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mind the walrus posted:The Doctor's Daughter played The Doctor's Daughter in an episode called "The Doctor's Daughter" wherein she married the Doctor in The Doctor's Daughter making the daughter of the Doctor married to the same Doctor who met the Doctor who had the Doctor's Daughter. Doctor who?
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Oct 25, 2014 03:26
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mind the walrus posted:gently caress That's generally how you get daughters, yes.
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Oct 25, 2014 03:26
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mind the walrus posted:The Doctor's Daughter played The Doctor's Daughter in an episode called "The Doctor's Daughter" wherein she married the Doctor in The Doctor's Daughter making the daughter of the Doctor married to the same Doctor who met the Doctor who had the Doctor's Daughter. Quick oxx change your name to "the doctor" I have an idea
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Oct 25, 2014 03:31
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Time for more silly background details. The title of this episode had quite few fans in a tizzy. The very first traveling companion of the Doctor way back in 1963 was his granddaughter, but we never knew anything else about his family. Decades later this led to some very unfortunate things being written, but since most people prefer to pretend that those things never existed the question the Doctor's family was one of those long standing mysteries of the show. So when the episode is called "The Doctor's Daughter"
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Oct 25, 2014 03:33
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One Swell Foop posted:You left out the last part, where the happily married couple had a daughter. The Doctor's Daughter had the Doctor's daughter ?
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Oct 25, 2014 03:36
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Random Stranger posted:Time for more silly background details. The title of this episode had quite few fans in a tizzy. The very first traveling companion of the Doctor way back in 1963 was his granddaughter, but we never knew anything else about his family. Decades later this led to some very unfortunate things being written, but since most people prefer to pretend that those things never existed the question the Doctor's family was one of those long standing mysteries of the show. So when the episode is called "The Doctor's Daughter" To be fair though the show hasn't exactly denied that the Doctor was once a father and grandfather. Since she was the very first Companion and the show made no bones about calling her the Doctor's granddaughter there really is no way around that.
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Oct 25, 2014 03:38
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Random Stranger posted:Time for more silly background details. The title of this episode had quite few fans in a tizzy. The very first traveling companion of the Doctor way back in 1963 was his granddaughter, but we never knew anything else about his family. Decades later this led to some very unfortunate things being written, but since most people prefer to pretend that those things never existed the question the Doctor's family was one of those long standing mysteries of the show. So when the episode is called "The Doctor's Daughter" That's amazing. I didn't learn about the whole granddaughter thing until after watching through the new series so that potential for confusion never occurred to me. Now I'm kinda curious about these "unfortunate things"...
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Oct 25, 2014 03:48
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say it involves Looms and the very weird-yet-persistent notion among a subset of fans that the Doctor is some kind-of asexual autistic creature simply because he doesn't bang humans 875 years+ his junior.
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Oct 25, 2014 03:50
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Regy Rusty posted:That's amazing. I didn't learn about the whole granddaughter thing until after watching through the new series so that potential for confusion never occurred to me. NO
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Oct 25, 2014 03:51
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I agree with this negative.
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Oct 25, 2014 03:53
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mind the walrus posted:I'm going to go out on a limb and say it involves Looms and the very weird-yet-persistent notion among a subset of fans that the Doctor is some kind-of asexual autistic creature simply because he doesn't bang humans 875 years+ his junior. As a man who occasionally dresses up as David Tennant's doctor for local cons, I have to confirm: your typical doctor who fan is literally autistic. No idea of how long a conversation should appropriately go on before "okay, everyone wants to go now." Also it's not cool to refer to my girlfriend in her homemade tardis dress as "sexy" because you're dressed as one of the doctors, bro. We literally own couples doctor who costumes and are the least autistic people in the room I can't.
