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Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009

Hakkesshu posted:

At the risk of being called a dumb dumb

i'm calling you a dumb dumb because we no talkie about future episodes.

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Hakkesshu
Nov 4, 2009


Oh, sorry, I thought it was fair game to just post preliminary impressions of the next episodes as long as you don't talk about the actual content. I'll edit it out.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.

Soothing Vapors posted:

If you were really men you'd review every radio play and then host a podcast where you are forced to interact with DoctorWhat for a solid hour about each and every godforsaken one of them

I really want this to happen at least once now.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Jurgan posted:

I agree they're very good, but I don't think we're supposed to talk about future episodes.

And now edit out the quote :shobon:

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

When was that wacky, badly animated cartoon with Martha and the Doctor made that has Anthony Stuart Head as the voice of the bad guy broadcast? It must have been while they were still filming this season and I think it takes place between the Lazarus Experiment and 42. I know Agyeman and Tennant provided voices. Doctor Who has so much peripheral stuff, you could probably consume it forever and never end up at the end of it all.

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009

Hakkesshu posted:

Oh, sorry, I thought it was fair game to just post preliminary impressions of the next episodes as long as you don't talk about the actual content. I'll edit it out.

nah, OP wants to be completely unspoiled and not have fan opinion color his own opinion about an episode.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Bicyclops posted:

When was that wacky, badly animated cartoon with Martha and the Doctor made that has Anthony Stuart Head as the voice of the bad guy broadcast? It must have been while they were still filming this season and I think it takes place between the Lazarus Experiment and 42. I know Agyeman and Tennant provided voices. Doctor Who has so much peripheral stuff, you could probably consume it forever and never end up at the end of it all.

It was concurrent with this series

RodShaft
Jul 31, 2003
Like an evil horny Santa Claus.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

It was concurrent with this series

I believe it was aired in seven minute segments throughout this season during Saturday morning cartoons, or whatever British kids have.

Dr Jankenstein
Aug 6, 2009

Hold the newsreader's nose squarely, waiter, or friendly milk will countermand my trousers.

Attitude Indicator posted:

nah, OP wants to be completely unspoiled and not have fan opinion color his own opinion about an episode.

Congrats on being this thread's first probation. Also, the first person I've had to put on probation! --Annakie

Going through this season I forgot how many of this season's episodes I had attributed to other companions, which says something about how ineptly they handled Martha. Cause it's like I have these two conflicting images of the Martha era, Martha being an absolute badass, and then the whole "so forgettable in doing anything notable as a companion that I thought this was a Rose ep" thing. Outside of the episodes where the fact that Martha is not white is a major plot point, I'd thought were all dragging along short blonde and dumpy.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Somebody fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Sep 24, 2014

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

AA is for Quitters posted:

I don't know how much of the old series he knows and if it'd count as spoiling

Then don't talk about it. Don't make Annakie have to edit another one of your posts.

thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Sep 24, 2014

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Doctor Who
"Human Nature"
Series 3, Episode 8

"Human Nature" is a really good episode, and much like "The Unquiet Dead" and "Tooth and Claw" are indicative of the types of episodes of Doctor Who that I wished constituted the "average" Doctor Who episode of television. It's an often-times delightful episode of television that has a self-assuredness and confidence often lacking in a "normal" episode of Who. It's also a really interesting episode in the sense of it breaking the mold in regards to what, exactly, a two-parter of Doctor Who usually is, but I'll get to that later.

"Human Nature" opens to The Doctor and Martha escaping from a clearly about-to-arrive alien threat, which can apparently follow The Doctor throughout the universe and time in general, and will apparently never stop following him. As such, desperate measures need to be called for, and The Doctor holds up a fob watch...

Cut to a very Doctor-looking John Smith (David Tennant) waking up in 1913, a teacher at an English boys' boarding school.

