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JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

Kanos posted:

This is basically every great 4x game ever made, though. You eventually reach a point where victory is inevitable except for the tedious and :effort: part of actually squashing the life out of your defeated opponents. The challenging and fun part is getting to that point.

Are there any 4X games with effective comeback mechanisms e.g. in Street Fighter IV where taking damage fills a revenge meter that unlocks a powerful Ultra move?

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Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


Donkringel posted:

Now we just need an lp where the person goes down fighting.

The Demon's posts in Lilli's LP is fairly good for that.


JosephWongKS posted:

Are there any 4X games with effective comeback mechanisms e.g. in Street Fighter IV where taking damage fills a revenge meter that unlocks a powerful Ultra move?

Civ5's Brave New World expansion was basically built around that, but i'm not sure i'd consider it a great success. At least they turned their attention to it.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

JosephWongKS posted:

Are there any 4X games with effective comeback mechanisms e.g. in Street Fighter IV where taking damage fills a revenge meter that unlocks a powerful Ultra move?

I can't think of any 4x games that really allow a vastly outmatched single player to really deal with a runaway juggernaut effectively. The closest thing in Civ would either be nukes or cultural warfare, the former requiring significant technological and industrial development and the latter requiring your opponent to not crush you before it starts working. Other games like Sword of the Stars give you the option of stuff like stealth bioweapons attacks or deploying weapons the opponent might not have effective countermeasures for, but that's not really reliable. It's a thorny problem, since the very nature of 4X games means that somebody who runs away with a ton of territory/resources/science/whatever generally has huge advantages that are too much to overcome without your own similar advantage, in which case it's not really a "comeback".

The standard 4X comeback mechanism is usually "convince everyone else to gang up and squash the runaway before he gets too strong for all of you to handle combined".

Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Oct 10, 2014

Magil Zeal
Nov 24, 2008

The problem is that including a "comeback" mechanism in a strategy game is, in a way, punishing the person for their effective planning and position by giving their weaker opponents an advantage.

I'd agree with the idea that the proper solution to a runaway is "talk to people and get them to gang up on the leader" but that can difficult to do from what I've seen, for some reason people will rarely agree to team up against the biggest power. I mean, in some ways it does make sense, at least up until the runaway runs them all over.

Neruz
Jul 23, 2012

A paragon of manliness

Magil Zeal posted:

The problem is that including a "comeback" mechanism in a strategy game is, in a way, punishing the person for their effective planning and position by giving their weaker opponents an advantage.

I'd agree with the idea that the proper solution to a runaway is "talk to people and get them to gang up on the leader" but that can difficult to do from what I've seen, for some reason people will rarely agree to team up against the biggest power. I mean, in some ways it does make sense, at least up until the runaway runs them all over.

Pretty much this, people would rather betray and backstab smaller weaker nations and buddy up to the large scary nation in the hopes of somehow catching up to the large scary nation (I actually don't know why people do this because it makes no sense to me at all.)


Basically many goons are two-faced bastards who will screw you over at the first opportunity, as a result deals more complicated than basic trades and NAPs almost never happen because everyone is so paranoid due to aforementioned two-faced bastardry. If this didn't happen then becoming the runaway nation would actually be a really good way to lose the game outright.

I'm told that teamwork was more of a thing back in Dom3 so I'm wondering if it's graphs that do it; being able to look at graphs and instantly see that one nation has twice as many provinces as anyone else makes teaming up against that nation a lot more attractive and also makes keeping an eye on 'allies' easy too since you can see if one of them manages to start pulling ahead before you do.

Neruz fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Oct 10, 2014

Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

Kanos posted:

I can't think of any 4x games that really allow a vastly outmatched single player to really deal with a runaway juggernaut effectively. The closest thing in Civ would either be nukes or cultural warfare, the former requiring significant technological and industrial development and the latter requiring your opponent to not crush you before it starts working. Other games like Sword of the Stars give you the option of stuff like stealth bioweapons attacks or deploying weapons the opponent might not have effective countermeasures for, but that's not really reliable. It's a thorny problem, since the very nature of 4X games means that somebody who runs away with a ton of territory/resources/science/whatever generally has huge advantages that are too much to overcome without your own similar advantage, in which case it's not really a "comeback".

The standard 4X comeback mechanism is usually "convince everyone else to gang up and squash the runaway before he gets too strong for all of you to handle combined".

The problem in Civ is that a runaway advantage tends to lead to well, more runaway advantages. Even in a Civ game where a friend did have a major tech lead, getting everyone in on it (basically) didn't lead to much of a victory. I mean, when I did finally get enough tech to roll in with battleships, a few nukes of my own, and destroyers, it did go well. But that was well after they could've won a science victory. It's only because they deliberately were screwing around that I managed to do anything.

Even nukes to equalise has problems, because the person with the runaway advantage gets them well, first.

I'd have to say that with SOTS's random tech thing, even stealth Bioweapons etc isn't always reliable. I recall with my LP of it, that it took 40+ turns to reverse engineer salvaged tech. During that time I was not getting new toys while the enemy DID have stealth Bioweapons. And Deflector shields.
And Heavy Cutting Beams.

And they eventually had twice my income. when you can barely manage 1-1 casualties on the defensive, defeat becomes only a matter of time.

Veloxyll fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Oct 10, 2014

Fat Samurai
Feb 16, 2011

To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

JosephWongKS posted:

Are there any 4X games with effective comeback mechanisms e.g. in Street Fighter IV where taking damage fills a revenge meter that unlocks a powerful Ultra move?

The Shogun series has a Realm Divide mechanic. Grow too powerful and everyone will pile on you, even long standing allies.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Kanos posted:

This is basically every great 4x game ever made, though. You eventually reach a point where victory is inevitable except for the tedious and :effort: part of actually squashing the life out of your defeated opponents. The challenging and fun part is getting to that point.

