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One of the best bits of the often far-too bombastic early season music. Lovely and atmospheric, especially towards the start. Reminds me of Braid's soundtrack, kinda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMwomsJ9MR0
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Aug 31, 2014 06:29
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(Note these spoilers are for a comic book, and not a future episode.) I've been reading this thread all evening. While I understand that OP has no interest in other Who media (understandable, as I don't care for it either), it should at least be noted that a comic book last year gave some closure to "Ethernet Head" guy from Eccleston's run. He's become a villain haunting the Doctor in all his incarnations, angry that his mother died and his life ruined by the Doctor's ditching him. Of course, he gets his time travel power from a greater evil; and eventually sacrifices himself to save The Doctor, who notes upon burying him that he was a good companion after all. At least the Doctor sort of owned up to being a dick there, eventually.
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Aug 31, 2014 10:27
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I listened to two Big Finish audios at work yesterday and even I can't understand why people keep bringing up non-TV stories.
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Aug 31, 2014 12:37
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Rochallor posted:I listened to two Big Finish audios at work yesterday and even I can't understand why people keep bringing up non-TV stories. Which ones? It's kind of important in the same way that if you're only exposure to regular Doctor Who was Love and Monsters and the Twin Dilemma
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Aug 31, 2014 14:33
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Burkion posted:Which ones? It's kind of important in the same way that if you're only exposure to regular Doctor Who was Love and Monsters and the Twin Dilemma I hope the answer is Minuet in Hell and Nekromanteia.
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Aug 31, 2014 14:44
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thexerox123 posted:I hope the answer is Minuet in Hell and Nekromanteia. Unfortunately no, they were Legend of the Cybermen and Peri and the Piscon Paradox. I have some thoughts about them but I think they'd belong more in the other thread in a couple days.
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Aug 31, 2014 16:38
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Toxxupation posted:The episode opens with The Doctor and Rose landing on a space station perched on top of a planetoid that is somehow capable of orbiting a black hole without being sucked in. Now, clearly, as The Doctor notes, such an event should be literally impossible; thus the need for the space station, which is conducting a drilling expedition to the core of the planet to figure out what, exactly, is causing this anomaly.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:11
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I have no idea why but this thread makes me want to get back into Doctor Who.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:14
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Minor point of science that I didn't notice until VagueRant quoted this:quote:The episode opens with The Doctor and Rose landing on a space station perched on top of a planetoid that is somehow capable of orbiting a black hole without being sucked in. Now, clearly, as The Doctor notes, such an event should be literally impossible This isn't even slightly impossible. We're orbiting a black hole RIGHT NOW! Orbiting things are being sucked in, they're just going so fast that they miss.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:50
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Minor point of science that I didn't notice until VagueRant quoted this: Just adding to this: From an interview with Dr. Jerry Fishman: quote:Akarsh_Valsan: Can black holes really suck things up?
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Aug 31, 2014 22:00
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MrL_JaKiri posted:This isn't even slightly impossible. We're orbiting a black hole RIGHT NOW! Orbiting things are being sucked in, they're just going so fast that they miss. While true, there is a limit to how closely a planet can orbit something. (not that that plot point didn't irritate me when this aired)
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Aug 31, 2014 22:19
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If you want to get nitpicky on the science: A star system falling into the black hole, an event that would take millions of years, happened in a matter of hours. Therefore they are experiencing very powerful time dilation. For a billion fold time dilation they must be very nearly at the event horizon. This is far closer than closest stable orbit for a free falling object, which is 150% the radius of the event horizon. edit: To the above, the being torn apart by tidal forces doesn't apply in this case since the Roche limit of super massive black hole is inside the event horizon.
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Aug 31, 2014 22:30
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Maybe they're orbiting within the accretion disc. That'd cause problems with friction if nothing else.
