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Waffle!
Aug 6, 2004

I Feel Pretty!


My theory for Civil War - Captain America gets killed by Crossbones in Cap 3, and Bucky takes his place until Avengers 3 when Steve gets brought back to life from the Infinity Gauntlet or Dr. Strange.

The pieces are all there in Winter Soldier, with Bucky using the Captain's shield and Brock Rumlow surviving at the end. If they decide to go that way... it's a lot of story and characters to cram into one movie.

Spoilered in case no one's read it.

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3 A.M. Radio
Nov 5, 2003

Workin' too hard can give me
A heart attACK-ACK-ACK-ACK-ACK-ACK!
You oughtta' know by now...

computer parts posted:

4 are planned, two of which could easily feature cosmic stuff (Guardians 2 and Dr Strange).

The other two are Ant Man and Cap 3, the latter of which would be a stretch and the former I don't know anything about.

I could see Ant Man working into the Civil War storyline. Would also make sense if Wright left because he didn't want to work around it. That's just pure speculation on my part, though.

Pander
Oct 9, 2007

Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.



mr. stefan posted:

So, I don't want to make a huge spoiler here for those unfamiliar with the comics, but you do know that the Avengers straight up loving lose against Thanos in the comic storyline, right? Like, a flat-out, unambiguous curb-stomping.

(spoilers due to comix)

Yes. I know. That's my POINT. Building up the Avengers and GotG for a dozen movies only to have them curbstomped by Thanos would be an AWFUL bit of cinema unless they immediately make Thanos a lot more compelling than he has been portrayed so far in Avengers/GotG. Thanos only loses the gauntlet because of his hubris and Nebula's hatred of him. The latter half we were introduced to a bit in GotG, but the former would need to be brought forward to make the battle any worth.

I can only see a few possibilities how Marvel will handle Thanos.
1) Marvel weakens the stones so Thanos isn't a god, and can be defeated when GotG/Avengers learn the Power of Friendship
2) The good guys use the stones too to fight Thanos oh god it'd be so bad
3) Thanos is fleshed out at some point and made compelling

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!





Thing is, it doesn't make sense for MCU Iron Man to be pro-government. He's the tone who was in a congressional hearing and saying "No, it's mine, gently caress off." It made sense for comic book Iron Man because he'd just been Secretary of Defense not too long ago, but MCU Iron Man is too anti-government for that.

Boxman
Sep 27, 2004

Big fan of :frog:


jng2058 posted:

Thing is, it doesn't make sense for MCU Iron Man to be pro-government. He's the tone who was in a congressional hearing and saying "No, it's mine, gently caress off." It made sense for comic book Iron Man because he'd just been Secretary of Defense not too long ago, but MCU Iron Man is too anti-government for that.

A Tony Stark who just nearly brought about the extinction of humanity by accidentally inventing a malevolent AI may be a little more humble/in favor of oversight, though.

EDIT: They could just go with the futurist angle, too. Not that character motivations were terribly consistent in the comics, but I was a fan of whoever had Tony saying "Yeah, this sucks, but you know what the alternative is if we don't cooperate? They just make a bunch of Sentinels and hunt and kill us all." Tony's pragmatism and Steve's idealism was the most sane way to think about Civil War.

Boxman fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 24, 2014

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

YOU CAN TRUST ME!*


*Israeli Government-affiliated poster
The end of Iron Man 3 pretty clearly has Tony learning that his hubris and technology can be a danger to those he cares about. Ultron is specifically created because Stark believes that super heroes can't be trusted to defend the whole world.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


I would think that one of the few real values of the cinematic universe / 20 year plan is that they'd know going into Avengers 2 the sort of character development they'd want Tony to have. That he might change in reaction to what happens could be interesting.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

PostNouveau posted:

The speculation is that Captain America 3 will mostly be Civil War story, since Robert Downey Jr. has joined the cast. If they go that way, I guess Iron Man will be the main antagonist.

If it's Civil War then Cap can only be defeated by NASCAR and Myspace. If only he'd followed his list!

Davinci
Feb 21, 2013
Could someone please post a quick rundown/summary of this Civil War arc you guys keep talking about?

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

Davinci posted:

Could someone please post a quick rundown/summary of this Civil War arc you guys keep talking about?