It doesn't have to be that way. For example, in Dom4, with all the adjustable winning conditions and the thrones, you can set it up to win when someone gets 5 or 6 of 10 thrones. That should avoid the last dozen of turns where is clear who is going to win but the game goes on until the end.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.
The problem with that approach is that it leads to people losing without having lost. IE, they feel like they were cheated out of a winning position because the game ended too early.

jBrereton
May 30, 2013
Grimey Drawer
Even 50%+1 is usually functionally identical to the old "kill everyone" condition, because of how thrones are distributed. Does mean you get more interesting blessed troops, a few different mages, and some new events, though.

Neruz
Jul 23, 2012

A paragon of manliness
Occasionally all the good thrones decide to hang out in one corner of the map and only the players who spawn next to the super throne cluster actually stand a chance of winning too, thrones help but it is by no means a complete solution.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Speleothing posted:

The problem with that approach is that it leads to people losing without having lost. IE, they feel like they were cheated out of a winning position because the game ended too early.

We have the granularity to control it exactly. 5 thrones, 6, 7, 8, etc. One of the settings has to be the equivalent of not too early (some player could still try to win with some crazy gambit), not too late (turns are worthless as everyone knows who is going to win).

Also, take in account that if people play with a lower throne winning count condition, the players should observe and fight for the thrones harder. It isn't like they are going to be playing normally doing plans at long term and the suddenly is going to receive a "game over" screen. If he isn't a noob, he will adapt his playstyle to the conditions established.


What about the other winning conditions? Number of provinces, dominion expansion, etc? Anyone have used them?

Samuel
Nov 5, 2011
Thrones are dumb, real gods ascend by murdering all pretenders. HIGHLANDER

feller
Jul 5, 2006


real victory is claimed in the arena

Archenteron
Nov 3, 2006

:marc:

Omelette du Fromage posted:

real victory is claimed in the arena

The old Dom3 endgame "There's (2-4) of us left, :effort: to total war each other to death, we each get 3 turns to Wish for SCs and artefact gear, then we wish for an arena fight, winner take all"

I won a game once as LA Atlantis (Surface spawning but completely amphibious) by getting blitzed by a neighbor, retreating all my cap-only mages and troops out of the capital right before it was sieged into the adjacent water, building a fort down there, using my only-recruitable-underwater troops and commanders to conquer the extensive river network of the map, and eventually enduring long enough to participate in the endgame Arena Deathmatch and took it.

Archenteron fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Oct 11, 2014

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves

Archenteron posted:

The old Dom3 endgame "There's (2-4) of us left, :effort: to total war each other to death, we each get 3 turns to Wish for SCs and artefact gear, then we wish for an arena fight, winner take all"

I won a game once as LA Atlantis (Surface spawning but completely amphibious) by getting blitzed by a neighbor, retreating all my cap-only mages and troops out of the capital right before it was sieged into the adjacent water, building a fort down there, using my only-recruitable-underwater troops and commanders to conquer the extensive river network of the map, and eventually enduring long enough to participate in the endgame Arena Deathmatch and took it.

The true champions are decided in a ultimate battle of the gods. Armies are for pussies.

Sure I'll send my giant mage tree to fight your 4 axe wielding monster, what can go wrong?

Mad Wack
Mar 27, 2008

"The faster you use your cooldowns, the faster you can use them again"
thanks for the cool lp

garth ferengi
Dec 20, 2009

Mad Wack posted:

thanks for the cool lp

erm. excuse me. no trolling, please

Teledahn
May 14, 2009

What is that bear doing there?


Thanks for all that lettuce you played for us?

Donkringel
Apr 22, 2008
I feel like there should be more.

Post more dominions. I don't care about quality. It can be buzzfeed quality.

"These girls were facing down an awe/fear combo dragon pretender! What these maenads did next will astound you!"

Morrreeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Thanks for showing off the endgame.

It really seems like the thrones contribute to the snowball effect a little more, since most of them end up with innate buffs and such.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

Glazius posted:

It really seems like the thrones contribute to the snowball effect a little more, since most of them end up with innate buffs and such.

And the ones that don't (usually negative scales or bad events), you just hold off on capping until the last moment.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011

garth ferengi posted:

erm. excuse me. no trolling, please
No troll, just read through it all in 2 dace and it was pretty baller. Kudos on actually finishing one too.

garth ferengi
Dec 20, 2009

here's your content, I've been sick and bored as gently caress all week so I started playing a little dwarf fortress and this is what I came up with for my housing level design



it looks a little less bad when it's on a larger scale at least I guess, sort of



I literally busted out graph paper and poo poo to make a design I could just repeat endlessly outwards, and I didn't even realise what it looked like until I looked at it in game

*sighs, puts on armband*

HiHo ChiRho
Oct 23, 2010

big smile

Magil Zeal
Nov 24, 2008

Then you breach a cavern and it ruins the whole aesthetic

Neruz
Jul 23, 2012

A paragon of manliness
I've always preferred 2x2 checkerboard housing myself because it's the maximum possible density while still having walls around bedrooms but that is a rather nice aesthetic design; the 3 wide corridors and the rotational symmetry are very appealing.

Tevery Best
Oct 11, 2013

Hewlo Furriend
My first thought was "loss edit".

Poil
Mar 17, 2007

Nevermind

Wales Grey
Jun 20, 2012
Does a spiral pattern offer a superior density vs. cross/tree pattern, or is it more a point of optimizing the length of the path?

e: try hexapodal towers

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ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010

:v:

Tevery Best posted:

My first thought was "loss edit".

Maybe step away from the Meme thread for a couple days.

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