard to find adequate employment in Florida. It almost feels like a Frank Lutz style trick to get people that will very shortly benefit the most from unionization to write it off before hand. Depending on which type of QA, if you are actually building automated testing systems and stuff yeah you probably get treated well but if you are manually doing UI testing then you probably get treated like crap and if you want try to unionize those go ahead because at least the people you want to unionize might be for it.
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Jul 25, 2014 01:18
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on the left posted:You are missing some finer points regarding depression, anxiety attacks and general sadbrains, but a good start.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:05
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:Unionization isn't really necessary when employees already have a ton of leverage due to being difficult to replace or easy to lose to a competitor I assume. My guess is this doesn't apply to every software developer though. More precisely, employees don't feel like they're being treated like poo poo, but things like the recent scandal about Apple and Google secretly colluding to drive down wages demonstrate that employees are in fact being treated unfairly. In other words, it's more a product of excellent morale management from the companies rather than actually treating employees good (Google in particular is well-known for distracting employees from demanding working conditions by turning the work place into a giant nerd playground). They're still being treated worse than they should be given their bargaining power, but they're being tricked into either feeling good about the mistreatment or being distracted away from it, so they tend to end up exploited.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:16
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Typo posted:No, but you are using a weasel word there, obviously there isn't going to be an "end" to some sort of employer abuse no matter how prestigious or skilled the position because all you need is like 1 or 2 cases of abuse in a industry of millions of people for there to be employer abuse. Hell this is true even with unionization/government regulations. I should used a different such as prevent you didn't answer my question, "There are a lot of positions in XYZ industry that aren't either but what is your point?" Typo posted:But it does afford a large degree of protection because you have increased labor bargaining power vice-verse employer bargaining power. Overall, wages and benefits are exceptional good in the tech industry right now (despite wage fixing that you linked to) that unionization is not going to be a popular proposition unless you have an ideological inclination for it. Increased but your typical STEM Major doesn't hold a candle to a company with billions. That's why there's a need for organized labor. What's exceptional benefits? 45k? 2 weeks PTO? 401k? New equipment? Typo posted:Being paid for highly valued skill-set and being paid for working weekends are not mutually exclusive items and I've seen relatively lower paid jobs (still really good though) which don't expect you to do over 40 hours a week and higher paid jobs which you are expected to put in time for the weekend. It's not only working weekends and what is "lower paid but still good" suppose to mean? Typo posted:Also development is one of those dealies where if you pay one guy $200k who is really good and works overtime can very well be a lot more productive than 4 mediocre/ 50k guys. There really is a shortage of skilled labor in this field and that's why companies like Google have effectively infinite spots for sufficiently talented people, I mean "you're cheap, can't manage and refuse to higher more employees." isn't actually true in most cases. This is ridiculous and a absurd hypothetical situation. Typo posted:I mean "you're cheap, can't manage and refuse to higher more employees." isn't actually true in most cases. What's most cases? I just showed you a 160,000 employee company that threatens their H1-B Visa employees with unemployment if they don't work overtime. If they refuse, they lose their visa and go back to India.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:19
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Typo posted:It's basically this, the only people unionization would help are -bad- software developers, and those other devs/companies don't want within 50 meters of a keyboard anyway. This is the argument leveraged against unions of all types for the past 50 years, but go ahead and keep imagining you're a special snowflake that will command a high price forever regardless of whether you have organized labor protection. 
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Jul 25, 2014 02:30
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Rime posted:This is the argument leveraged against unions of all types for the past 50 years, but go ahead and keep imagining you're a special snowflake that will command a high price forever regardless of whether you have organized labor protection. Too add upon this, yes there will undoubtedly be abuse but what would we rather prefer? Multi-billion dollar corporations losing a few million so that everyone sleeps well in a decent home or leave potential abuse so some business executive can buy a yacht and European vacation home?
