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Personally I think this thread is really good as advice for new writers but perhaps, for readability, a mod could delete all of the OP's posts and responses.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:40
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Personally I think this thread is really good as advice for new writers but perhaps, for readability, a mod could delete all of the OP's posts and responses. Nice dick move bro. I'll move the questions over to the general advice thread, although to be honest they usually waste my time with the no poo poo axiom "just write".
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Jul 24, 2014 00:46
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I find it hard to believe anyone on this site encouraged you to write more.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:52
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The general advice is "read more" not "just write", but I think you may not be very well-equipped for the former in any case.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:53
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Sithsaber posted:You skipped the majority of that post. I picked out the part of your post that I thought was pertinent to the thread. You are not doing any of the things that someone who wants to write "good" stories does though so..........  Like, if you respond to nothing else, please please please answer me this: Have you looked at critiques of other writers around here? Have you noticed how the way you post is much, much different from how anyone else posts? Do you see how maybe that could correlate with the poor response you're getting? Do you realize that most of the people posting here in this thread are doing so because of the same impulse that makes drivers slow down to look at gruesome car wrecks?
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Jul 24, 2014 00:57
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Well we encouraged him to write something new. But we meant in prose. Guess we should have clarified. I propose following Rhino's suggestion, renaming it and making this the new fiction advice thread so all the advice anyone could ever need will all be found on one page, tia
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Jul 24, 2014 00:57
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Sithsaber posted:
No. The worst possible thing you ,that is you personally, could do would be to study up on the monomyth or any other conceit/philosophy and try to shoehorn a story based around that. It's not a bad thing in general to be aware of but it leads quite a few people astray. The whole vomit a handful of themes onto a page routine results in a tvtropes style checklist, not a compelling narrative. Themes and ideas are useful but you apparently already have a lot of those and they aren't serving you well right now because your fundamentals are terrible. You should learn to make scrambled eggs before trying to master the souffle. You need to focus on your technical chops. Use a simple character arc for the next story you write. Create a character with an actual personality (not just a mouthpiece) and make them want something. Have this lead to a conflict, and eventually a resolution. After the resolution the character changes in some way and then the story is over. Very simple yet extremely effective, and any writer of moderate ability should be able to pull this off. No dream journal, no laundry list of ideas, just execute one simple character arc to the best of your abilities. Prove to yourself that you can do this. You'll learn a lot, I guarantee it. Scramble some loving eggs.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:02
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The Saddest Rhino posted:The general advice is "read more" not "just write", but I think you may not be very well-equipped for the former Sitting Here posted:I picked out the part of your post that I thought was pertinent to the thread. I get schaudenfreude(don't care how it's spelled) I'll take your advice and put the phone down to pick up children of the mind. (My last book was "my life in the Bush of ghosts" which was a high concept freeform novella that spit on writing conventions, so maybe I can blame that for forgetting how to use a colon) I want the loser rhino's credentials.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:02
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Sithsaber posted:I get schaudenfreude(don't care how it's spelled) I'll take your advice and put the phone down to pick up children of the mind. (My last book was "my life in the Bush of ghosts" which was a high concept freeform novella that spit on writing conventions, so maybe I can blame that for forgetting how to use a colon) Does it ever really worry you that you seem incapable of directly responding to questions? Are you bothered by the fact that you feel compelled to reference all the media you are consuming as if it's pertinent in some way to us critiquing your writing?