The cut from an in medias res opening (The Doctor and Martha running away from an encroaching threat, with no explanation of what they did to piss the threat off, what the threat looks like, or even what the threat is) to an in medias res opening, with John Smith waking up, still no real explanation of why he looks exactly the same as The Doctor, is a bold choice for Who, a show that loves explaining and overexplaining its premise and conceit with an almost alarming amount of redundancy. Usually, the show assumes the viewing audience is either children, or mentally retarded; beyond the double entendres, everything is squarely aimed at the lowest common denominator. It's a show that clings to standard, stereotypical storytelling conceits and narratives, so even having one in medias res opening, much less two, and in quick succession, is noteworthy.

Also noteworthy is its reliance on implied over overt storytelling; most of the time Doctor Who tells its audience who the villain is, what its motivation is, and in what specific way The Doctor and company have fallen into their sights. Although this episode does eventually explain what the big bad is- The Family, a family (natch) of aliens that seem to be able to hijack other aliens' bodies all Body Snatchers style -beyond that, there's no explanation of what The Doctor and Martha did prior to the cold open. It's all left up to the viewer to infer, and it makes the episode all the more fascinating as a result.

It's an episode that understands what story it wants to tell, and because of it has an air of confidence and decisiveness that permeates the episode. The rather shocking introduction of John Smith genuinely worked on me; I was confused as to what The Doctor was doing- was he pretending to be someone else, assuming a different name as he has frequently done before? It seemed so, but then the first scene of John Smith you see is him interacting with his maid Martha, telling her about the weird dream he had where he was an alien with crazy powers. But then Martha shuts him down, telling him that's it's all clearly a dream and he's just a schoolteacher living in 1913? What is going on?

It's an episode that is able to keep a sense of mystery about itself, something so often not present in Doctor Who in any way whatsoever. Although the sense of confusion quickly fades- it becomes clear that Martha-the-maid is more than she lets on, as she tells her fellow maid Jenny (Rebekah Staton) that she's leaving quickly to visit "abroad" in that vague, winking-at-the-camera way that means she's actually talking about the TARDIS.

But even beyond that, there's a real sense of deliberation to the episode that keeps what would be otherwise a dull bore a riveting hour of television. There's actually a fairly layered plot- John Smith turns out to be The Doctor, of course, who literally made himself into a human (implanting himself with a false memory) to escape The Family, and then hid out as a traveling teacher under contract at this all-boys elementary school during the early 1910s with Martha as his maid/keeper. Unfortunately, The Family show up and start converting random British passersby into, again, Body Snatcher spies, as they're trying to hunt down the location of The Doctor (they apparently have no idea what he looks like, but can "detect" Time Lord via like a scent or something, hence the reason he turned himself human). At the same time, one of Mr. Smith's students, Tim Latimer, discovers Mr. Smith's watch (which contain all of The Doctor's memories) and, because Tim is also slightly psychic or something, he quickly gets "infected" with the watch's implanted memories and decides to keep it around. This unfortunately leads to the climax of the episode where, as The Family as skinsuited humans hold Martha and Matron Joan Redfern (Jessica Hynes), Mr. Smith's lover, hostage, and order him to choose which of the two people they will kill unless he changes back to Time Lord, which is both impossible due to Mr. Smith not having the watch and impossible because John has no earthly idea what The Family is talking about. It's actually an interesting and engaging cliffhanger for a remarkably well-constructed episode of television.

That's honestly, though, secondary to the whole thing. "Human Nature" is an episode that, although it actually has a fairly well-developed, interesting plot, it pushes mostly to the background and keeps around mostly to keep the engine running, as it were.

It focuses much more closely on establishing the world John Smith lives in- the school where he works, the people he interacts with, the year he now inhabits, etc, over establishing the conceit of the episode, introducing its antagonists, and having the plot work towards some sort of denouement.