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Sep 1, 2014 01:02
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I started reading the last man standing threads based on this one. I think the primary difference, that's been interesting to read, is that both shows have such diametrically opposed ideologies. Both tend to deal in caricatures, and both can lack subtlety (frequently). But it's neat how you have this show, a dedication to an ultimately affirmative ideal of romanticized human intellectual potential triumphing over the equally human tendency to aggression. And, yeah, that romanticism is frequently dumb and bonkers in execution. But then you have Last Man Standing, a show equally dedicated to its ideological premise that is essentially the opposite, a lazily cynical outlook that just takes other dumb, bonkers ideas for granted, and this show (that is, doctor who) has been, frankly, much better received by occupation. I don't think either show is any less sincere, and the lows of Who are just so loving low, but the dedication to something that is not, at its core, deeply, unbelievably warped just carries the show through so much more
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Sep 1, 2014 02:28
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Doctor Who "The Satan Pit" Series 2, Episode 9 Doctor Who is, fundamentally, a show about the triumph of the human spirit; a positive show that is meant to illustrate the greatness of humanity and what it has to offer. Which is why, for a show with that operating credo, it's all the more interesting that the titular Doctor isn't a human; he constantly marvels and becomes engrossed in even the smallest minutae of a random person's life; he practically pulls cartwheels when a character does something he approves of; and even when he's upset with humanity, when it's betrayed him or let him down, there's a sense that he dissaproves with a wry smile and a shake of his head. The Doctor loves humans, can't get enough of them, and even when he's mad he still revels in their mistakes the same way an upset parent would criticize a wayward child. It's a weird show, Doctor Who. So very optimistic, at its very core; usually I don't go for that sort of thing because I really hate heavy-handed morality. I find, generally speaking, that there are no easy answers to life, that there is no black and white, and that media that proclaims a reductionary, "easy" sort of truth to be the most dangerous, disingenuous, and harmful message to spread. But yeah, I like this show (well, when it's not absolutely terrible). I guess I should be more accurate: I like this show's message. It doesn't come across as smug, easy moralizing trying to spread an insipid, reductionary message, it comes across as more hopeful and hope-filled instead. It's with all that said that I really, really enjoyed the final act of this two-parter, "The Satan Pit". Generally speaking, Who two-parters follow a specific formula: the first part is all of the exposition with clear stalling into a cliffhanger, and the second part is all the resolution and explanation, interspersed with action sequences. In contrast, the "Impossible Planet/Satan Pit" two-parter has deviated from that specific blueprint at every opportunity; the first half was a mostly tonal piece with a lot of fun scenes and lines, and this second half was, on the whole, a fairly understated, rather introspective hour of television. And I really, really enjoyed it. The cliffhanger is addressed decently, for once- instead of being immediately undone within the first ten seconds of "Satan Pit", the remaining crew members (plus Rose) are able to scramble away, but it's clearly a temporary solution to a permanent problem, and the episode arc for the crew mostly consists of their desperate escape from the encroaching, mind-controlled Ood. This arc as a whole isn't exactly the star of the episode, but it's still quite good; mostly due to the fact that, again, it commits entirely to its "ripping off of sci-fi horror flicks" conceit and is able to keep an adequate tone for an unstoppable, malevolent antagonist that is so numerous they it could more accurately be described as a force. The real gold in this episode centers on The Doctor and his little plot, as he and Ida are marooned in the core, so The Doctor quickly decides to venture into the pit (as they're about to die from oxygen loss anyways). It's a strange choice, since the scenes of The Doctor slowly descending into the inky blackness of the pit as he discusses such heavy topics as religion with Ida through their intercom, but it works; as the episode cuts away from Rose et al's desperate fight for survival, it..fits to have The Doctor lowering himself into the infinite chasm, talking about the metaphysical in a way that almost underlines the strange necessity of what the crew is doing ten miles above them. We, the audience, don't really know The Doctor. We know what he likes (humans and helping others), we know some of his informed backstory- mostly via asides and various mutterings -but if we were to describe The