An explosion-powered superhero lost control and exploded, killing a lot of civilians. Now the government wants to register supers, including their secret identity. Iron Man supports it while Captain America is against it. Iron Man and other heroes who support registration become government agents, Captain America and his supporters go underground. They fight a lot, some heroes got killed. In the end, Captain America surrendered to prevent more damage and deaths which leads to him getting assassinated with the whole world watching.

Spider-Man reveals his identity which lead to him selling his marriage to the devil later. The Hulk wasn't around because he was launched into space and is reenacting John Carter of Mars. Thor was supposedly dead at the time. The X-Men stayed out of the whole thing, except for Wolverine because he is everywhere.

The MSJ fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Oct 24, 2014

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008



The MSJ posted:

An explosion-powered superhero lost control and exploded, killing a lot of civilians. Now the government wants to register supers, including their secret identity. Iron Man supports it while Captain America is against it. Iron Man and other heroes who support registration become government agents, Captain America and his supporters go underground. They fight a lot, some heroes got killed. In the end, Captain America surrendered to prevent more damage and deaths which leads to him getting assassinated with the whole world watching.

The best part of it is when Punisher joins Captain America's group, sees that some villains are working with them, and then immediately guns them down while Captain America freaks right the gently caress out.

Davinci
Feb 21, 2013
That was an excellent summary. Thank you, it was much appreciated.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy

Davinci posted:

That was an excellent summary. Thank you, it was much appreciated.

It did kind of gloss over the fact that Civil War is not a good story.

But the basic idea is workable, so they'll probably make something of it.

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

Yeah, I did left out the part where Captain America is out of touch because he does not know about Myspace. Or that he surrendered because he looked at REAL HEROES like cops and firemen. And the part where Iron Man shoved everyone who opposes registration into a gulag in another dimension.

That Punisher thing is great, though.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
Or that the entire Superhero registration act is basically forgotten post event, since Steve dying apparently eases Tony's worries about uncontrolled super humans running around.Civil War has the same problem all recent Marvel crossovers had, in that is exists primarily to get the heroes to punch each other. As a result, a lot of interesting ideas and characterization tend to fall on the wayside.

However, it sounds a lot like the MCU Civil War will be something that is confined to Cap 3, without involving Hulk, Thor or any other hero, being primarily a conflict between Iron Man and Captain America, which makes a lot of sense, since those are the two most closely connected to real world authorities and on whom this act would have the most effect. If they actually included some of the metahumans mutants miracles gifted from AoS, if only as background, it could actually make for an interesting story without the clusterfuck it became in the comics.

BreakAtmo
May 16, 2009

e X posted:

Or that the entire Superhero registration act is basically forgotten post event, since Steve dying apparently eases Tony's worries about uncontrolled super humans running around.Civil War has the same problem all recent Marvel crossovers had, in that is exists primarily to get the heroes to punch each other. As a result, a lot of interesting ideas and characterization tend to fall on the wayside.

However, it sounds a lot like the MCU Civil War will be something that is confined to Cap 3, without involving Hulk, Thor or any other hero, being primarily a conflict between Iron Man and Captain America, which makes a lot of sense, since those are the two most closely connected to real world authorities and on whom this act would have the most effect. If they actually included some of the metahumans mutants miracles gifted from AoS, if only as background, it could actually make for an interesting story without the clusterfuck it became in the comics.

I dunno, the impression I got was that Cap 3 will begin Civil War, and then it will continue as the major arc of Phase 3. But we'll see. Even if the comic Civil War was bad, that doesn't mean the movies have to go the same way. Hell, I'd say they have a better chance since the filmmakers will enjoy the benefits of hindsight - they can look back at the comics and the fan reactions, evaluate them, see what worked and what didn't, and cherry-pick the best parts/approach good ideas in better ways.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!





The MSJ posted:

An explosion-powered superhero lost control and exploded, killing a lot of civilians. Now the government wants to register supers, including their secret identity. Iron Man supports it while Captain America is against it. Iron Man and other heroes who support registration become government agents, Captain America and his supporters go underground. They fight a lot, some heroes got killed. In the end, Captain America surrendered to prevent more damage and deaths which leads to him getting assassinated with the whole world watching.