Instead, "Human Nature" turns almost into an unaired episode of "Downton Abbey" (well, before it became an awful soap opera- Well, before it became MORE of an awful soap opera). It's an episode that takes a hard, unflinching (well, for Doctor Who anyways) look into the realities of what early 1900s life was like in England, and actually makes its time period an actor in the story as opposed to the place where The Doctor can be all Doctory in. Doctor Who, essentially, stops being a sci-fi series and essentially turns into a period piece, and a well-done one at that. I mean, the TARDIS doesn't even show up until 18 minutes in, and even after it appears the majority of the remainder of the episode is spent characters first, so it really does feel like you get to know all the major players especially well by episode's end.

This is especially true when considering John Smith. What's ends up the most interesting, and bold decision, of this episode is that the writer decided to make John Smith into his own, separate character. Sure, there's implications all along that this is The Doctor- he constantly brings up how he feels like he's forgotten something important that has happened, and accidentally drops references to his actual history- when asked where he learned to draw, he responds "Gallifrey" -but on the whole, John Smith isn't The Doctor.

John Smith is a far more subtle, refined, upper-class individual than The Tenth Doctor ever is, which of course completely fits the time period of the episode and the position John Smith holds far better than The Doctor's manic glee ever could. But the nuances of his character go beyond even that surface bit; he's awkward in a way that's functionally different than Ten's awkwardness, he's racist in the way that the "impassioned" elite of the time were- his response of "Cultural Differences" as explanation when Martha bursts in and starts raving about him being The Doctor is genuinely hilarious, especially when he follows the line up with the patronizingly condescending explanation of how fiction works, as if Martha were a child.

The point is, John Smith is not The Doctor. John might look like him, even have some of The Doctor's misplaced memories and talents- apparently The Doctor was amazing at cricket, who knew -but John and The Doctor are two separate people, and the script knows it.

By treating John and The Doctor as two separate characters, the script accomplishes three things: One, it sells the episode. The conceit is that The Doctor changes his entire body down to the molecular level by becoming human, which sounds a lot like when he regenerates except without regenerating. If having The Doctor turn into a human meant all we got was The Doctor who now was a human, it would make the episode feel like a cheat, wherein RTD wanted a way for The Doctor to escape certain harm by regenerating without losing David Tennant in the process. But by having John Smith be different, and be noticeably different, from The Doctor, the episode's conceit makes a modicum of sense. Two, it creates excitement for the episode as a whole; since John Smith is a different character (just with the same actor), we get to learn his individual idiosyncracies in a way that makes the episode narratively exciting even when it's during the more staid, slow-moving parts (which is nearly all of it).

Third and finally, though, and most importantly, the episode's romance arc lands. The Doctor experiencing romance is old hat, it's extremely tired and feels forced and usually so ill-handled as to ruin otherwise good or even great episodes of Who; this episode's main focus is on the developing romance between John and Joan (the matron of the school that John works at). Normally, this wouldn't work in the slightest, but because it's happening to John and not The Doctor, it does work, because it's not happening to The Doctor, just someone who looks a lot like him and even has some weird memory issues. It makes the romance arc feel real and earned even in spite of Joan being kind of an incredibly dull character incredibly boringly played by Jessica Hynes, because Joan and John's blossoming relationship feels time period appropriate- even Joan's almost criminal lack of character could be attributed to feminine sensibilities at the time in regards to having an interesting personality.

None of this would work if it weren't for David Tennant being able to be so flexible acting-wise. The script demands that he, essentially, be two completely, wildly different characters during the episode- The Doctor during the very beginning and one pre-taped segment, and John Smith the rest of the time. If Tennant weren't able to sell the transformation, or indeed rein in his more...Tennant-y qualities as John Smith, then the entire episode would collapse like a house of cards. Which is why it's all the more surprising how good a job he does; I honestly think that "Human Nature" is perhaps Tennant's best performance so far in this show, even despite it having a big showy moment, simply because of how the script demands he play it so subtle and nuanced. There's even stuff like his accent- which goes much higher and refined as John- that helps completely sell John as an entirely separate character from The Doctor.

