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ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.

The Xmas special was my favorite. Possibly because it was the newest, and possibly because his Hammness is in it, but I also had to admire how well structured it was. In addition, I thought I had guessed the two "twists" in the third part - and for the record, I did - but I wasn't prepared for the "after twists" that were both perfectly set up and beautifully and effectively terrifying. Great stuff.

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Totally agreed that 202 and Xmas (as well as 102) are the best. When I heard Hamm was going to be in the Xmas special I was grinning from ear to ear. Perfect combo of writer and actor.

Sentinel Red
Nov 13, 2007
Style > Content.

Toxxupation posted:

also there's a christmas special that aired last year in december, it stars jon hamm from mad men and is Very Good

Man, the cookies are the vilest thing ever.

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007

Black Mirror is amazing stuff. Mostly.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Sentinel Red posted:

Man, the cookies are the vilest thing ever.

And yet also the key to immortality, survival beyond death and the preservation of all the wisdom of humanity if used in a not-evil way. They could be wonderful if we didn't just gently caress it up. And we totally would someday if anything remotely like it became possible.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 1, 2015

Republican Vampire
Jun 2, 2007

Charlie Brooker probably hasn't written for Who because he's apparently busy as heck.

Also, Toxx, have you seen Nathan Barley? It's kind of like if Black Mirror were a sitcom.

BSam
Nov 24, 2012

Republican Vampire posted:

Also, Toxx, have you seen Nathan Barley? It's kind of like if Black Mirror were a sitcom.

Occ. Watch Nathan Barley. loving Watch It.

Transmodiar
Jul 9, 2005

You're a terrible person, Mildred.

death .cab for qt posted:

Toxx, you should take a short break between S7 and S8 episodes of Doctor Who and do up reviews for the three Black Mirror episodes give the people of this thread a chance to catch up with his breakneck pace.

FTFY

Republican Vampire
Jun 2, 2007

BSam posted:

Occ. Watch Nathan Barley. loving Watch It.

Nathan Barley really works as a companion to Black Mirror because, despite the tonal differences, they're both near future stories with a similar enough sensibility that The Waldo Moment is just a reworked Nathan Barley script.

Post reasons to watch Nathan Barley ITT

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH

You fool, we're this close to having Occ reviews for brand new episodes.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

So Lego Dimensions announced two of its licenses

Scooby Doo

and

Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook
That it's actually a Love and Monsters set?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Toxxupation posted:

Lego Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

Yep, adult society is over. We had a good run though.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Toxxupation posted:

So Lego Dimensions announced two of its licenses

Scooby Doo

and

Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

We can finally live out our mystery busting fantasies where the Scooby Van becomes the TARDIS and the Doctor regenerates into Velma?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Burkion posted:

We can finally live out our mystery busting fantasies where the Scooby Van becomes the TARDIS and the Doctor regenerates into Velma?

This is the beginning of a bad slash fic.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH
The best part about Doctor Who Lego is integrates with all your other sets.

Doctor Who and castles? No problem. Doctor Who and spaceships? Of course. Doctor Who and the DC Universe? Works, the DCU just turns out to be an alien VR simulation at the end.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Jerusalem posted:

Yep, adult society is over. We had a good run though.

See you on the other side, everyone. I'll be the one drinking a juicebox and smiling while I alternate between the Doctor Who game and Splatoon.

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



I'll buy both a Lego Doctor Who game and a Lego Scooby Doo game. I would not buy the actual Legos. Those Lego video games are fun.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

egon_beeblebrox posted:

I'll buy both a Lego Doctor Who game and a Lego Scooby Doo game. I would not buy the actual Legos. Those Lego video games are fun.

They're collectathons, right? I am going to be bleary-eyed at work for awhile.

monster on a stick
Apr 29, 2013

Toxxupation posted:

So Lego Dimensions announced two of its licenses

Scooby Doo

and

Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

(Shaggy takes disguise of villain of the week)
Fred, Velma, etc.: "The Master!?!?"
The Master: "And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those drat kids and that mad man in a box!" :argh:

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

Toxxupation posted:

So Lego Dimensions announced two of its licenses

Scooby Doo

and

Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

I'll tell you what this means, Toxx. No size restrictions and screw the limit.