Spider-Man reveals his identity which lead to him selling his marriage to the devil later. The Hulk wasn't around because he was launched into space and is reenacting John Carter of Mars. Thor was supposedly dead at the time. The X-Men stayed out of the whole thing, except for Wolverine because he is everywhere.

Technical point, I think it was a bomb powered villain that a team of heroes was chasing. They cornered him and he exploded, wiping out a town and killing all but one of the heroes.

Also this event was re-written and featured in a video game, Ultimate Alliance II. It's a indicator of how much the original sucked that the video game did it better. When your story is better written in the tie-in video game, you done hosed up, boy.

All that said, if Whedon's still around for Civil War, I expect he'll trim the silly bullshit and get to the core issues, which could be decent.

SALT CURES HAM
Jan 4, 2011
To be completely fair to Civil War, its biggest problem was inconsistency because too many writers worked on it in some capacity and none of them had a drat clue where it was going. The video game, meanwhile, was written well after the comic event was done and already had the finished story available to touch up into something decent.

BexGu
Jan 9, 2004

This fucking day....

jng2058 posted:

Technical point, I think it was a bomb powered villain that a team of heroes was chasing. They cornered him and he exploded, wiping out a town and killing all but one of the heroes.

Also this event was re-written and featured in a video game, Ultimate Alliance II. It's a indicator of how much the original sucked that the video game did it better. When your story is better written in the tie-in video game, you done hosed up, boy.

All that said, if Whedon's still around for Civil War, I expect he'll trim the silly bullshit and get to the core issues, which could be decent.

It gets even worse: A group of C-list heroes where chasing a bunch of on the run villains while filming a reality TV show. The villain (Nitro) blew up in the middle of a elementary school with the camera's rolling the whole time.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

SALT CURES HAM posted:

To be completely fair to Civil War, its biggest problem was inconsistency because too many writers worked on it in some capacity and none of them had a drat clue where it was going. The video game, meanwhile, was written well after the comic event was done and already had the finished story available to touch up into something decent.

Yeah, the fact that what exactly the Registration Act did changed from book to book was a real problem. Of course there was also the issue that Editorial just couldn't understand why the fans would side with Captain America and his crew when Reed Richards had stated that he was mathematically right, Tony was cyborg-cloning Thor to use as a weapon, Green Goblin lead a registration crew, and the extra dimensional prison for those who fought registration literally made you go crazy.

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008



Gyges posted:

Yeah, the fact that what exactly the Registration Act did changed from book to book was a real problem. Of course there was also the issue that Editorial just couldn't understand why the fans would side with Captain America and his crew when Reed Richards had stated that he was mathematically right, Tony was cyborg-cloning Thor to use as a weapon, Green Goblin lead a registration crew, and the extra dimensional prison for those who fought registration literally made you go crazy.

I don't agree with your last point. Tony was clearly meant to be the villain in that story and was portrayed as such. Cap' may have lost, but he did so in a way where he was trying to minimize damage to innocents caused by their slap fight, and in the end was eventually proven right.

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

This was the best Civil War cover. It even referenced Millar's Wanted.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

YOU CAN TRUST ME!*


*Israeli Government-affiliated poster

jng2058 posted:

All that said, if Whedon's still around for Civil War, I expect he'll trim the silly bullshit and get to the core issues, which could be decent.

Whedon is bowing out after Avengers 2. Marvel is supposedly trying to lock down the directors of Captain America 2 to do Avengers 3 and 4.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude

TheJoker138 posted:

I don't agree with your last point. Tony was clearly meant to be the villain in that story and was portrayed as such. Cap' may have lost, but he did so in a way where he was trying to minimize damage to innocents caused by their slap fight, and in the end was eventually proven right.

Yeah, that would have made way more sense, but the intention was to have Cap and co as the bad guys of the story.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

e X posted:

Yeah, that would have made way more sense, but the intention was to have Cap and co as the bad guys of the story.

Its Mark Millar and he is a bad writer.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

bobkatt013 posted:

Its Mark Millar and he is a bad writer.

Red Son is great, though.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

thexerox123 posted:

Red Son is great, though.

He had help from Grant Morrison on that one.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

bobkatt013 posted:

He had help from Grant Morrison on that one.

Well, he gave him the idea for the circular ending, but that's not even the best part of the story, compared to the crux of the climax.