Which is why a certain scene in the middle of the episode with Martha is so bad. As Martha watches John and Joan's relationship slowly bloom, she runs back to the TARDIS and pouts to herself about it, with the capper of the absolutely unbearable line "You had to fall in love with a human...and it wasn't me!"

Like come on, Martha! He's not The Doctor. I figured that out in 30 minutes, you couldn't figure that out in watching him for two months? Really? It's just completely eye-rollingly bad, and it even undercuts the point the episode was trying to make in regards to differentiating between John and The Doctor- The Doctor doesn't fall in love, and get married, because he's an undying alien with an obsession for placing himself in lethal situations that leave a large body count. John is an early twentieth century schoolteacher who, due to his particular class placement only realistically has one option for a wife: Joan herself, not even to mention his personal feelings on the matter. It doesn't even make sense- Martha was literally making out with someone else the episode prior, why is she so hung up on this dude? All it does is cheapen Martha's character with the exact same sort of weird possessive jealousy issues that Rose had in her seasons, except in this episode it doesn't make a loving lick of sense because it's not even the same loving person. Ugh.

It's bewildering how bad, and how unnecessary (they could've cut the scene out entirely and nothing in the episode would've changed, literally at all, up to and including the climax being John choosing between Martha and Joan) this scene is, and it's all the more that's the pity, considering that that scene and the generalized terribleness of The Family's goons (literally sentient scarecrows) is what holds this episode back from an A for me.

It's a scene that's not only bad, but it muddies the episode's point; the episode is about human nature! It's about how humans are different, in some fundamental way, from other aliens, even Time Lords! Hence, that's why even though John looks the same as The Doctor, why he's a different person! Because "human nature", whatever indefinable thing that is, makes us different! So by having Martha go through her whole "Why doesn't he like me?!" shtick, it's not only bad for Martha (who, outside of this is wonderful: Literally trying to slap some sense into The Doctor, the way she tests possessed Jenny to see if she's an alien, and her final scene with Joan, letting her down easy before trying to bring The Doctor back in a futile attempt to stave off the encroaching aliens), it kind of fundamentally destroys the entire premise of the episode.

It's frustrating, because so much of this episode is so well done, and in a subtle and understated way that's refreshing for Doctor Who. But because of that scene and because there's no big emotional or layered scene to counteract it- we don't get a scene like Nancy's confession in "The Doctor Dances", or Pete's final, beautiful scene with Rose in Father's Day -no big sort of punch that allows me to look past its flaws, I kind of have to dwell on how bad and unnecessary that Martha TARDIS scene was, and how much it ruins the narrative point "Human Nature" wants to make.

Still, though, it's a great episode that works on nearly every level it tries, and is so tonally different from what it usually is, and is so successful at that tonal difference, that I can't be too hard on this episode as a whole.

Grade: B

Random Thoughts:
  • I was refreshed by Martha the maid finally, FINALLY experiencing racism when going back in time, because boy oh boy was it loving weird that people in the literal 1600s regarded a black person as anything other than subhuman, much less a black woman, much less treated her with the respect she deserved.
  • It was weird seeing Thomas Sangster and Harry Lloyd in major roles on this show, especially considering the fact that Thomas Sangster was playing a psychic kid who was wise beyond his years and Harry Lloyd was portraying a self-centered, somewhat dashing rear end in a top hat. It's like, wow, even seven years ago these actors were getting typecast. Also, does Thomas Sangster like, not age or something?! He was apparently 17 at the time this episode aired, and was 23 when he taped this most recent season of Game of Thrones. Dude looks like he's barely 15.
  • Oxx showed me that cut scene where David Tennant is bullshitting in front of the camera for his farewell video to Martha and it's pretty loving great, guys. If that scene weren't cut this episode might've gotten an A.
  • Special note needs to go out to Harry Lloyd as Baines, who is scene-stealingly good as the leader of the villains. He puts in just the right amount of camp into his performance, as is still able to sell the creepy and altogether inhuman quality of The Family. Also, his final monologue to cap the episode was so great.
  • Baines: "Maid or matron? Your friend or your lover? Your choice."
  • The Doctor: "One: Don't let me hurt anyone. We can't have that, but you know what humans are like."