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Jul 24, 2014 01:06
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Sitting Here posted:Does it ever really worry you that you seem incapable of directly responding to questions? Are you bothered by the fact that you feel compelled to reference all the media you are consuming as if it's pertinent in some way to us critiquing your writing? No offense, but you're moving the goalposts. After I get this impulse out of my system I'll get up and read AS HAS BEEN RECOMMENDED. DONE
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Jul 24, 2014 01:10
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This is me critiquing a critique, which I know you're not supposed to do, but:Dr. Kloctopussy posted:The worst part about it was that this “event” was passive voice the longest loving dream within a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream within a …dream you’ll ever loving meet (I quoted the full clause for context.) No it isn't. Not every use of "to be" is the passive voice. Sometimes it's progressive, sometimes it's tensing. This is just past tense. (Sorry, this is one of my critique/editing pet peeves.) Edit: moving this to its own post. SneezeOfTheDecade fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 01:11
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Sithsaber posted:No offense, but you're moving the goalposts. After I get this impulse out of my system I'll get up and read AS HAS BEEN RECOMMENDED. DONE Lol you literally can't answer a direct question. You literally can't.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:11
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Sithsaber posted:I'll take your advice and put the phone down This is the smartest thing you've said all month. Yet you keep posting. Take a deep breath, try again, and don't pick it back up. I know it's hard to break an addiction, but you can do it! I believe in you!
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Jul 24, 2014 01:17
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Hey, is anybody else just dying at this? I'm not even sure why it tickles me so much, but I gotta know that I'm not alone here.Sithsaber posted:I occasionally have questions, but I never say, "you no talent by the book loser are beneath me". Sithsaber posted:I want the loser rhino's credentials. Sithsaber posted:That loser was referencing something I texted last month. TEXTED. The Nietzsche thing is pretty good, but that up there is gold. Also, if you want to know Rhino's 'credentials', why don't you read some of his stories? He's pretty good, maybe you'd learn something.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:17
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Sitting Here posted:Lol you literally can't answer a direct question. You literally can't. I"'ll end this thread by answering with yes for everything. My more in depth response associates the negativity we all are indulging in with schaudenfreude. (Don't care how it's spelled.) Now can you answer my question here or in the other thread? Ps. Do you guys really think I'm going to spend more money here after flames like this? I can't look it up because I won't buy access to the search feature. Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 01:19
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Sithsaber, I'm not a mod and I can't do a proper challenge, but I have a suggestion for you along those lines anyway: 1) Stop posting in this thread altogether. 2) Follow the Thunderdome thread. (I see your regdate is fairly recent. I don't mean to be patronizing here: do you know how to bookmark threads and use the control panel?) 3) Participate in the next six Thunderdome challenges. (Don't post those stories anywhere but Thunderdome.) 4) When you receive critique on your posts, say only this in response: "Thank you! I'll think on that." Don't say anything else, even if you believe the reader is in error. Just take the critique, consider it, and move on to the next story. Write, post, read, accept, iterate.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:22
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Sithsaber posted:I"'ll end this thread by answering with yes for everything. My more in depth response associates the negativity we all are indulging in with schaudenfreude. (Don't care how it's spelled.) Which question was that?
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Jul 24, 2014 01:24
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Many of his stories are in the Thunderdome archive. Same with most folks posting here. You said you read the Thunderdome OP, right? So you already know where the archive is and how to access it! Cool!
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Jul 24, 2014 01:25
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Sitting Here posted:Which question was that? It's the one he said was rhetorical.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:25
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Besesoth posted:Sithsaber, I'm not a mod and I can't do a proper challenge, but I have a suggestion for you along those lines anyway: Sorry, no. I'm taking a break from thunderdome while I read Orson Scott Card, the elements of style and while I return to working on "The Hindsight". Maybe I'll join up in a week or two.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:26
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Sithsaber posted:Ps. Do you guys really think I'm going to spend more money here after flames like this? I can't look it up because I won't buy access to the search feature. Thunderdome's second and third posts have very useful links to winning entries, and you can sort the thread by one user's posts by clicking the question mark at the bottom of a post box under their avatar. In answer to your actual question: I sure hope not.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:28
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Besesoth posted:This is me critiquing a critique, which I know you're not supposed to do, but: Oh whoops, you are right. I know not all uses of "to be" are passive voice, I swear.  I guess I needed a reminder. But still, it is usually a weak word choice. I think it definitely is in this sentence, especially since it is repeated twice.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:29
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Sithsaber posted:Sorry, no. I'm taking a break from thunderdome while I read Orson Scott Card, the elements of style and while I return to working on "The Hindsight". Why are you doing things that will literally make your writing worse? e: ^^ no worries! It is a generally solid critique, and it is generally better to rewrite the sentence (see what I did there  ). I just have a pet peeve. 
