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I can't wait until your part 2 review, 'cause this is apparently the only part of season 3 I remember besides Martha's initial characterization. On a similar note, I can't understand why I mentally blocked all of Martha's doctor pining. Especially since that's what I hated about Rose, and I always thought of Martha being a much better character than her.
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Sep 24, 2014 08:14
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MikeJF posted:Does someone have a link to this? I haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlltuwXw4wo
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Sep 24, 2014 08:25
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Very excited for the review of part 2.
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Sep 24, 2014 08:27
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This 2-parter is my favourite story Doctor Who ever did. The setting is captured perfectly and with so much poignancy, there's a constant sense of impending tragedy in WW1 waiting just around the corner. Harry Lloyd is so fantastic as Baines that hearing he'd been cast in the GoT pilot was the reason I became interested in the show/books. Thomas Sangster is also perfect as Latimer and there's a wonderful creepy atmosphere from Baines, the girl with the red balloon and the scarecrows. Tennant's restrained performance is the best he gives all series. The rest will have to wait for after they've done part 2 but yeah, this kind of story is the reason I watch Doctor Who.
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Sep 24, 2014 08:37
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Toxxupation posted:Random Thoughts: I love this cliffhanger so much because for once they don't go down the usual completely cloth-headed route of asking the one question ("Oh no, the Doctor is in mortal danger, will he escape???") that we always know the answer to. It says "Doctor Who" in the title! Of course he's going to escape. I love that somebody was capable of thinking slightly outside the box for a change and making the critical question one that doesn't have an obvious answer.
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Sep 24, 2014 08:37
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It should be noted that the other episode the writer of this two parter wrote for the series was Father's Day. And knowing that, they do both have a similar quiet, contemplative tone. Clearly he should come back.
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Sep 24, 2014 08:44
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MikeJF posted:It should be noted that the other episode the writer of this two parter wrote for the series was Father's Day. And knowing that, they do both have a similar quiet, contemplative tone. He's written a bunch of novels, audios, and comics!
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Sep 24, 2014 09:08
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DoctorWhat posted:He's written a bunch of novels, audios, and comics! Yes, I know.
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Sep 24, 2014 09:14
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oh woops, I don't look at usernames properly because the wii u browser screen area is too small
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Sep 24, 2014 09:23
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Re: Martha in Elizabethan England, there were actually plenty of black people around London in those times, many of them freemen who worked and owned businesses. They're just not often talked about in history classes and such because the way history is taught tends to focus on all white people, all the time. It's a very common and usually inaccurate historical peccadillo that people of colour past a certain century mark had either no role in European societies or were exclusively there as slaves. Racism still existed in droves, of course - Queen Elizabeth herself issued a royal proclamation that there were too many black people in England and she thought they ought to be deported, though no action came of this - and slavery existed, but far outnumbering the enslaved were sizeable communities of free black British citizens, many of whom were quite respected or well-off. So, it was far from a perfect situation, but it's actually pretty plausible that Martha could get along well in Elizabethan London, and equally plausible that the real Shakespeare met and knew black people who were his peers and contemporaries.
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Sep 24, 2014 09:27
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I would add that a lot of how western society tends to view race in history is inspired by the more modern, more pervasive tropes of American antebellum slavery, which have had such impact on modern race narratives as to strongly colour our perceptions of how race was thought of in the time before it. Marriage between black and white wasn't considered a major transgression in Elizabethan Britain either, for instance, even amongst the upper classes - there are plenty of records of a bereaved lord or lady remarrying to one of their black household servants and having legitimate children with them, as well as records of interracial marriages amongst the merchant and working classes. This is a bit of natter, I suppose, but I think it's an interesting topic and a misconception worth addressing. e: interestingly enough, by 1913, colonialist culture has probably made Britain as a society far more racist than it was in Shakespeare's time. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 09:56
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Can you guys recommend any good reading material on the subject?
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Sep 24, 2014 10:21
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Great job on discussing this episode without spoiling the next so far guys, seriously.  I had to hand out my first probation earlier though, so please review this post to remind yourself what not to post, especially if people in the thread literally tell you to go edit your post, because they're probably right. The reason it has to be so strict isn't necessarily because something is an outright spoiler but sometimes a small post about a theme or whatever turns into someone else sneaking a little more information in which makes someone else respond with a little more information and soon within 5 posts you might as well have outright said Martha is a Rutan. It's better to just not start at all, which is why the rules of the thread are strict and yet now so clearly outlined and linked to as the first thing in the OP. --- Also, yeah, this episode has like some of Martha's very best moments of this season and then THE VERY WORST. Even as a gigantic Martha fan I cringe and can barely watch the scene inside the TARDIS. It's such a black mark on her character as a whole. At the same time, she handles herself so admirably. She's been scrubbing floors and dealing with racist little assholes for two and a half months and hasn't lost her cool. The place she's been put in is terrible. On a meta level of course the setting makes a great episode but on a character level this episode makes me even more angry at The Doctor for not picking (or making the TARDIS pick, whatever) a time era when Martha wouldn't be considered subhuman. Seriously lovely on his / its part.