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Toxxupation posted:

Oxx showed me that cut scene where David Tennant is bullshitting in front of the camera for his farewell video to Martha and it's pretty loving great, guys. If that scene weren't cut this episode might've gotten an A.

Does someone have a link to this? I haven't seen it.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Human Nature really relies on the central concept of the episode, but it's heavy enough to lean on. The body snatchers stuff is mostly driven by the acting in my opinion. They just play their schoolboy archetypes so well, you don't care how many times it's been written. The Doctor being good at cricket is sort of an old joke.

Also, goddamn it, AA is for Quitters, you've gotta edit out that first paragraph, bro.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




AA is for Quitters posted:

Which means this drat arc needs to hurry up and finish because I don't know how much

NONE OF IT now edit that out

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

Toxxupation posted:

Instead, "Human Nature" turns almost into an unaired episode of "Downton Abbey" (well, before it became an awful soap opera- Well, before it became MORE of an awful soap opera).

Those "well"s turned this into a David Tennant line in my head. Weeeeelll...

Toxxupation posted:

apparently The Doctor was amazing at cricket, who knew

Of course he was!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You have to wonder if Tennant just started doing the "Welllll" and they liked it so much that they started incorporating it into scripts. Tom Baker does it a lot too, but it sounds a lot different with Tennant's frantic way of interrupting himself, and it's definitely difficult to picture Eccleston having any of those quirks.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

I mentioned earlier in the thread that watching this episode and the ones right after it when taping them for a friend is what made me go back and give Tennant a proper chance... thinking about it now, I'm really lucky that it was these episodes that I happened to see and not Daleks in Manhattan or something.

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.
I wonder how much better Season 3 would've been if they had entirely removed the whole "Martha's unrequited love :qq:" aspect.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Bicyclops posted:

You have to wonder if Tennant just started doing the "Welllll" and they liked it so much that they started incorporating it into scripts. Tom Baker does it a lot too, but it sounds a lot different with Tennant's frantic way of interrupting himself, and it's definitely difficult to picture Eccleston having any of those quirks.

You can see a lot of Tennant's Tennantisms getting clearly scripted in a lot more later on than in his early stuff, and I'm not sure if it was flanderisation or just that he invented them himself and then they started writing it.

Lycus posted:

I wonder how much better Season 3 would've been if they had entirely the removed the whole "Martha's unrequited love :qq:" aspect.

Yeah, at the time as it happened everyone was basically reacting the same as Toxx. It was so infuriating because as a character she was such a useful, capable person and they wasted so much time on this bullshit.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Sep 24, 2014

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

Toxxupation posted:

But because of that scene and because there's no big emotional or layered scene to counteract it- we don't get a scene like Nancy's confession in "The Doctor Dances", or Pete's final, beautiful scene with Rose in Father's Day -no big sort of punch that allows me to look past its flaws, I kind of have to dwell on how bad and unnecessary that Martha TARDIS scene was, and how much it ruins the narrative point "Human Nature" wants to make.

I kind of wish you guys watched the two parters in one viewing session. (Although I know that they originally aired with a week in between, but still.)

thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Sep 24, 2014

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
Neither of us have the time for that during the workweek, unfortunately. Hell, I won't even have my writeup in til tomorrow because it's already 12:30 over here in the smog farms.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Yeah it takes me roughly three hours to post a review, from watching an episode ( which I frequently rewind and pause to take notes/quotes) which usually takes an hour and 1-2 hours to write the review

It took me nearly 3 to write this one which is why oxx's is going to be tomorrow

But yeah I can't do six hours of thinking about doctor who during a work day id kill myself

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Toxxupation posted:

Yeah it takes me roughly three hours to post a review, from watching an episode ( which I frequently rewind and pause to take notes/quotes) which usually takes an hour and 1-2 hours to write the review

It took me nearly 3 to write this one which is why oxx's is going to be tomorrow

But yeah I can't do six hours of thinking about doctor who during a work day id kill myself

Considering your avatar, it seems some one wants exactly that. Be wary!