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Oct 25, 2014 04:01
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Doctor Who "The Doctor's Daughter" Series 4, Episode 6 I don't often get steamed about the pseudoscience in Doctor Who; given how patently ridiculous the show's very premise happens to be (wooden time machine), poring over the minutiae of its various technobabble plot devices is a pastime best left to my adversaries, the Nerds, or to be more honest, the Different Nerds. But on top of its myriad other issues, many of which Occ has covered, "The Doctor's Daughter" relies on a twist whose explanation is so shaky that even I've got to hit Pause and mentally jot up all the varieties of bullshit I just smelled. It plants its flag on a house of sand. So, here's the twist's premise - the planet on which Doctor and co. crash this time was the subject of a terraforming experiment between humans and a species of rubber-headed fish-men who only speak Bubble. The planet's underground consisted of an empty complex of tunnels with sufficient nutrition and protection from the elements, as well as a series of single-parenting replicators, basically cloning with an upgrade, to populate the new world. In one part of this complex was a big glass ball full of Nature Gas that I guess needed time to age or something before it could be popped open and fully terraform the surface. Before this ball could be vigorously rubbed and release itself into the shafts overhead, the humans and aliens fell out and divided into factions, using the replicators as soldier-generation machines in an attempt to kill off the other side and assume control of the planet for themselves. At the time of the Doctor's arrival, the war has been going on for a week, with approximately five thousand "generations" of clones having already been created (Jenny is said to be the five thousandth). The replicators imbue a warped version of the conflict into the each generation's mind in addition to basic military tactics, ensuring their progenitors would have an endless supply of soldiers who would throw themselves at the enemy again and again until one of them gave in. A neat little premise, all told, nicely summarizing the distortion of history and self-serving existence of warfare beneath the pseudo-science. But there's one ickle detail that nags at me. See, let's assume, at absolute minimum, that one soldier qualifies as a generation. That would mean approximately ten thousand soldiers for both sides battling in a series of cramped steel corridors, with most of them dying within one week's time. So. Where are the bodies? The bodies, where are they? Bodies, wherefore art thou? Where are the loving bodies? There's no automated casualty-disposal that we know of, the combat zones are horribly cramped, the humans and Hath must have been dying in droves for the conflict to still be even. There should be more corpses in that facility than a clown's backyard, and we don't see hide or hair of one! The entire premise collapsed for me in light of that detail; Doctor Who usually tries to distance itself from actual warfare, making the combat bloodless and/or keeping the nastiest moments of a conflict at a safe distance, but this episode boxes itself in with the war and then tries to just sprinkle it with some loving pixie dust and make it disappear. That's just the most egregious fault in my eyes, but God knows that "The Doctor's Daughter" has plenty to go around. Martha is horribly mishandled, once again and hopefully for the last time; she contributes nothing of value to the plot and leaves the way she came after trying and failing to emote as a single Hath. The Hath are terribly designed, just dudes with an unconvincing rubber mask on, and it's lazy as hell on the writers' part to make them incomprehensible to us - their bubble-speak is a transparent attempt to further Other them to the audience, but it goes against one of the most rock-solid tenets of Who's writing (all aliens speak English cuz of TARDIS-magic), the fact that Martha can still understand them doubly undermines the premise, and their bubbling really got on my tits after a while. The entire episode is one elongated shooting sequence, and gunplay is what Who does worst. And then there's the Doctor himself. I've said before that I have always preferred it when the Doctor's portrayed as a slightly desperate do-gooder with serious issues than as a saintly paragon, and his sanctimony in this episode is downright suffocating. It's only halfways tolerable in the beginning because the Sontaran two-parter put his anti-soldier boner front and center, but even when Jenny stomps him down time and again he just keeps going with the limp pacifism talk until she gives in, if only to shut him up. And then there's the "man who never would" scene, which has been long-maligned and rightly so; when that rolled around I quipped at Occ, "I NEVER WOULD...EXCEPT FOR ALL THOSE TIMES I TOTALLY DID." Ten is so deep in blood that his magnificent coif barely breaks the surface, so for him to hold himself up as some nonviolent role-model to a whole civilization is cheap, lazy, and devalues the unsettling and honestly pretty nuanced (for a show that is for children) moments in "The Christmas Invasion" and "The Family of Blood." And yeah, as Occ pointed out, Ten was kind of remiss to not just sort of kind of mention the regeneration thing to Jenny as she was bleeding out. Maybe regeneration is like wiggling your ears or something! You don't know you can do it 'til you try. As always, Donna Noble is our saving grace and guiding light, verbally dope-slapping the Doctor every time he goes off on one of his righteous little tears and piecing together the evidence needed to bring the deeply stupid twist to light (seriously, can you imaging Rose pulling that poo poo? "Cor blimey, some numbers! If I squint real 'ard and punch meself in the head a few times they might look like the Doctor wrote I LOVE U ROSE"). Even the way she beats the "daughter" drum so hard makes a depressing kind of sense if you connect a few dots; it's not hard to believe that Donna's intent on seeing the Doctor treat Jenny properly after suffering through her own mother's emotional abuse. It's a downer of an implication and almost definitely not intentional, but given what a transparent poo poo Sylvia has been to Donna through the whole of her tenure, the possibility looms large. So Jenny blasts off to space, never to be seen again, and then her actress marries Tennant in what would probably make the most saccharine behind-the-scenes biopic of the decade. I'm left wondering how the humans and Hath will coexist without mashing the gently caress YOU button on the replicators again, and what it's going to smell like when the corpses eventually start to moulder in those corridors. Oh well, no great loss. Martha's free of this episode and so are we. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 04:08
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I think I would like to mention that the Doctor was RAPED into producing an adult daughter this episode. Hand forced into machine against his will *poof adult child* and everything. Let that sink in.