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Jul 24, 2014 01:30
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Besesoth posted:Why are you doing things that will literally make your writing worse? What's wrong with reading a primer and writing something? And are you poo poo talking Card because he's a bad person or are you being a writing elitist?
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Jul 24, 2014 01:33
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Sithsaber posted:I"'ll end this thread by answering with yes for everything. My more in depth response associates the negativity we all are indulging in with schaudenfreude. (Don't care how it's spelled.) Sitting Here posted:Which question was that? God Over Djinn posted:It's the one he said was rhetorical. ???? Sithsaber I want to help you please specify which question you would like an answer to
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Jul 24, 2014 01:38
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Sithsaber posted:What's wrong with reading a primer and writing something? And are you poo poo talking Card because he's a bad person or are you being a writing elitist? Are those the only two options you can think of? "Card is a bad writer with decent ideas" hasn't entered your mind? And "The Elements of Style" is a malevolent canon, based on the principle that English should be Latin with the serial numbers filed off. Since English isn't Latin, Strunk and White cause all sorts of problems. (You can tell because even Strunk and White themselves don't follow the advice in their book.) e: So that I'm not just coming down on you: read Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird to get better at writing. For the fiction you seem to like to write, read Harlan Ellison's I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream and H.P. Lovecraft's The Shadow Over Innsmouth. I've picked Ellison and Lovecraft specifically because like Card, they are terrible goddamn people, but unlike Card, they are extraordinary writers. SneezeOfTheDecade fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 01:38
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Besesoth posted:Are those the only two options you can think of? "Card is a bad writer with decent ideas" hasn't entered your mind? this relates to the question that was taken out of context: should I shun writers who intrigue me because of standards I don't understand, or should I do what most people do and ignore the lovely yet technically correct writings of people who made 30$ on a ebook? Please recommend a alternative to EoS. Edit: thanks for the recommendation, but don't proper writers nowadays say that Lovecraft spews out purple prose? Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 01:46
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Sithsaber posted:this relates to the question that was taken out of context: should I shun writers who intrigue me because of standards I don't understand, or should I do what most people do and ignore the lovely yet technically correct writings of people who made 30$ on a ebook? Lovecraft's writing is purple to a modern audience, yeah. But he does a phenomenal job of capturing the setting and characters he was writing about. For a modern update of it - I hesitate to nominate a comic book, but check out Mike Mignola's Hellboy series. "The Right Hand of Doom" and "Conqueror Worm" are good starting points. (If Mignola's written any prose fiction - I haven't checked in nearly a decade, I'm afraid - you can start there.) Going back to your first question: if Card's writing pushes your buttons, read it all you want. Just don't read it as an example of How To Write. Card - like I said - has excellent ideas (if you can find it, read the original "Ender's Game" short story; it is genuinely good), but poor execution at novel length. (If it helps at all, I feel the same way about some writers I adore - I will read anything Spider Robinson writes, but he really, really should be writing short stories instead of novels.)