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Sep 24, 2014 11:21
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Annakie posted:She's been scrubbing floors and dealing with racist little assholes for two and a half months Realistically, she's been dealing with racist little arseholes for her entire life.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:00
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Android Blues posted:Re: Martha in Elizabethan England, there were actually plenty of black people around London in those times, many of them freemen who worked and owned businesses. They're just not often talked about in history classes and such because the way history is taught tends to focus on all white people, all the time. It's a very common and usually inaccurate historical peccadillo that people of colour past a certain century mark had either no role in European societies or were exclusively there as slaves. For one thing Othello features a Moor (either Black or Arabic-the term is somewhat ambiguous at this point in time) of high social standing who's brought low because of the fact his white subordinate's a manipulative bastard.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:06
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Jerusalem posted:I think the moment it really hit home for me was when Hutchinson complains that Latimer is being shoddy during their gun practice session and asks for permission to beat him. Smith doesn't even remotely hesitate, he just gives an instant and bored "permission granted", more interested in chatting with the Headmaster. Yes, that was a stand-out moment for me as well. It helps that we saw how the Doctor would behave if he was a teacher last season in School Reunion. Rarity posted:The setting is captured perfectly and with so much poignancy, there's a constant sense of impending tragedy in WW1 waiting just around the corner. I loved the quiet resignation of the headmaster. He knew they were training kids for the wood chipper, but still went along with it because that's what had to be done.
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Sep 24, 2014 14:15
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Reposting this 'cause I'm a dumb dumb These two episodes are probably my favourite ones in the whole revival. When I first started watching Who, I was liking it well enough, but it wasn't until Human Nature/Family of Blood that I really went holy loving poo poo Doctor Who and was on board forever. Just the combination of outlandish, abstract sci-fi concepts, extremely fun, hammy performances and genuine emotion with a story that just keeps topping itself with crazier and crazier poo poo, it's supremely entertaining. I've always had a soft spot for the exploration of these almost nostalgic ideas of what could have been if just the circumstances were different, and John Smith for me is the highlight of Tennant's run. The fawning Martha stuff would probably stand out more on a second viewing, because I don't remember it at all to be honest. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 14:24
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Android Blues posted:Re: Martha in Elizabethan England, there were actually plenty of black people around London in those times, many of them freemen who worked and owned businesses. They're just not often talked about in history classes and such because the way history is taught tends to focus on all white people, all the time. It's a very common and usually inaccurate historical peccadillo that people of colour past a certain century mark had either no role in European societies or were exclusively there as slaves. I've done a bit of research about this after you brought this up in the Roman History thread (if it wasn't you I"m sorry). But basically most public histories are readying this completely wrong. While there was a community of of black people in England at the time it does predate it's current racial ideas so a black person could be anyone from an Arab to someone from Sub-Saharan Africa. It wasn't till the 1650's that black people became a separate slave based group within the English Speaking world (earlier in Portuguese and Spanish) but not all black people where consider to be lesser then Europeans till the 18th century. It's honestly not researched that well but a black person in England in the 16th century would be looked on as curiosity by most people but without the later racial issues.
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Sep 24, 2014 15:08
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Rethinking this episode, I think a lot of what works for it is the execution. After a series of episodes with embarrassing CG and wacky "American" accents, a story that involves some character actors playing the roles that they're good at and leans more on their acting than on effects was an excellent choice.