Doctor, his thoughts and feelings, he is essentially an enigma. So it's all the more entrancing to finally get some real answers to who and what The Doctor is, especially about something so deathly serious as his belief system, his religion or lack thereof. The way it's presented, too, is furiously bold of Doctor Who. Most revelations come in the midst of something else happening, and come in whispers and lowered tones, they come in quick half-second lines; so there's always a distraction. In contrast, all we have is The Doctor in the middle of a black void, wrapped up in a full-body spacesuit from head to toe so we don't even get the chance to be distracted with Tennant's physical emoting. This is Doctor Who taking a stand and forcing the viewing audience to pay attention, to solely focus on what is being said and what it means to The Doctor as a character. So it's why lines like this are so incredible: The Doctor: "I believe...I believe I haven't seen everything, I don't know. It's funny isn't it? The things you make up, the rules. If that thing had said it came from beyond the universe, I'd believe it. But before the universe? Impossible. Doesn't fit my rule. Still, that's why I keep travelling. To be proved wrong." I mean, I could analyze this monologue for ages, just talk about what it means and how good it was for the rest of this review, but I'll be brief and merely say that The Doctor's informed worldview and internal credo is so fascinating; here is a man who is timeless, and man who has seen so much that is impossible to the point where one would just assume that there's nothing he will reject, and yet...there is. There's a limit to even The Doctor's imagination, things he will accept as true, but he still pursues that personally defined impossibility simply, well, because. He needs no other reason. It's just so fascinating that The Doctor is so plainly uncomfortable with the discussion of gods, because for all intents and purposes he is one; he can't ever really die, he lives for an unimaginably long time, can do anything, be anywhere, and has approaching-limitless knowledge. And yet he's a man who doesn't really have a higher faith, in fact is visibly awkward when asked about it. Why? The episode shies away from an easy answer, and I bet that discussion is still up for debate in the fan community, and for good reason. The second half of the episode is only sold due to the strength of its first half; watching The Doctor cavort around, while he monologues up a storm, slowly figuring out Satan's grand plan is a delight solely because we saw him at his most subdued and reflective for so much of the episode. It also helps that it keeps the theme expressed in his initial scenes of his deep discomfort with the concept of religions and deities; having to meet the Prince of Darkness himself is a nice payoff to the buildup promised by his own internal struggles and conflict over the metaphysical. Plus, I personally share Doctor Who's worldview on organized religion, as a whole; I'm a devout atheist, but I really have a fascination and love for people who believe, in much the same way that The Doctor is obsessed with and adores humanity. Personally speaking, I think a lot of religion is based off memetic transference of beliefs through generations and generations of human interaction, so the way that the ultimate bad, Satan, is, well, an idea really speaks and appeals to me. I wouldn't have been so hot on the fact that The Doctor's slow revelation of the fact that The Devil has transferred his consciousness to Toby, the human chump aboard Rose's ship, and how in order to kill Satan he has to kill Rose, with the line "Now I've seen a lot of this universe. I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demigods and would-be-gods, and out of all that, out of that whole pantheon, if I believe in one thing, just one thing...I believe in her." I still don't think Rose has, as a character, earned the level of importance The Doctor attaches to her, but Rose was an exceptionally competent character this episode, essentially single-handedly saving the crew and the day on her end (she figures out that Toby is Satan seconds before even The Doctor does), which was able to sell or at least make understandable his monologue, so as a whole the episode ended well. This was an episode that seemed to have a lot of things it wanted to say, on a lot of variously important topics, and did so in a remarkably competent, confident way. But, ultimately, it was an episode about hope, about the triumph of good in the face of evil- the Ultimate Evil, some would argue -and, you know what, I'm okay with that. Kill Satan, David Tennant. You earned it. Grade: A Random Thoughts:
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Sep 1, 2014 04:31
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The Ood get more complicated later.
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Sep 1, 2014 04:38
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Yea the Ood start off kinda as a 'wait what was the point there' thing but there's a pretty satisfying payoff.