Blasmeister
Jan 15, 2012




2Time TRP Sack Race Champion

Toxxupation posted:

So Lego Dimensions announced two of its licenses

Scooby Doo

and

Doctor Who

you know what that means right everyone

Scooby Doo and the Wrestlemania Mystery has potential competition for best Scooby crossover property?

ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.

Jerusalem posted:

Yep, adult society is over. We had a good run though.

Ah, we hosed up things for everyone and we know it. Let the kids have it, they can't be any worse than us.

FreezingInferno
Jul 15, 2010

THERE.
WILL.
BE.
NO.
BATTLE.
HERE!

Blasmeister posted:

Scooby Doo and the Wrestlemania Mystery has potential competition for best Scooby crossover property?

I dunno. As much as I adore Doctor Who, this is going to be hard to beat.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

ashpanash posted:

Ah, we hosed up things for everyone and we know it. Let the kids have it, they can't be any worse than us.

They can take care of us while we play the Doctor Who Lego video game, pausing only for naptime, snacktime, and recess.

primaltrash
Feb 11, 2008

(Thought-ful Croak)
I just realized that Clutch wrote a song about Doctor Who.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TO4CEV8APU

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Doctor Who
"Cold War"
Series 7, Episode 9

What's so surprising, in retrospect, about Doctor Who is how perfectly the Cold War works as a general backdrop for Who and how infrequently the show has used it as a backdrop. World War II is often the go-to war of DW (having set at least three episodes in and around it that I can immediately think of, not to mention the fact that Daleks are literally Space Nazis), and from one perspective it's logical; Who is a very impressionistic show, and the nice thing about World War II is how immediately recognizable as a setting it is.

Armed conflict, especially armed conflict on a planet-spanning scale, is somewhat at odds with the generalized, "up with people" sort of atmosphere and tone that Doctor Who exposits, War is an ugly, nasty thing centered around the worst humanity has to offer. So when DW has to deal with war, especially wars that actually happened over stuff like The Time War, it usually goes to World War II. It makes sense, since WWII has so clearly painted and obvious "bad guys" and "good guys" in the Axis and Allies that it allows DW to present the conflict as justifiable, valid, and necessarily flat in the way DW, because of its ostensible aim as a children's show, by necessity has to be. There's no need for nuance or "both sides have a point" or "nobody involved in this is good" that such wars as the Korean/Vietnam/Iraq Wars or WWI demand of the storytellers; the Axis are the aggressors, and as an organized group are some of the most evil people in history. It might not be the most nuanced interpretation, but in broad strokes it's right, which is all that anyone really cares about when making Who.

All that being said, it's still a horrifying war - everything from Hiroshima and Nagasaki to Normandy to the bombing of London to the, well, loving Holocaust are just unimaginable, unthinkable atrocities. Doctor Who usually dodges this issue by making the stakes really small and personal, or having the setting itself being strictly background texture so it can easily avoid the sort of difficult, ugly realities of the war it's portraying. It makes sense but it also sort of undercuts the point of the thing; why set an episode in WWII if the grand total effect that narrative move has is in set design or costuming.

The Cold War, on the other hand, avoids all of the inherent issues other real-war set episodes of Who have. The Cold War doesn't have any significant armed conflict within it; it's called the war that was won "without firing a shot", which although not literally true speaks to the general sentiment and extremely low comparative body count of the decades-long skirmish.

Instead, The Cold War was characterized by ordinary, mundane people hammering out and forging tentative peace to avert major nuclear catastrophe. The Cold War is so interesting as a conflict because it's defined by not having it; it's a conflict where the stakes were unimaginably huge (nuclear annihilation) and crises were both common and often only narrowly averted, always via peaceful measures such as reconciliation and communication.

In other words, The Cold War is the perfect setting for a Doctor Who story. The setting of the Cold War allows for DW to have massive, world-ending stakes because that's what literally happened, without selling out those stakes because they were always resolved without issue in an at least relatively peaceful manner. They also were resolved in the exact sort of thematic tone that DW romanticizes - the idea that sitting down and communicating, truly understanding others is the fastest and most efficient way to conflict resolution.

The Cold War is proof positive of DW's optimistic worldview - it calcifies the argument that beauty and understanding can triumph over hatred and aggression. It's surprising that the show has taken this long to set an episode with it as a backdrop because of how effortlessly it slides into place within the existing dynamics of Who.