Fulchrum
Apr 16, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Pander posted:

That is kind of what confuses me about going with an infinity gauntlet path. It's pretty obvious that they are. But I don't get how they could film the infinity gauntlet saga without devoting an unreasonable amount of time to Thanos and his backstory. GotG essentially sacrificed any real attempts at fleshing out the villains, which worked out well. Ronan, as shown, had the power to blow up a planet, and his only interest was blowing up a planet, and the GotG decided to stop him from blowing up a planet.

Thanos, if he gets the gauntlet, essentially becomes god, levels of magnitude beyond the heroes we've seen so far. The plucky band of upstart heroes doesn't really stand a chance against him unless they reduce the power/capabilities of the infinity gems greatly. They've spent so long building up the power of the gems, so that seems out. And they haven't really gone into Thanos' story much beyond "he's a pretty bad dude!" So I just don't see how they can sensibly film a saga that is ostensibly Cosmic Scarface.

That being said, nothing in their recent filmography has been bad, so they probably have a good idea in place.

Well, there was Iron Man 3 and Thor 2.....

If you introduce Lady Death as a concept and a character (again, in Doc Strange, and tie that in with the Soul Gem), you've pretty much got all you really need on Thanos. Why's he doing it? He wants to date death. Why'd he not just straight up kill them all? He wants to show off cause he thinks that'd impress her.

Alternatively, the mad titan assembles the heroes to toy with them, and his ego blinds him to how they will defeat him. He puts them all through the wringer expecting them to crack, and they overcome and turn the tables on him. Sort of like I Have No Mouth An I Must Scream, but way less nihilistic and terrifying. And ending with the heroic sacrifice and total erasure of Tony Stark, Thor and Steve Rogers, giving each a satisfying way out of the franchise.

Boxman posted:

A Tony Stark who just nearly brought about the extinction of humanity by accidentally inventing a malevolent AI may be a little more humble/in favor of oversight, though.

EDIT: They could just go with the futurist angle, too. Not that character motivations were terribly consistent in the comics, but I was a fan of whoever had Tony saying "Yeah, this sucks, but you know what the alternative is if we don't cooperate? They just make a bunch of Sentinels and hunt and kill us all." Tony's pragmatism and Steve's idealism was the most sane way to think about Civil War.

But here's the thing - what could the Civil war be over (and nobody say States Rights)? Each and every super working today in the movies timeline, minus some small time guys on Agents of Shield who will not be appearing in the movies, have their identities fully public (you could argue about Banner beforehand, but after New York, absolutely no way he's anonymous anymore). The war is over governments knowing the identities of people who want to be superheroes? They all already know it. Its over the government holding them accountable? They've got that too - supplementary materials said Tony paid for the repairs of New York. There's no conflict here.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Fulchrum posted:

But here's the thing - what could the Civil war be over (and nobody say States Rights)? Each and every super working today in the movies timeline, minus some small time guys on Agents of Shield who will not be appearing in the movies, have their identities fully public (you could argue about Banner beforehand, but after New York, absolutely no way he's anonymous anymore). The war is over governments knowing the identities of people who want to be superheroes? They all already know it. Its over the government holding them accountable? They've got that too - supplementary materials said Tony paid for the repairs of New York. There's no conflict here.

Since it's the start of an age of superheroes, why not make it about sorting out the rules now? When someone new appears with great powers, do they go to work for Stark Industries or SHIELD, or are they trusted to act on their own? Should there be any sort of registration and oversight of such people now that they're entering the public awareness and becoming an issue?

Use the Avengers themselves, and Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and Vision, as the crucible. Particularly with SHIELD's dissolution. Iron Man 2 already took a crack at the idea, why not expand on it?

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

e X posted:

However, it sounds a lot like the MCU Civil War will be something that is confined to Cap 3, without involving Hulk, Thor or any other hero, being primarily a conflict between Iron Man and Captain America, which makes a lot of sense, since those are the two most closely connected to real world authorities and on whom this act would have the most effect.

I actually have a hunch that if the MCU does indeed do Civil War, they'll flip the roles and have Cap be pro-authority (since he's ostensibly helping to rebuild SHIELD from the Hydra infiltration, and in the wake of Ultron he decides that all superhero activity needs to be closely monitored lest something get completely out of control again) and Stark be the "oh, gently caress that noise, I learned my lesson so get off my lawn" guy.

mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.