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Jul 25, 2014 02:40
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WMain00 posted:Personally I've read Ayn Rand and find her works to be protentious fluff but sadly her ideals seem to have been taken to heart by modern society. Most software developers I've met are fully aware of the work situation they are in, particularly of the strain, excessive work load and times asked, but sadly they've grown used to it. The alernative is unemployment. Rime posted:This is the argument leveraged against unions of all types for the past 50 years, but go ahead and keep imagining you're a special snowflake that will command a high price forever regardless of whether you have organized labor protection.
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Jul 25, 2014 02:51
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Rime posted:This is the argument leveraged against unions of all types for the past 50 years, but go ahead and keep imagining you're a special snowflake that will command a high price forever regardless of whether you have organized labor protection. That doesn't mean the argument are wrong in this instance. And yeah, if programmers are being paid worse than unionization might bring actual benefits. Typo fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 02:52
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They tend to be libertarians until something that affects them like raising the H1B cap comes up for discussion. All of a sudden the very vocal libertarian computer programmer or what have you will pull a 180º and demand that the government seal to borders because they took our jobs etc. I've also noticed the smuggest people tend to work in the least free markets. Financial services types can be FYGM but don't realize broker licensing is basically a guild arrangement in the US (can't walk off the street to test and earn a license; a firm has to sponsor your licensure). Same with medicine and their backdoor guild and the engineers/programmers/IT men somewhat high entry barriers in the field. Also anecdotally almost everyone I was friends with in college went the engineering route and they don't express extreme political opinions or any at all. Only a small amount of people tend to be loud assholes, and we tend to remember the egregious more than the entire herd of people who don't make a big fuss out of their political orientation.
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Jul 25, 2014 03:01
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Tab8715 posted:I should used a different such as prevent you didn't answer my question, "There are a lot of positions in XYZ industry that aren't either but what is your point?" quote:Increased but your typical STEM Major doesn't hold a candle to a company with billions. That's why there's a need for organized labor. What's exceptional benefits? 45k? 2 weeks PTO? 401k? New equipment? quote:This is ridiculous and a absurd hypothetical situation. quote:It's not only working weekends and what is "lower paid but still good" suppose to mean? quote:What's most cases? I just showed you a 160,000 employee company that threatens their H1-B Visa employees with unemployment if they don't work overtime. If they refuse, they lose their visa and go back to India. Peven Stan posted:Also anecdotally almost everyone I was friends with in college went the engineering route and they don't express extreme political opinions or any at all. Only a small amount of people tend to be loud assholes, and we tend to remember the egregious more than the entire herd of people who don't make a big fuss out of their political orientation. Typo fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 03:01
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Tab8715 posted:Too add upon this, yes there will undoubtedly be abuse but what would we rather prefer? If you are a developer with experience at this point you probably aren't gonna have a yacht but you make enough to buy your own boat on top of a large, comfortable suburban home or comfortable downtown apartment at least. But hey, do keep shouting generic left-wing slogans in your D&D hugbox. Typo fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 03:13
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Unions only help people who need help, because of their weakness. But I'm Neo; I don't need your loving help.
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Jul 25, 2014 03:42
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Cicero posted:Obviously there are some shops like this, but is there any evidence that programming is an unusually straining profession? Unusually straining compared to what? 60-hour weeks are certainly indicative of abuse. And paid pretty great compared to what? The existence of a shadowy business cartel secretly colluding to drive down wages tends suggest that while programmers tend to be paid decently, they're still underpaid compared to what they should be making under these market conditions. In both cases, they're not in a terrible situation but their situation is still worse than it would be if they were being treated fairly by their employers.
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Jul 25, 2014 03:58
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A major problem unionizing tech workers is that talent and skill vary vastly, but in not terribly easy to quantify ways. Knowing this, better workers don't have much reason to support unionization knowing it might pull top salaries down twards the mean. I don't think high salaries have much to do with it, although it helps. But uniformly high salary workers should still be able to unionize to their benefit. I think the bigger problem are the talent disparities which make a uniform pay structure difficult to implement, and makes unionization generally unattractive in this context. That, and everyone hates unions.