I think that's why I like "Cold War" as much as I do - it's an effortless episode of DW. It knows exactly what its tonal and thematic aims are and works to simply achieve those with the episode. Some may call such and episode boring or safe; personally, I can appreciate a well-crafted and coherent episode of television strictly on its own merits. It helps to that the episode's overall aim and message of being the triumph of civility in the face of utter oblivion specifically resonated with me.

It helps that "Cold War" immediately thrusts The Doctor and Clara right in the middle of the action, as they start the episode disembarking from the TARDIS onto a sinking sub commanded by Captain Zhukov (Liam Cunningham). This sort of high-stakes, high-tension series of near-misses and cramped, worried attitude persists throughout the duration of "Cold War", especially once the true antagonist of a recently defrosted Ice Warrior, Skaldak (voice of Nicholas Briggs), rears its head.

"Cold War" doesn't specifically have any real issues, but at the same time it's almost pleasantly unremarkable, to the point where one could be reasonably excused for forgetting that it existed or what, exactly, happened within it. But that doesn't make the episode bad- it's a fun, Gatiss-brand adventure that goes down pleasantly.

I enjoy Mark Gatiss' contributions to Who and nearly always do because there's a workhorse air of utter competence to his stories. People deride his episodes as "boring" when they're at worst "pleasant", and there usually seems to be a real lack of respect for how impressive it is to turn in an episode that is technically proficient. I can understand not specifically liking his output - if what you're going for is the highly conceptual (Moffat) or emotional (Davies) episodes I could see where Gatiss doesn't do anything for you - but this weird sort of disregard and sneering derision Gatiss' episodes get befuddles me, and speaks more to how easy people think it is to write television scripts.

Hating Gatiss is like hating vanilla flavored ice cream, ignoring the reason why that foods exists; it's an excellent base. The reason why one orders vanilla flavored ice cream is because, one, it's good by itself, but also because the person experiencing the flavor can add any number of toppings onto it - fudge, chopped nuts, bananas, whipped cream - and make an excellent dish. Vanilla is the base, the necessary foundation of a good sundae, and it's much the same with Gatiss' output - "Cold War" is a script that flows incredibly well from scene to scene and has some excellent dialog. The toppings, the hot fudge and chopped nuts and bananas of this analogy, lie in the perfomances.

Liam Cunningham is of course the standout of the lot - he brings a sort of quiet nobility to the role of Zhukov, although it's hard to figure out whether he played Davos before or after he was cast as Zhukov since he turns in a nearly identical performance to the one he has on Game of Thrones. It still works here, and Cunningham comes across as a dynamic and interesting character in his own right while still being able to land the gravitas necessary for the plot to function. Beyond that, however, Tobias Menzies turns in a really enjoyable performance as the utterly slimy, treasonous second in command Lieutenant Stepashin. The most props should be give to Nicholas Briggs' voice acting as Skaldak, since he's able to sell Skaldak's character as an empathetic, if not necessarily sympathetic, creature that's been separated from his family and race, lashing out in a combination of blind rage and grief. The entire climax hinges on Skaldak being reasonable and at least somewhat merciful, and Skaldak's change towards reasonability coming across as earned over an rear end-pull, and Briggs' VA goes a long way towards selling it.

Because, really, the strongest individual part of "Cold War" is how it's so strongly an allegory and directly symbolic of the actual Cold War itself. Sure, the episode uses a rampaging, murderous Martian that hunts people in an enclosed ship all Alien-style, but the real point of the episode is in its climax, where Skaldak is gradually convinced to not set the Earth onto a path towards nuclear annihilation. Skaldak's arc is conceived and executed very well - I especially enjoyed how it paralleled a real-world Cold War crisis in that everything was relatively peaceful before Skaldak was attacked, kicking off the plot's progression in the first place. I also enjoyed how negotiation was revealed to be a process - with the initial scene with Clara being sent in to try to convince Skaldak to calm down not working, but planting the seed for the climax's resonance all the same.