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Sep 1, 2014 04:40
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Toxxupation posted:As promised, my thoughts on the Ood: I think that a race that needs to be enslaved is not a slave race. Slavery is by definition an act that involves an unwilling participant and I think this two-parter, as a whole, made a mistake by labelling them as a "slave race". I think it was to make some sort of moral allegory- I don't exactly know what, exactly, because this plot thread was pretty much completely dropped by the end of "Impossible Planet" and is never really addressed outside of the very end of "The Satan Pit" -but by doing so it just made the Ood confusing. This is the downside of layering your statements behind genre metaphor- you sometimes make the entire point so utterly alien (no pun intended) from reality that there's no real way one can mine a sort of lesson out of it. Again, there's an initial revulsion I have a la Rose to the idea of a race that specifically exists to enslave itself to a "higher" life form, but this revulsion is specifically based on my association with the word "slavery". So to me it's really not possible to make any form of statement on the Ood since their arc was based around being the antagonist rather than understanding their cultural norms. This is why I was disappointed in how cavalierly it was handled - it's a subject ripe for interesting exploration even if it is a minefield in terms of the show potentially coming down on the side of saying,"Well maybe some races WANT to be slaves?" However, by seemingly going out of their way not to pursue the issue of the morality of using the Ood as "slaves" (a very loaded term to be sure") and by making the future humans so dismissive and mocking of the concept, I feel the show ends up making that judgment anyway. Given that in the Empty Child 2-parter and The Unquiet Dead, the Doctor chides Rose for applying her "old-fashioned" sense of morality to future/advanced societies, I felt like Rose was being shown as being on the "wrong" side of the argument here. But then you have that scene at the end where the Captain reads out each Ood as a member of the missing crew also suggests that he at least posthumously considers them as more than just servants. I don't think part 2 quite holds up to the promise of part 1 outside of a few excellent scenes: the Doctor lowering himself into the pit is great, though it does come at the expense of the actual expert in the field who passively sits by and watches him go when she should have been champing at the bit to do it herself. I would have preferred the "beast" to have been absent/the pit empty when the Doctor arrived, both because Toby was possessed and also because I far prefer the idea of the creature being an idea/concept somehow imprisoned over an actual physical body with the traditional big red demon look.
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Sep 1, 2014 04:43
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I think the issue is with the "slave" word choice. Outside of a few snide remarks, I don't think there would be nearly the level of analysis if the show said "the Ood are a symbiotic race that ingratiate themselves to and aid other species in order to have their needs met." I mean, that's basically what domesticated animals like cats and dogs do. There's still a little bit of a sore spot with the fact that the Ood are clearly sentient and sapient, but it was almost directly the word "slave" that caused the problem rather than the premise of a "slave species" as presented by this episode.
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Sep 1, 2014 04:47
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Toxxupation posted:But yeah, I like this show  And yes, the Ood appear again. So we can discuss what happens in those episodes once Toxxupation gets that far, until then stick to what we learnt or theorised just based on these episodes. Please.
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Sep 1, 2014 04:55
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I can't even really call it a spoiler to say the Ood pop back up, that design is just too good for a one-off.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:05
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Oxxidation posted:I can't even really call it a spoiler to say the Ood pop back up, that design is just too good for a one-off. 
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Sep 1, 2014 05:08
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Toxxupation posted:Doctor Who Boo-yah.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:32
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Toxxupation posted:the titular Doctor isn't a human; he constantly marvels and becomes engrossed in even the smallest minutae of a random person's life; he practically pulls cartwheels when a character does something he approves of; and even when he's upset with humanity, when it's betrayed him or let him down, there's a sense that he dissaproves with a wry smile and a shake of his head. The Doctor loves humans, can't get enough of them, and even when he's mad he still revels in their mistakes the same way an upset parent would criticize a wayward child. Somewhere in between, Eccleston's Doctor was not quite the same as Tennant. He basically saw humans as evolved primates, consumed with little petty things and getting in over their heads. He gave praise when they showed stronger wills than he gave them credit for, but it was a cynical view none the less. I get the feeling if he was in this two partner (and much of this season feels like a new character going through the remainder of Nine's plot ideas) he would not be impressed and thrilled that humans had somehow managed to adapt to making a colony in such an uninhabitable place, but instead would be grumpy that the apes went and unleashed SpaceDevil and ignored all the obvious warnings. But yeah, the Tenth almost coddles humanity like it's his little ant farm. They have varying degrees of how much they are willing to trust people.