Timby posted:

I actually have a hunch that if the MCU does indeed do Civil War, they'll flip the roles and have Cap be pro-authority (since he's ostensibly helping to rebuild SHIELD from the Hydra infiltration, and in the wake of Ultron he decides that all superhero activity needs to be closely monitored lest something get completely out of control again) and Stark be the "oh, gently caress that noise, I learned my lesson so get off my lawn" guy.

I'm not sure how you can do anything like this after Cap 2, where Cap is the polar opposite of everything you say here. Why would he be helping to rebuild SHIELD? He was wary of them even before he found out most were Hydra.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

TheJoker138 posted:

I don't agree with your last point. Tony was clearly meant to be the villain in that story and was portrayed as such. Cap' may have lost, but he did so in a way where he was trying to minimize damage to innocents caused by their slap fight, and in the end was eventually proven right.

Interviews with Editorial at the time showed they clearly intended Cap's side to be the wrong party and Tony and Pals' Road To Hell Express to be correct. It didn't make any sense and had lots of people trying to figure out how the hell you have pro-reg do all that horrible stuff if you think they're both right and the good guys. If I remember correctly editorial was actually surprised at how many fans supported Cap.

Unless I'm completely misremembering everything. Maybe I gave Mephisto my correct memories of Marvel Editorial positions in exchange for a delicious sandwich.

Harime Nui
Apr 15, 2008

The New Insincerity

Gyges posted:

Interviews with Editorial at the time showed they clearly intended Cap's side to be the wrong party and Tony and Pals' Road To Hell Express to be correct. It didn't make any sense and had lots of people trying to figure out how the hell you have pro-reg do all that horrible stuff if you think they're both right and the good guys. If I remember correctly editorial was actually surprised at how many fans supported Cap.

Unless I'm completely misremembering everything. Maybe I gave Mephisto my correct memories of Marvel Editorial positions in exchange for a delicious sandwich.

I think a large part of it is the moment where Cap goes rogue is him basically flipping the bird to Maria Hill, a character who came in and replaced Nick Fury and spent several years poo poo-talking the Avengers, so a lot of fans really did not like her.

Buddington
Feb 20, 2010

Harime Nui posted:

I think a large part of it is the moment where Cap goes rogue is him basically flipping the bird to Maria Hill, a character who came in and replaced Nick Fury and spent several years poo poo-talking the Avengers, so a lot of fans really did not like her.

Outside of this, you'd have to be really Bush-years kool-aid out of touch like Millar was to think you could write a story about the Man implementing a law that has been demonized in the X-books forever and make Captain loving America the head of the "bad guys" and think that would go over with the fans. And then all your tie-in writers buck and make Tony literally Hitler.

Buddington fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Oct 25, 2014

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Harime Nui posted:

I think a large part of it is the moment where Cap goes rogue is him basically flipping the bird to Maria Hill, a character who came in and replaced Nick Fury and spent several years poo poo-talking the Avengers, so a lot of fans really did not like her.

Well, that and she had a strike team ready to go and ordered Captain America arrested because he suggested that the law was bad and that he'd wait until after it passed to decide what to do. Making it very, super clear that the law had yet to even be voted on in Congress.

Everything about Civil War was some insane fascist government reaction that for some reason everyone was supposed to accept because some kids were killed by a villain. Which of course everyone had to tie their tongues in knots trying to explain why this was so much worse than the last time Namor invaded or a Doombot was defeated by the combined Fantastic 4 and Avengers in the middle of Time Square. And yes, it was made all the worse because it was pretty much everything the X-Men had been fighting against since their inception. Which if I remember all the X books took time to point out while the remaining mutants told everyone to gently caress off.

Fulchrum
Apr 16, 2013

by R. Guyovich
I can see why people want them to include this storyline.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Fulchrum posted:

I can see why people want them to include this storyline.

The idea of Civil War is a good one, and at the beginning of the event is was mostly executed well.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

If they build it off based of the SMG reading of the Capt America and Iron Man relationship, it will probably be better than the comic book version.

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Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Can someone just link me to the fascist deconstruction already? All this discussion of the movie and its genre is boring.

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