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Jul 24, 2014 01:58
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Besesoth posted:Lovecraft's writing is purple to a modern audience, yeah. But he does a phenomenal job of capturing the setting and characters he was writing about. For a modern update of it - I hesitate to nominate a comic book, but check out Mike Mignola's Hellboy series. "The Right Hand of Doom" and "Conqueror Worm" are good starting points. (If Mignola's written any prose fiction - I haven't checked in nearly a decade, I'm afraid - you can start there.) Ps. To counteract the reportjunkies, I'll clarify and say that I love everything(from Abe Sapien to zombie Russian) in the Hellboy mythos. Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 02:04
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Yes, Lovecraft's prose is overwrought by modern standards. Luckily, that doesn't detract from his ability to actually tell a story! He can write characters that aren't two-dimensional, and his stories have actual plots with conflict and resolution. He loves eldritch horrors and he knows what details to omit to accentuate that horror and which details need to be included so that the reader has a loving clue what is going on. Read Lovecraft, but only if you can ignore the urge to rip off his style wholesale. Read him because he is telling the kind of stories you are trying to tell, but he actually pulls it off. Your prose (or your ability to open a thesaurus) means literally nothing if there isn't a story being told. Nobody is going to be impressed by flowery descriptions of nothing at all happening. As to being tired of hearing "just write": guess what dude, that's how you get better at writing. Write, and read twice as much as you write. Read authors in genres that you normally wouldn't. When you read, try to pick out the elements that make it a story. Look for characterization, conflict, stakes, and a resolution. What actions drive the plot forward? These are the things you need to internalize. Sitting around contemplating the monomyth and tweaking a few words of a broken story every once in a while is not going to improve your writing. You have to actually sit your rear end down in a chair and pump out some words. Everyone starts somewhere, and for most people that somewhere is "poo poo." The difference is that some people have the willpower and desire to keep trying until they get somewhere, and others give up when they don't receive instant gratification. The one thing no halfway decent author has ever done is sit around arguing with an entire forum of other writers that are telling them "hey, your story sucks." Get over it and write something new. I can't think of anyone in this forum that hasn't had a story or two get called out for being awful or bland or confusing, so stop feeling persecuted and try applying even a tiny bit of the advice that people are giving you. Edit: Also, stop trying to nitpick about what authors people are recommending. I can basically guarantee that reading almost anything published by an actual publishing house would improve your ability to write. Tom Clancy and Stephanie Meyer aren't ever going to win an award for their prose, but they can actually tell a story that people want to read. People will put up with some frankly wretched prose if the story is decent, but the reverse is not true. Learn how to tell a story, then learn how to sharpen your technique. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 02:14
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Sithsaber posted:You stupid bastard, you don't even know that I own a cursed forgery of Death riding an elephant. I'm pretty sure that some people here consider thebrushing over of Satan's death to be a example of too much tell. Excellent. I have a project for you, then (and it's tough, so I won't blame you or be mad if you say "uh, no"). Go through a single issue - 24 pages - of Hellboy and figure out why the dialogue boxes say what they do. (The silent issues are cheating - but examining them closely will also improve your writing!) Mike Mignola is a fairly parsimonious writer; every word is there for a reason. As a writer, you can figure out what that reason is. If you want a model for this, blogger Jess Nevins annotated Moore and O'Neill's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen as they were publishing it. Much of it is offline now (because Nevins published his annotations into a book), but the notes for the 1969 series are still available. (This is not to say that you should parrot Nevins's style, but that Nevins can offer a model for annotating a comic.) Also: what Grizzled Patriarch just said is all true. If you're not feeling your current project, write something else. Just get in the habit of getting words on the page. Establish the groove so that when you do feel your current project, the white page looks less like a brick wall and more like an invitation.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:25
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yes, Lovecraft's prose is overwrought by modern standards. Luckily, that doesn't detract from his ability to actually tell a story! He can write characters that aren't two-dimensional, and his stories have actual plots with conflict and resolution. He loves eldritch horrors and he knows what details to omit to accentuate that horror and which details need to be included so that the reader has a loving clue what is going on. But I'm sure that reading and writing can have more detailed addendums attached to them when I ask certain questions. Without listing poo poo and asking questions, I wouldn't have heard about the potential problems with Elements of Style. I'd step through a million pounds of hate and poo poo if there was something worthwhile on the other side. Ps. But aren't comics and graphic novels reliant on the visual medium? Words can be scarce when I don't always have to "show" with words. Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 02:29
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Sithsaber posted:But I'm sure that reading and writing can have more detailed addendums attached to them when I ask certain questions. Without listing poo poo and asking questions, I wouldn't have heard about the potential problems with Elements of Style. I'd step through a million pounds of hate and poo poo if there was something worthwhile on the other side. It's true! And it's not always easy to figure out which questions to ask. In Creative Convention, though, it's useful to make two assumptions: 1) The person making this post at the very least has a different perspective from the one I have, and that's useful; and 2) The person making this post wants me to be better at what I do. I know it's Something Awful and that's kind of what we're known for, but at least in this subforum, it's rare to find people crapping on you just to crap on you. (This is not an invitation to prove me wrong!) Regarding comics: yes, absolutely. But the words are also important, and it's useful to know how they're used and why they're there. If you like, you can do a second project (which should be easier than the first): take that issue of Hellboy and reverse-engineer a script for it, including not only the dialogue but directions for the artist. This is especially helpful in figuring out how to write action scenes.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:54
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Besesoth posted:It's true! And it's not always easy to figure out which questions to ask. In Creative Convention, though, it's useful to make two assumptions:
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Jul 24, 2014 03:20
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No sir, you do not get to close this thread after claiming to seek critique and advice. Let it flow.