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Sep 1, 2014 06:34
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Loved the episode, but have to say Doctor Who has some of the worst gun shooting CGI I have ever seen.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:00
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Since it's been established that the Ood reappear, I just want to chime in saying that I like that the Ood and their status own properly addressed in this two parter. It's one of those things that makes the universe feel larger and more complicated that there are obviously things goin on that we only get the briefest glimpses of, much like how you could have a story set in the 1800's American south without the story bein about the evil of slavery.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:04
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Toxxupation posted:But yeah, I like this show (well, when it's not absolutely terrible). I guess I should be more accurate: I like this show's message. It doesn't come across as smug, easy moralizing trying to spread an insipid, reductionary message, it comes across as more hopeful and hope-filled instead. Most Doctor Who fans, at least, most of the dorkier, crustier ones, have reached a point like this. You have an idealized version of the show, what it's about, and that it's capable of in your brain. It bothers you when it doesn't do that, but you develop an affection for that ideal that causes you to tune in even when you know the show won't live up to it more often than not. 'cuz sometimes there's a miracle and the right story had the right director and writer and cast. Other old genre shows like The Twilight Zone or the original Star Trek work the same way. Also, the talk show host Craig Ferguson described the show as being thematically about the triumph of intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism. Which is about as well as that idea of what the show's about has been distilled.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:19
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Republican Vampire posted:Also, the talk show host Craig Ferguson described the show as being thematically about the triumph of intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism. Which is about as well as that idea of what the show's about has been distilled. Then I misquoted Ferguson at a Doctor Who premiere screening this month and ended up making an appearance on BBC America. Life's been weird for me lately.
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Sep 1, 2014 08:08
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Yeah, the chanting of ONE OF US ONE OF US is a bit silly, but you have reached the point that most Doctor Who fans are at. I don't know any fans of the show that love all the episodes. We're all aware that the show has some pretty bad lows, but we accept that because the highs are so gloriously high. The Impossible Planet/the Satan Pit is one of my very favourite Doctor Who stories, possibly my favourite altogether. The Doctor against the Actual Literal Devil is an idea that really shouldn't work, but the performances of the actors and the power of the writing manages to pull it off and not just make it tolerable but make it excellent. SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 09:25
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Isn't this the episode where Tennant is like "Tell her I......oh, she knows." about Rose?
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Sep 1, 2014 09:32
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Bown posted:Isn't this the episode where Tennant is like "Tell her I......oh, she knows." about Rose? Ground Control to Doctor Ten Chameleon circuit's dead...
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Sep 1, 2014 09:35
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Doctor Who "The Satan Pit" Series 2, Episode 9 Amazing how your impression of something can change when you go through it twice. All I remembered of "The Satan Pit" initially was the Doctor squaring off against a Devil that resembled, more than anything, a Quake boss, which did not leave a very fond impression. And while that scene was and remains dumb as hell - an inevitable casualty of what happens when you visually display a threat as overwhelming as the Devil with a budget outstripped by that of most university art departments - there's a ton of good stuff surrounding it. Occ's covered most of it, but I have a few things to throw in myself. First, again, is the pacing, which is astonishingly deliberate for this show and especially for the second half of a two-parter. There's only one chase scene, which isn't even that lengthy by Doctor Who's standards, and it's done without gimmicks or shoddy camera work or god-awful CGI; it's four people scrambling through a ventilation shaft with Taserball-branding octopus-men hot on their heels, trying to avoid electrocution on one end and asphyxiation on the other. The actors' panic (particularly Danny/Ronny Jhutti's, who finally gets a chance to shine now that most of his co-workers are dead) as they're gradually pinched between these two threats, paired with Captain Flane/Shaune Parkes' icy composure as the Ood cut down his door, really sells the tension of the situation in a way that no amount of bombastic music or bad special effects could have managed. Even Rose's little comedy routines with the group, which normally would have been grating, come off as more of an attempt to keep everyone, including herself, from falling to pieces as the next vent aerates. Which brings us to Rose herself, who is astonishingly competent in this episode. Separated from even communicating with the Doctor, her blithe disregard