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Sep 24, 2014 15:58
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Doctor Who "Human Nature" Series 3, Episode 8 I've groused in the past that, while Doctor Who might be varied as anything when it comes to content, the structure of each episode is often wearyingly routine: we have a setting that usually falls into one of three categories, "cramped, gloomy past," "CGI-soaked spaceship future," or, if we're unlucky, "basically just London;" we bump into an often-forgettable cast of ancillary characters while the camera occasionally pans at something OMINOUS in the background; and then we have a lot of running and shouting interspersed with often-unsuccessful attempts at witty banter. For a show with such potential, it's often frustrating that the run-and-shout model is used so often. I can understand the reasoning, sure - Doctor Who is a show for children and a slave to ratings like anything else, so sticking to a winning formula is just good business sense - but when the most striking deviation thus far from that formula is, Christ preserve us, "Love and Monsters," the more discerning, mature, probably acne-riddled viewer begins to feel a bit like a rat in a cage after a while. And yet it's partly because Who's so married to its routine that episodes like "Human Nature" land so well. Occupation noted that it already breaks tradition by happily explaining zilch to the audience until about twenty minutes in, sufficing for an action-packed cold open followed by a teeth-rattling change of pace to a quaint period drama about a slightly daffy young teacher finding romance in the shadow of World War I, aided, perhaps, by his put-upon but witty (for her upbringing, of course) maid-servant. The viewer's hooked by the similarities to the Who they knew, enough to distract them from the fact that all their favorite characters suddenly seem to have been hit by some kind of Downton Abbey ray, which lets the rest of the episode gradually get under their skin. The sudden change of format is an enormous success in large part due to the effort put into its production; "Human Nature" was shot in locales varying from a public history museum to a cathedral to an old manor (which is the only one of the buildings that ever actually served as a school), coalescing these places into a setting so reminiscent of old-school rock-ribbed academic that it brings a wistful tear to my eye. I loved Smith's study, in particular, though it did remind me how often I've wondered if professors actually read all those books in their offices. The rolling green hills and wide-pan camera shots are a far cry from the stuffy corridors and samey streets of previous episodes, which only sharpens the differences between "Human Nature" and typical Who. The camera work in this episode might be the series' best yet, and it's to everyone's benefit. And then there's the side-cast. An episode usually lives or dies by the performance of the Doctor and his Companion, but the side cast is what tends to differentiate a merely good episode from a great one. Paul Cornell already showed he's got a deft hand with minor characters in "Father's Day," and here, he really gets to strut his stuff. There's barely a wrong note in the entire wide range of performances here: Matron Redfern is played with hesitant, homespun charm by Jessica Hynes; the schoolboys come off as both snotty and tragically oblivious to the history bearing down on them; and Pip Torrens' dour performance of Headmaster Rocastle makes him come off as both a stern educator and a man too blinded by his love for king and country to have any idea what exactly he's training these kids for. Thomas Sangster's the only weak performance for me - the kid just cannot emote to save his life - but for the most part he only has to stand around and look timid and anxious, so it's not a deal-breaker by any means. That's not even getting into the villains. The Family (who are never given proper names, only their family appellations) all do a great job of portraying hostile aliens not quite comfortable in their stolen skins. Obviously there's Baines/Son of Mine, with his robotic movements, odd speech ("JUST SHUT UP STOP TALKING CEASE AND DESIST THERE'S A GOOD GIRL!"), frozen grin, and eyes that never blink holy crap man you should really blink it's going to raise comment, but Father of Mine seems to have trouble taking his hands off his gut when he's not otherwise occupied, Daughter of Mine is way too gruff for a child and never lets go of that balloon, and Mother of Mine is just unpleasantly weird, which is especially disturbing after Rebekah Staton's performance as Jenny. Her tearful pleas for an explanation in the Family's spaceship even got to me, and the way Son of Mine merrily hollows her out for his creepazoid mother makes the Family come off as more despicable than a hundred casual ray-gun disintegrations ever could. A lovely episode. Still, there are weak points, and I'm in consensus with Occ as to what they are. Doctor Who, especially the Davies era, has rotten luck with "minion" monsters, added villains to give the main baddies some extra muscle, and the scarecrows are no exception - their slouching, rustling walk is sort of unsettling, but mostly they're just too goofy to be taken seriously. And there's so many of them, Jesus, Son of Mine must have been a busy boy when he snatched Baines' body. The Family are already plenty intimidating with their high-tech weaponry, feral scenting abilities, and telepathy, so an army of scarecrows feels just a wee bit gratuitous. Still, at least they're not pig-men. And then there's Martha's scene. You know, That Scene. The less said about it the better. It's just so unnecessary, so easily ignored, that I wouldn't be at all surprised if Davies crowbarred it into the script in post. Occupation covered all the reasons it's so wrong, but what really makes it a bummer is that this two-parter is exactly what I think of whenever I think of Martha - she's a god damned professional who Gets Things Done. Here, let's compare Martha and Rose, since the show itself can't seem to shut up about the latter. Rose complained about being a lunch lady for two days, remember that? Martha successfully integrated as a segregated citizen for two months without a single untoward roll of the eye (that anyone could see), and kept an eye out for danger the whole time, evading the Family and nearly jogging Mr. Smith's memory before everything went to hell. Rose was either a hanger-on or a liability for over half her run. For nearly every one of Martha's episodes, the Doctor's success hinged on her assistance, the only exception I can think of so far being "Gridlock" (and even then her captor's skulls would've been ventilated if their gun hadn't been a prop). Martha's even-tempered, whip-smart, competent without being prideful; when there's a job that needs done, she knuckles the gently caress under and does it, and woe betide anyone who gets in her way, even if that person's currently wearing the Doctor's face. And that's the big draw of this episode, really - it's the Doctor, but it's not the Doctor. Like "The Impossible Planet" or "The Lazarus Experiment," "Human Nature" is an entirely different show altered by the Doctor's presence. But the former episodes were uplifted and given ultimately happier endings because of his interference, whereas here, he's an unknown, unwanted Other hammering on the door of what would have otherwise have been a picaresque little love story, bringing horror and destruction in his wake. That reversal's the most brilliant part of "Human Nature," and it comes to a head in the end, where the Doctor's pursuers turn what should've been the Big Kiss moment into a hostage situation with two dude-shaped piles of ashes already on the floor. The Doctor made this mess, and he'll have to clean it up - but in the meantime, we've got Martha, and she'll be more than enough no matter how many awful, awkward, lovesick dialogue gets forced down her throat. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 18:16
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I just read this whole thread this afternoon, I haven't kept current with Who and probably stopped with early Matt Smith but I really loved reading the reviews of the older episodes that I've seen, I like how you both write and I like watching you suffer, carry on.