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Oct 25, 2014 05:26
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I'm not sure if I agree with that interpretation of the ending. It certainly looks like The Doctor wants to shoot Cobb, but he decides that in this case setting a good example is more important than his personal revenge. And I guess it could be partly due to Donna's good influence.
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Oct 25, 2014 06:34
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What about Donna Status? OH GOD WHAT DID THIS EPISODE DO TO THE DONNA STATUS
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Oct 25, 2014 07:53
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The Doctors Daughter Welcome back, guesstimation fans, to see how bad people are at reading Toxx.The answer, still, is pretty bad. A idonotlikepeas Xenoborg M_Gargantua Weird Sandwich B Soothing Vapors Senerio Fucknag Regy Rusty Go RV! NeuroticLich C BSam adhuin Random Stranger Zaggitz Evil Sagan legoman727 One Swell Foop thexerox123 Overmayor Sighence D jng2058 Jsor FreezingInferno Andwhatiseeisme Rarity Adder Moray F Ohtsam Congrats to Ohtsam for being the only person to get this one right, a knowledge thats put him into joint first Adder Moray 5 Adhuin 5 jng2058 5 ohtsam 5 Andwhatiseeisme 6 FreezingInferno 6 Rarity 6 Zaggitz 6 BSam 7 Evil Sagan 7 Go RV 7 Jsor 7 Random Stranger 7 Soothing Vapors 7 thexerox123 7 Fucknag 8 Legoman727 8 one Swell Foop 8 overmayor 8 Senerio 8 M_Gargantua 9 Regy Rusty 9 Sighence 9 Xenoborg 10 idonotlikepeas 11 NeuroticLich 11 Weird Sandwich 11
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Oct 25, 2014 11:19
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Smello posted:It apparently only takes Martha a couple hours to understand and be able to fully communicate with the Hath's gurgles? Tardis translation can't explain it, she certainly couldn't understand them at first. Originally the Hath had a translator and it spoke English. They then realised that all the lines the Hath had were all really really really poo poo and unnecessary, so instead there's the implication that the Hath are telepathic. One Swell Foop posted:As an ex-pat, it's one of those phrases that you grow up with in the UK and as you say it, it's hard to attach negative connotations; it's the name of a kid's game just like the 'British' in the game British Bulldogs. It's all Greek to me
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Oct 25, 2014 11:28
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Oxxidation posted:Where are the bodies? The Deep Space Nine episode "Battle Lines" (guest starring long-haired Jonathan Banks  ) did the concept way better by putting the resurrection mechanism in the premise instead of the clone factory.
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Oct 25, 2014 11:29
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Oxxidation posted:Where are the bodies? Fed into the clonobox, don't get hot alien clones out of the aether mate. Or they eat them, obviously! [edit] I was trying to think of which episode came after this one. I could remember the end of the series and the start of the series, but not the one after this in the middle. After writing this post I thought to myself, "Man, I hated the Doctor's Daughter much more than everyone else at the time" and then the name of the next episode sprang into my head. Enjoy yourselves.