for mortal peril finally becomes an asset as she refuses to indulge any of the horror-movie bullshit going down on the station. Whereas her airy attitude either puzzled or infuriated side characters in previous episodes, here it's a stabilizing force as she sets the crew members on their separate roles and prevents them from experiencing cardiac arrest in the vents. She maneuvers her way back round to the Doctor as she promised, and while she needs to be sedated to get dragged away from them, she doesn't spend the whole trip away from the planet shrieking to get her ET BF back; instead, she quietly riddles out the suspicious nature of their escape and, when the Devil finally makes his appearance, immediately jettisons his rear end out to space. Satan, sweetie, you're just a lanky bloke with tattoos Sharpie'd on your face, Rose has seen worse than you before breakfast. Her actions leading up to this point makes her "Go to hell" quip, and the Doctor's speech about having faith in her, feel earned where they would've otherwise been unbearably cheesy. Tennant, too, brings his A-game - I still maintain that the man's got no range, but at least here he knows which direction to twist his dial in, even if he has to twist it until it's on the verge of snapping off. His contemplative scene in the void of the Pit (the abyss, if you'd like to get Nietzschean about it) has been praised enough by Occ, but his bar-raising hamminess against the Devil itself is also worth mentioning, if only because I worry that if I didn't mention it Tennant's mugging face would appear on my screen until I did. It almost feels like this episode's producers knew their CGI would be a drat mess, and so kept as much camera time as possible on Tennant himself as he tried, alternatively, to think through the true nature of the Devil's prison and see if he could make his chin and his forehead switch places. His clownish contemplation of the situation completely drains away what little threat is present from the Diablo 2 boss yelling in front of him, which is appropriate, because, in the end, the Devil isn't really a threat. Yup, on this rewatch I had to conclude that even the awful CGI Satan wasn't quite as bad as I first thought, because, really, the Devil in the Pit isn't even the part we're supposed to view as the antagonist. The Devil's hostility for the last two episodes has been present in his mind games and malicious ventriloquism of everyone and everything around him, from the computers to the Ood to Toby, while the roaring hulk of its main body lies chained and useless - in short, the Devil's strength lies in other people, not itself. The thing in the Pit is a paper tiger, a glorified decoy, to the point where the Devil itself would be happy to get rid of the thing once it's free of its captors' gravity trap, hitchhiking away in Toby's body - and just as an aside, knowing that the Devil was really in control of Toby the whole time makes some nice little details apparent, like Rose's complaint of a foul smell (sulfur) whenever she's around him, and Toby's eagerness to make the Captain pop the vents early (because he doesn't need to breathe in the first place). And when the Doctor disregards its little dilemma and sends them all plummeting in the black hole, both halves are able to do nothing but ineffectually shriek at him. In particular, Toby-Devil's hysterical ranting as the ship loses gravity sounds less like a boast and more like a prayer, meaning that, in its last extremity, the Devil is praying to itself; but the Devil, like most of us, can't do anything alone, and so it dies and our heroes live. Without the Doctor and Rose, this budget sci-fi schlockfest would have ended, at its most optimistic, on a grinning red-eyed Toby as the ship broke free of the gravity well, but with them, the ending's bittersweet, and even the Devil gets its due. Absolutely much better than I expected, wonder if the rest of Season 2 will follow suit. So what have we got next? ...oh.
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Sep 1, 2014 15:52
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Oxxidation posted:So what have we got next? 
Soothing Vapors fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 16:09
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Toxxupation posted:"The Satan Pit" Rose annoyed me so much in this episode. She tries a little too hard to mimic The Doctor and it actually ends up working?! It felt too forced/fake and I couldn't buy it.
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Sep 1, 2014 16:11
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Oxxidation posted:So what have we got next? 
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Sep 1, 2014 16:19
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Oxxidation posted:So what have we got next? 
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Sep 1, 2014 16:36
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Hmm, I don't recall off the top of my head what the next episode is, lemme look it up....
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Sep 1, 2014 16:41
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Oh no, it is, isn't it? Well, Godspeed, Occupation.
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Sep 1, 2014 17:20
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There's one of the Hustle guy in it, I like this guy because I thought he was Neil Patrick Harris for a long time.
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Sep 1, 2014 17:22
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Fun fact: neither I nor oxxidation have seen the next two episodes, so...yeah
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Sep 1, 2014 17:23
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