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Jul 24, 2014 05:35
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As a rhino I would like some advice on the type of credentials I'm requested to volunteer.
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Jul 24, 2014 06:38
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The Saddest Rhino posted:As a rhino I would like some advice on the type of credentials I'm requested to volunteer. You seem sad, for a rhino.
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Jul 24, 2014 06:51
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I believe a Blingee.com picture of all the stories you've written should suffice.
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Jul 24, 2014 07:09
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SoundMonkey posted:You seem sad, for a rhino. Lo, Almudj, great Rainbow Serpent who lay beneath the earth, slept she and dreamt she of nothingness, for the skies were black and the seas were still, and the land was flat and bare and young. The animal tribes, which all lay in her belly, waiting to be born, slept as still as their great mother, and time passed. Much later came the day where her children, who were plenty and innocent, opened their eyes, and they feared, feared, feared for there was naught but a black void before them. Stirred they, stirred and gnashed and buckled and shrieked, and their rowdiness finally forced great Almudj to wake. Almudj, she who had lived all her life sleeping, the sensation was so new and so shocking she pushed up, up up up out of the ground. The world shook and screamed - the seas parted into rivers and lakes, the skies splintered with a million stars, and the land cracked into mountains and valleys. Almudj trashed out into this world, which we call the Dreamtime, and she cried out for her children. And her children, all of them ran and flew and slithered out of her belly, and soon they covered the world, and life came to the Dreamtime. Warramurrungundjui, creator of our tribes, emerged from the sea, and none could tell how she came to be or why she came to be. She gave birth to the first people, and she gifted them names, and meaning, to the Dreamtime. These people saw the animals, and they named their own Dreamtime after them. Thus there were tribes of Kangaroo Dreaming, and of Honey Ant Dreaming, and of Shark Dreaming, and of Rhino Dreaming. Time it was when Warramurrungundjui taught the people the languages of the world. They built a great fire in the middle of a dried lake, and the people danced and sang and feasted, celebrating the first words they would use on this momentous day. Warramurrungundjui presided, and listened to the eagerness of her young. The people of Rhino Dreaming came, dressed in the finest of leather and the sharpest of horns, and they sent their speaker, whom they deem most worthy, to her. "This thread is bad," said the speaker. "And it makes me sad." And none could tell if Warramurrungundjui was pleased. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 07:33
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I find it hilarious that everybody was like "whoa Muffin calm the gently caress down about RichardGamingo" and now everybody is mad at Sithsaber, because they're basically the same guy and they're infuriating for the exact same reasons. I've already said this, but it bears repeating again. Sithsaber is the most 18 year-old to ever been 18. He is so 18, he shits dorm-room Scarface posters. The way to fix his problems is not to engage with in, because he's still hopped up on a cloud of youthful "ALL THESE OLD PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET MY GENIUS"; the way to fix his problems is to ignore him and come back to him in 5-6 years when he's come the gently caress back down to earth. If he's a grown-rear end man well then, I have no solutions. He's probably beyond helping.
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Jul 24, 2014 09:57
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