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Jul 25, 2014 03:58
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I can't tell if Typo is trolling deliberately, or just a living embodiment of the OP. Either way, these posts are an excellent showcase of what this thread is all about.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:01
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Thread title might've been more true for the generation of programmers and software developers that started working 1980's. Nowadays I think the Randian wingnuts just tend to be visible and audible above the mix this decade. The dot com crash probably took a loot of the stuffing out of that sort of thinking like the 08 crash did to LF libertarianism here.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:09
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Rime posted:I can't tell if Typo is trolling deliberately, or just a living embodiment of the OP. Either way, these posts are an excellent showcase of what this thread is all about. I actually don't like Ayn Rand at all and have fairly left-wing leanings, I acknowledge that my job is at the whim of market forces but currently, the winds are blowing my way. I don't have the expectation that this will last forever which is why I fully support a well funded social welfare net provided by the state. At the same time though, I simply don't believe that "unions!" are the solution to every single problem anymore than I believe the right's "entrepreneurship!" is the solution to everything. I simply don't see employees in every field, especially ones who are solidly upper middle class, as oppressed proletariat in need, or even want, organized labor especially in its 20th century format. To put it bluntly, Unions have adapted very poorly to changing technological conditions. There is also quite a bit of inherit contradiction (lol) in this thread where you guys are simultaneously portraying software developers as simultaneously Over-privileged/over-paid twats with the wrong political ideology and underpaid/oppressed workers who needs to be enlightened to the glory of organized labor. Main Paineframe posted:Unusually straining compared to what? 60-hour weeks are certainly indicative of abuse. And paid pretty great compared to what? The existence of a shadowy business cartel secretly colluding to drive down wages tends suggest that while programmers tend to be paid decently, they're still underpaid compared to what they should be making under these market conditions. In both cases, they're not in a terrible situation but their situation is still worse than it would be if they were being treated fairly by their employers.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:21
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Typo posted:When you are making $80-100k out of college working at one of those companies named you are really, really not gonna care all that much. I think you're partially right, but why then do unions exist in every professional sport? In the NBA, the minimum salary for someone with zero years of professional experience is over $470,000. Obviously, there is a lot of money to be made for the unions, the agents, and the players themselves. But why don't programmers care about fighting to increase their salaries by $20k, or $100k more? There's a lot more to it than just "the money's good, so why bother", as everyone has already pointed out.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:43
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Main Paineframe posted:Unusually straining compared to what? 60-hour weeks are certainly indicative of abuse. 60-hour weeks for programmers are likely less common than you think. There are companies that abuse their employees but developers in the US, almost unanimously, slavishly devote themselves to their work no more than 40 hours a week.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:49
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sim posted:I think you're partially right, but why then do unions exist in every professional sport? In the NBA, the minimum salary for someone with zero years of professional experience is over $470,000. Obviously, there is a lot of money to be made for the unions, the agents, and the players themselves. But why don't programmers care about fighting to increase their salaries by $20k, or $100k more? There's a lot more to it than just "the money's good, so why bother", as everyone has already pointed out. I think professional sports unions are a pretty good point to bring up and I need to think about your question for a bit.
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Jul 25, 2014 05:03
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Deus Rex posted:60-hour weeks for programmers are likely less common than you think. There are companies that abuse their employees but developers in the US, almost unanimously, slavishly devote themselves to their work no more than 40 hours a week. Yup, I have friends at Google and Microsoft that take pride in minimizing their work week e.g., "I've been getting away with 30 hours". If anything, developers (outside of games developers) probably get away with the most money relative to hours worked compared to other high paying professions like finance, law, and medicine.
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Jul 25, 2014 05:09
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Typo posted:I think professional sports unions are a pretty good point to bring up and I need to think about your question for a bit.
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Jul 25, 2014 05:12
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Those of you who started making 80-100k out of college, how much do you think your salary has increased annually since? Yeah i thought so.
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Jul 25, 2014 05:12
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