The climax is definitely the strongest part of "Cold War" and the section of the episode where its symbolism is most overt, what with Skaldak hovering his finger over the Big Red Button as The Doctor threatens to blow everyone up if Skaldak does so. It might be a bit obvious, but it works simply because the episode had put in the legwork beforehand to present all parties involved as legitimately aggrieved - Skaldak might be an rear end in a top hat but he has a reason for what he's doing, he's not a megalomaniacal supervillain. Everyone gets their moment in the spotlight during the climax, and the episode doesn't shy away from the stone-cold reality of the situation - Skaldak doesn't suddenly turn away from deciding to blow the Earth up because Clara points out a small act of mercy he made earlier within the episode, he merely hesitates long enough for his race to swoop in and save him. It's an episode that ultimately has the situation be resolved not from hokey sentimentalism or this big swooping "up with humanity" romanticism, but from a combination of pragmatism and basic human decency.

Some might call The Doctor's threats to kill everyone aboard the sub if Skaldak doesn't stop a bit against character, but to me it reinforces the thematic tone the episode is striving for - the Cold War stayed cold in large part because everyone with a modicum of sense realized that any act of overt aggression would inevitably be suicide, so The Doctor laying that threat out so plainly spoke the episode's aims most clearly. "Cold War" is an episode about the triumph of communication in the face of oblivion, but it's a hard won, hesitating peace that relied heavily on luck to work over this sort of fantasy-like, kumbaya "everyone sit in a circle and hash out their feelings" portrayal of conflict resolution. It's an ending that feels honest and realistic in how crises are resolved, and is the reason why this episode works at all.

Grade: A

Random Thoughts:
  • Clara: "Are we going to be okay?" The Doctor: "Oh yes." Clara: "Is that a lie?" The Doctor: "Possibly."
  • The Doctor: "Oh look you've got me telling you about them and I said there wasn't time!"
  • There's very little mention of Clara in this review, and for good reason - she's not very firmly established within the narrative outside of the climax. It seems that Gatiss' approach to The Clara Problem (ie, the inability to adequately characterize her) was to make her as generic as possible, so Clara comes off as kind of formless and rather similar to every other Companion that's walked aboard. Although it comes off a bit odd and safe, it was an overall good move for "Cold War" to make; the episode relies on Jenna Coleman's performance to make Clara interesting over having Clara be interestingly written and, guess what, Coleman totally loving kills it as per usual. Although it was a little odd for Clara to have the typical "new Companion" growing pains on her second adventure over her first, what with the whole "I'm speaking Russian?" scene.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

I think you've hit an interesting point that the Cold War works well for Doctor Who, and I would add speculative fiction in general. It's part of why Watchmen is so good - Superheroes and megalomaniacal villains seem less bizarre in a Cold War setting (and it stretches on for so long and spans so much of the world, that there are a lot of potential settings). World-ending stakes and villains who are hardliners with paranoia are staples for the show. It's also a good parallel for "the Silurian plot," i.e. that one in which aliens and humans are unable to trust each other and come to common ground, and each time it seems they are finally about to make some headway, somebody makes a foolish mistake and reignites the hostilities.

I don't know that I would describe Gattis's writing as vanilla ice cream. It's not really generic and it has a very specific feel. I think his writing works best when the humor lands or when he is just gushingly genuine. You're certainly right that the performances can help a great deal with the former.

And yeah, they still don't quite know what to do with Clara. It just keeps going, the "Who is Clara, besides a plot thing?" problem. Some of it may be the weird half-season stuff.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
I agree with pretty much all of this.

Also please never have the Ice Warriors leave their armor again, Who. The CGI just does not work.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Burkion posted:

I agree with pretty much all of this.

Also please never have the Ice Warriors leave their armor again, Who. The CGI just does not work.

I remember them mostly being pretty good about using lighting and angles to avoid seeing it except in really small amounts, but yes, let's try to avoid the bad CG monsters, especially when you're leaning on Alien for the suspense portions of the story.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
One – there is an classic episode of Doctor Who broadcast in 1983, Warriors of the Deep, that utilizes the Cold War as a backdrop, set in the mid-21st century. No nations are named (just “power blocs”), the Silurians are the bad guys, and let’s just say there are…reasons…fans don’t talk about this episode that much.

Two – You’ve summed up why I enjoy Gatiss’ work on Who. Not every episode needs to be “game changing” or “metaplot shifting.” Sometimes all you need is just a solidly produced, directed, and acted episode, and Gatiss is a great hand at delivering those. “gently caress it, I’m writing an episode of Doctor Who” seems to be his style, and “solved by basic human decency” is something we all should look for…

Three – No mention of David Warner at the Ultravox loving scientist? For shame!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

I mean, like half of Classic Who is basically about the Cold War, even if it's set on a distant space station. The entire Pertwee era, however you resolve the UNIT dating controversy, is like five years of the Doctor inserting himself into Cold War politics.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Bicyclops posted:

I mean, like half of Classic Who is basically about the Cold War, even if it's set on a distant space station. The entire Pertwee era, however you resolve the UNIT dating controversy, is like five years of the Doctor inserting himself into Cold War politics.