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

Oof, yeah, fair enough!

I'm just really looking forward to the reviews for all the rest of this season, essentially. Hehe.

Eridine
Aug 11, 2011
First, I'd like to say that this episode (and the next, since it's a two parter) are among my favorite in the new series. There is really only one other story (another two parter) that tops it, in my opinion.

Second, as to your grievance about Martha's line in the TARDIS, I look at the scene a little differently, in a way that I think actually makes it quite clever.

At this point in their companionship, I think Martha has realized that she isn't going to be getting herself some Doctor-strange. Whether or not she has fully admitted it to herself is another matter, but I think the character is smart enough to get that. As a result, I think she was perhaps looking at this situation as the one opportunity she might get to fulfill those desires. She can never be with the Doctor...but maybe she could be with John Smith. Looked at from this angle, I think there are some important differences from the usual "Martha wants a bit of the old Time Lord business" scenes.

If you do look at it from this angle, then it actually suggests that she has given up on ever really getting the Doctor, but is willing to settle for a pale imitation. This is interesting to me because it shows a person approaching a relationship in a realistically unhealthy manner, which is something you don't usually see. Relationships in general (particularly on this show) are often portrayed in what I would consider a very unrealistic manner, especially when it comes to the bad parts. Seeing a character want to substitute someone that looks like the person they want is, to me, an excellent example of, dare I say it, Human Nature.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

Eridine posted:

At this point in their companionship, I think Martha has realized that she isn't going to be getting herself some Doctor-strange. Whether or not she has fully admitted it to herself is another matter, but I think the character is smart enough to get that. As a result, I think she was perhaps looking at this situation as the one opportunity she might get to fulfill those desires. She can never be with the Doctor...but maybe she could be with John Smith.

If Martha seriously believed that an upper-class boarding school teacher would hook up with an "inherited" black maid in TYOOL 1913 then she wouldn't just be lovesick, she'd be terminally retarded. This theory's dead on arrival.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Oxxidation posted:

If Martha seriously believed that an upper-class boarding school teacher would hook up with an "inherited" black maid in TYOOL 1913 then she wouldn't just be lovesick, she'd be terminally retarded. This theory's dead on arrival.

Yeah, if anything her being "desperate for a pale imitation" only makes it that much more groanworthy, and I don't think it's more realistic about depicting an unhealthy relationship, which is certainly not something I wanted to see in my friendly spaceman show, anyway.

Eridine
Aug 11, 2011

Oxxidation posted:

If Martha seriously believed that an upper-class boarding school teacher would hook up with an "inherited" black maid in TYOOL 1913 then she wouldn't just be lovesick, she'd be terminally retarded. This theory's dead on arrival.

I would first point out that a liaison like that was probably not unheard of at the time.

Secondly, even if it was, that can actually make it more poignant. Were we to concede that such a thing could never never happen, then this shows that Martha, once her hope had been rekindled by the situation, was then willing to believe something impossible could happen. Getting trapped by hope like this is another element of humanity put on display for us here. I certainly understand why you might not agree with the theory, but I think it has some merit, and at the very least makes that otherwise unbearable line bearable.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Eridine posted:


Secondly, even if it was, that can actually make it more poignant.

Why does this make it more poignant, though? Her unrequited crush turned up to 11 is supposed to redeem it somehow? I'm afraid I don't follow you at all.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

Eridine posted:

I would first point out that a liaison like that was probably not unheard of at the time.