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Sep 24, 2014 18:19
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Edit: wrong episode
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Sep 24, 2014 18:23
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Oxxidation posted:Matron Redfern is played with hesitant, homespun charm by Joan Redfern; I don't think she's actually called that.
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Sep 24, 2014 18:46
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Dabir posted:I don't think she's actually called that. I don't know what you're talking about and if you persist in this libel I shall take legal action, good day to you
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Sep 24, 2014 18:49
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He's commenting on the roles we play in every day life
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Sep 24, 2014 18:59
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This episode is an example of what I mean when I talk about how Martha has to help The Doctor as much as he helps her. Maybe with an exception of some really loopy Moff episodes, this season must have some of the longest and most prominent examples examples of The Doctor handing his fate over to the assistant. And the more ludicrous and loopy the stakes are, the less real Doctor Who feels. This scenario feels somewhat real, as sci-fi as the memory watch gimmick is, and as unexplained as the threat is. At least, it makes more sense than "you must take the TARDIS into the past and become a demigod" like season 1's capper. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 20:09
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BLINK BLINK AND YOU'RE DEAD
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Sep 25, 2014 00:12
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Woah wait What
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Sep 25, 2014 00:13
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Toxxupation posted:BLINK Yeah, that "Next Time" trailer grabs the attention, doesn't it?
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Sep 25, 2014 00:14
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Toxxupation posted:BLINK I was very confused, until I remembered... that's in the trailer, right?
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Sep 25, 2014 00:15
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I'll finally understand what makes the internet so obsessed with this goddamn thing for literally almost a decade real excited for whenever we get to that guys, like unironically
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Sep 25, 2014 00:16
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Toxxupation posted:I'll finally understand what makes the internet so obsessed with this goddamn thing for literally almost a decade Just don't blink or you'll miss it. The thing that makes the Internet really excited, I mean.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:19
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 Yay! Blinking! Edit: You know what, gently caress it, I'll wait until the review's up to post my dumb opinions. Adeline Weishaupt fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 25, 2014 |
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Sep 25, 2014 00:23
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Oh ok I forgot about previews
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Sep 25, 2014 00:25
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I'm pretty happy we've reached this block of episodes. Tennant's best three episodes in a row.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:30
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Toxxupation posted:I'll finally understand what makes the internet so obsessed with this goddamn thing for literally almost a decade Wait, have you watched "Family of Blood" already? Did the last review cover both parts of the two-parter?
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Sep 25, 2014 00:34
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Jurgan posted:Wait, have you watched "Family of Blood" already? Did the last review cover both parts of the two-parter? egon_beeblebrox posted:Yeah, that "Next Time" trailer grabs the attention, doesn't it? thexerox123 posted:I was very confused, until I remembered... that's in the trailer, right? Regy Rusty posted:Oh ok I forgot about previews
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Sep 25, 2014 00:37
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Jurgan posted:Wait, have you watched "Family of Blood" already? Did the last review cover both parts of the two-parter? His previous review just covered "Human Nature". He's probably referring to the "Next Time" teaser at the end of a different episode.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:38
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Zaggitz posted:I'm pretty happy we've reached this block of episodes. Tennant's best three episodes in a row. Maybe even the best three episode run in the history of the revival. Peaks and valleys this season man.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:39
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Watched a clip of "The Fury of the Time Lord" to pump myself up for this upcoming review.
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Sep 25, 2014 00:42
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