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Oct 25, 2014 11:50
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm not sure if I agree with that interpretation of the ending. It certainly looks like The Doctor wants to shoot Cobb, but he decides that in this case setting a good example is more important than his personal revenge. And I guess it could be partly due to Donna's good influence. It's definitely the "MANWHONEVERWOULD" part that seals why it's lovely. Now maybe the Doctor is in fact just playing up that angle to set a good example but it really doesn't come across that way.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:10
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mind the walrus posted:It's definitely the "MANWHONEVERWOULD" part that seals why it's lovely. Now maybe the Doctor is in fact just playing up that angle to set a good example but it really doesn't come across that way. It comes across as quite calculated to me as well, perhaps because I just never bought into the concept of there being any connection between the Doctor and Jenny. I read the scene as him storming over there never intending for a moment to fire the gun, but making a big act out of pretending to be so incensed he was going to do so but then stopping himself to prove to the soldiers it didn't have to be that way. Obviously the intent was supposed to be that the Doctor was so wracked with guilt and sorrow over the death of this character he met 2-3 hours ago that he was ready to grab a gun and shoot a dude in the head over it, only to force himself to control his emotions. But I just couldn't buy into that, and as a result it makes the Doctor seem quite cold, like he thought,"Ahhh, here's my chance to prove a point!"
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Oct 25, 2014 12:19
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The weird thing is, The Doctor is the kind of person who'd get worked into a tizzy because of the senseless death of someone he met five minutes ago. It just didn't really work here.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:21
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Jerusalem posted:It comes across as quite calculated to me as well, perhaps because I just never bought into the concept of there being any connection between the Doctor and Jenny. I read the scene as him storming over there never intending for a moment to fire the gun, but making a big act out of pretending to be so incensed he was going to do so but then stopping himself to prove to the soldiers it didn't have to be that way. And again, he does it by making a statement that is one or both of two things: 1. Really calculating to try and prove a point to the humans and Hath. 2. Immensely hypocritical of the Doctor given all we know about him. Hell even just given all we know about Ten, let alone all the poo poo the pre-2005 Doctors pulled.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:35
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Jsor posted:The weird thing is, The Doctor is the kind of person who'd get worked into a tizzy because of the senseless death of someone he met five minutes ago. It just didn't really work here. Getting angry (perhaps even unreasonably so) I can definitely see, but not so incensed that he grabs a gun and walks up and puts it to a guy's head like he's going to blow his brains out. The episode just wanted there to be a deeper connection between the Doctor and Jenny there, and while it might have worked for some it just left me cold. Without the depth or strength of that connection, the whole episode just falls apart and all the many, many flaws become all the more apparent. As for why Martha is there at all, I really do wonder if there was a concern somewhere that Catherine Tate wasn't going to work as a fulltime companion and so they hedged their bets by making sure Freema was there for 3 of the episodes of the first half of the season.... then did just what they did in season 3 and failed to actually give her anything to actually do as a character.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:46
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The stupidest moment of the episode for me (well ok, after the two really dumb and poorly thought out heroic sacrifices) was the part where The Doctor just randomly decrypts the map. He knows how militarized the human faction is, what does he expect them to do with the information?mind the walrus posted:It's definitely the "MANWHONEVERWOULD" part that seals why it's lovely. Now maybe the Doctor is in fact just playing up that angle to set a good example but it really doesn't come across that way.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:49
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Really surprised I'm the only one that guessed an F for that.
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Oct 25, 2014 16:34
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I liked the episode. It was stupid but so is every episode.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:02
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Ohtsam posted:Really surprised I'm the only one that guessed an F for that. I know the episode sucked, I know I didn't much like it, but I also knew there were a chance that Occ would find something redeeming in the episode that would keep it above the ones he hates, so I hedged my bets with a D. I apparently forgot that no, if he really hates some part of the episode the whole episode gets F'd up. Which means that I need to treasure being tied for first, methinks, because that poo poo probably ain't gonna last.... 