Secondly, even if it was, that can actually make it more poignant. Were we to concede that such a thing could never never happen, then this shows that Martha, once her hope had been rekindled by the situation, was then willing to believe something impossible could happen. Getting trapped by hope like this is another element of humanity put on display for us here. I certainly understand why you might not agree with the theory, but I think it has some merit, and at the very least makes that otherwise unbearable line bearable.

And now we're approaching bodice-ripper territory. I'm envisioning a title that takes up about a fifth as much space as the author's name. There is a rose on the cover. A man is aggressively bare-chested at me.

Please stop fanficcing in my thread. There was a whole thing earlier. It was horrible.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

"The Time Lord's Wife", an interracial erotic science fiction novel by Destiny Griffiths, part three in the "Rose's Thorn" series, Bad Wolf Publishing

Eridine
Aug 11, 2011

Oxxidation posted:

And now we're approaching bodice-ripper territory. I'm envisioning a title that takes up about a fifth as much space as the author's name. There is a rose on the cover. A man is aggressively bare-chested at me.

Please stop fanficcing in my thread. There was a whole thing earlier. It was horrible.

I guess the flowery language I used there did sound a little bodice-ripper-y.

Although I would point out that those expectations were subverted (since he did not, after all, rip Martha's bodice off) which is what I liked about it.

Anyway, I apologize for fanficcing up the thread, that certainly wasn't my intention, although I guess I can see how it kind of looked like it.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Toxxupation posted:

"The Time Lord's Wife", an interracial erotic science fiction novel by Destiny Griffiths, part three in the "Rose's Thorn" series, Bad Wolf Publishing

I wouldn't be surprised if this basically was one of those novels people wrote in between the show going off the air in the 80s and the 2005 revival.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Toxxupation posted:

"The Time Lord's Wife"

:suspense:

bawk
Mar 31, 2013

I actually really hated this entire story arc for reasons I can't get into until next episode, but the scene with Martha in this episode was a huge factor for it as well. She's smart, she's capable, she's loyal--she is not that dumb to assume that, just because the Doctor is now a human, he'll be a human that falls in love with her for no reason.

Although I really enjoy that this is essentially a role reversal, in which Martha gets to act as the Doctor trying to get through to the companion (John Smith) about TIMEY WIMEY mumbo jumbo... And she explicitly gets set time to pine over her lost love.

Eridine
Aug 11, 2011

Bicyclops posted:

Why does this make it more poignant, though? Her unrequited crush turned up to 11 is supposed to redeem it somehow? I'm afraid I don't follow you at all.

In composing this response, I came to understand more the accusation of "fanfic" that was leveled at me. Explaining my perspective certainly does make it look like I am writing fanfic for the episode.

Basically, an unrequited crush that had been accepted as unrequited and then brought back to life when there is the faintest hint of possibility, even if it turns out there are major obstacles in the way, just seems very...human to me.

Anyway, since I've been asked to stop this will be my last response on the matter unless one of our fine threadrunners asks me another question.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I love this episode, and it's primarily because - as noted - the show and Tennant do such a fantastic job of making John Smith so clearly a completely different person to the Doctor. I think the moment it really hit home for me was when Hutchinson complains that Latimer is being shoddy during their gun practice session and asks for permission to beat him. Smith doesn't even remotely hesitate, he just gives an instant and bored "permission granted", more interested in chatting with the Headmaster.

Sure there are those moments where bits of the Doctor peek through, but Smith isn't the Doctor pretending to be human, he IS human - his own distinct and unique individual utterly separate from the Time Lord.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?
Of course, it's worth remarking that this two-parter is based on a Wilderness Years novel featuring the Seventh Doctor.

BSam
Nov 24, 2012

You guys mentioned the trailers for the next episodes previously. Did you watch the next episodes trailer? I won't discuss it but just this time I hope you saw it.

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Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

I cannot wait for your review of part two!

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