God I love the Third Doctor era.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Most of classic Who was made during the Cold War, wasn't it?

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Dabir posted:

Most of classic Who was made during the Cold War, wasn't it?

Yup, hence the sensibilities of the era making their way into the aliens, robots and medieval knights.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Cold War had the good sense to air during the first season of The Americans, so my 80's Cold War nostalgia was sky high. All it was missing was some rad wigs.

The thing about Clara that I dug in this episode was how totally over her head she was, and her recognition of that felt fresh after Amy's gumption and Rory's Roryness.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

Bicyclops posted:

I mean, like half of Classic Who is basically about the Cold War, even if it's set on a distant space station. The entire Pertwee era, however you resolve the UNIT dating controversy, is like five years of the Doctor inserting himself into Cold War politics.

This entire episode really feels like old Doctor Who to me. Especially when the doctor tries telling everyone to stop shooting each other and no one listens. It's just infuriating. Good stuff.

Fungah!
Apr 30, 2011

Dabir posted:

Most of classic Who was made during the Cold War, wasn't it?

whole thing, i think. went from 1963-1989

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The only issue I have with Gatiss' work on Who up to and including this story is that I know he's capable of so much more. Yes his work is solid, competent and often quite pleasant to experience, but I also know from League of Gentlemen that he can produce astoundingly high quality stories, a high watermark he hasn't come close to on any of the Who stories he's done up to this point. Maybe that's an unfair way to judge him, but then people had high standards for Gaiman's episode based on his past work, and he certainly produced the goods.

This episode itself is perfectly fine, but also quite forgettable, and that's a pity. I love the Ice Warriors returning to the show, was very pleased with how the design came across on screen, but like others I hope that they never choose to show one outside of its armor again.

Also they completely wasted David Warner :mad:

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idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!
The Cold War

HA HA COLD SEE BECAUSE ICE WARRIORS HA HA HA

A

Angela Christine
BSam
Colonel Cool
ewe2
Jsor
LabyaMynora
Lipset and Rock On
MikeJF
Ohtsam
Organza Quiz
Paul.Power
Sinestro
Stumiester
Well Manicured Man

B

adhuin
And More
BeefyTaco
Bicyclops
Capfalcon
cargohills
fatherboxx
jng2058
Mo0
onetruepurple
Random Stranger
Regy Rusty
Rochallor
Senerio
Xenoborg

C

Ali Aces
Attitude Indicator
Blasmeister
Dave Brookshaw
DoctorWhat
Gandalf21
Grouchio
Labratio

D

This space intentionally etc etc.

F

Who even would guess this?


Overall Average Guess: B. Pretty decent but not stellar episode, or so people think Toxx would believe.

Current rankings:

Labratio: 7
And More: 8
Paul.Power: 8
LabyaMynora: 9
Ohtsam: 9
Angela Christine: 10
ewe2: 10
Grouchio: 10
Well Manicured Man: 10
Ali Aces: 11
Bicyclops: 11
Capfalcon: 11
Colonel Cool: 11
DoctorWhat: 11
fatherboxx: 11
Jsor : 11
Mo0: 11
Senerio: 11
Xenoborg: 11
adhuin: 12
Dave Brookshaw: 12
MikeJF: 12
Rochallor: 12
Sinestro: 12
Stumiester: 12
Blasmeister: 13
jng2058: 13
Lipset and Rock On: 13
Organza Quiz: 13
Attitude Indicator: 14
BeefyTaco: 14
BSam: 14
onetruepurple: 15
Gandalf21: 16
Random Stranger: 17
cargohills: 18
Regy Rusty: 18

Labratio takes a serious hit this time with a two-point misstep, but manages to hang on to the lead. It's a tough five-way race at the moment with just a handful of points separating the top tier, and another bunch waiting just below that in case of a big blunder. With seven episodes left in this season, we've still got plenty of room left for things to shake up!

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