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Oct 25, 2014 17:41
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Toxxupation posted:There's even a level of internal hypocrisy to his actions- he abhors violence, but as Jenny notes, the Sonic Screwdriver is basically a super-gun with a more family-friendly name. And as we've seen before, his insistence on pacifism and absolute rejection of taking other lives, not to mention genocide, is wildly, wildly dishonest bordering on outright disingenuous. He's just as big of a monster as the people he's smugly patronizing to. The claim of complete rejection of violence thing was always a new series thing. You could probably write it as Nine's guilt over the whole Time War thing, but it always rang a little goofy to me when Ten was doing it. I don't think we've linked you to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74
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Oct 25, 2014 20:08
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For me the worst part of this episode is the death of the random Hath. He walks one foot into a mudpit and then can't be arsed to come back even though the mud hasn't even reached his waist. So pathetic. I've never seen the next episode and just pulled a guess from out my rear end 
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Oct 25, 2014 20:55
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Pretty sure my guess on the next one is going to land me in solo last place.
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Oct 25, 2014 21:00
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Rarity posted:For me the worst part of this episode is the death of the random Hath. He walks one foot into a mudpit and then can't be arsed to come back even though the mud hasn't even reached his waist. So pathetic. Here's a Fun Science Fact to save you folks some nightmares - most quicksand does not actually work this way. The unusual properties of the substance will mean that you'll submerge to a certain depth, but at that point, well before you're over your head, there's enough surface tension so that you have to actually struggle to sink any deeper. Of course, by that same point it'll take an amount of kinetic force equivalent to pushing a Volvo to get you back out again, but that's a whole separate problem.
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Oct 25, 2014 21:03
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Rarity posted:For me the worst part of this episode is the death of the random Hath. He walks one foot into a mudpit and then can't be arsed to come back even though the mud hasn't even reached his waist. So pathetic. ARTAX NO!
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Oct 25, 2014 21:51
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BSam posted:ARTAX NO! ...god....goddammit.... no.... 
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Oct 25, 2014 21:53
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the MWNW is the ideal that 10 aspires to (we get a lot of pretty pacifist ideas coming off him), and he mentions it out loud partly to try and prove to himself that he can live up to it. It is kindof hypocritical, but it's a hypocrisy that the show has been continuously exploring. Again, maybe so but that doesn't mean the moment is done well. It comes across as a naked attempt to patronize to others, and here's the important bit-- Martha and Donna (especially Donna given what she's seen firsthand in "The Runaway Bride" and her status as the Companion who doesn't tolerate the Doctor's usual bullshit) don't bother to call him out on making such a massively hypocritical statement in public, not even in private as an aside. The Doctor's hypocrisy is a theme Ten's tenure has been loosely exploring but it always falls awkwardly between subtext and text, and part of that is the bungling of climactic moments like THEMANWHONEVERWOULD.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:39
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Yeah, throughout his run there would frequently be bits that made me go,"Oh! So this explains why he did the other things in those other episodes, it was all building to THIS point!" ....and then that potential development would get tossed aside and he'd go back to his wildly contradictory stances. I was never entirely sure if I was reading too much into it or if RTD was setting things up and then getting cold feet and pulling out at the last minute. A good example is that he removed the line he'd intended in season 3 where the Master taunts the Doctor for making this all possible by destroying Harriet Jones' career. RTD felt that was too cruel, but that would have been a perfect line for the Master, and would have also given the Doctor the pretty necessary gutpunch he needed by pointing out how his own claims to moral authority had potentially disastrous consequences.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:49
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I would rather save the Ten arc talk until after his run is done. But I agree with Jerusalem that certain aspects of his story seem to lack follow-through.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:00
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I did not know about that Harriet Jones line. That really should have been kept in. RTD could be so weirdly inconsistent.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:00
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One thing that always frustrated me about the RTD/Tennant years was how they had a perfectly good, functional character arc they could have done with the Doctor, and they kept skirting around it, only rarely hitting on it. Because the Doctor as played by Tennant and written by RTD was always a massive hypocrite with a god complex. They should've realized it more and leaned into it, utilized his perpetual hubris as a plot point. And to be fair, occasionally they did, but more often they let him off the hook. I guess why people really like Donna is that, unlike Rose and Martha, she doesn't put up with his bullshit. But they still didn't utilize Donna's ability to undercut the Doctor's self-satisfaction as much as they ought to have. For whatever faults Moffat's had, he hasn't let the Doctor off the hook for his worst aspects.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:08
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Spatula City I actually agree with you for the most part but that is way too much information for where this thread is currently. We still have like a season and a half of Ten left to go.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:18
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