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Floppychop posted:I know you can use rebel Y-wings in Scum as long as they have the correct inserts and cards. The question is, how many Y-wings could I fly using just the contents of a single Most Wanted box? With just a Most-Wanted box, you can only fly one Y-Wing, since there's only one model in the box. It does have the cards, base tokens, and dial to fly a second Y-Wing if provide the model from the Rebel Y-Wing expansion.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:13
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If you have extra Rebel Y-Wings, there is enough pilot cards and base tokens to run 3 scum Y-Wings. But they can't be three of the same generic pilots. I can't remember the distribution, but it comes with three bases, 2 with the named and a generic on opposite sides, and the third has both generic pilots on opposite sides. The most wanted pack also only comes with 2 each of the generic pilot cards.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:26
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I found a fun use for Kaato Leeachos ! You give him bodyguard ! I don't know if anyone has run this but he seems perfect for it. He and Serisou and something else (zs or hwk with recon) would be fun.
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Jun 1, 2015 07:08
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So a while back someone, I think it was Leperflesh, was sad about the fact that X-Wing operated on a fairly small scale (2-6 ships or thereabout per list) and so it wasn't really feasible to have like an entire fleet of YT-1300s or something. The other day while messing around with the squad builder app on my phone I was struck with a mad idea: Outer Rim Smuggler x3 -Anti Pursuit Lasers -Mercenary Copilot -Tactician It comes out to 99 points total. The idea is you use your three fatass low PS ships to get up to blocking shenanigans and force people to run up against your Anti Pursuit Lasers and then just vomit 2-dice turret attacks everywhere. The Mercenary Copilot and Tactician ensure that your junky ships get a bonus of some sort to look forward to at all three range bands.
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Jun 1, 2015 09:44
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I bought a Core set about a month ago and have been reading through this thread since then. I only just got all caught up! Restricting myself to $30 every two weeks for this dumb game that barely even gets played is turning out to be harder than I thought. Right now I'm at two core sets, Falcon, Slave I, X-Wing, and TIE Fighter. Is there a way to build the Falcon and Slave I so that they are a fairly even 1v1 match? My friend is only just starting out with this kind of game and I don't want her to get flustered by having to control 3+ ships at a time. Also I'm terrible and feel similarly. We just want to each use one ship until we get into the flow of things.
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Jun 1, 2015 23:18
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Paineopticon posted:I bought a Core set about a month ago and have been reading through this thread since then. I only just got all caught up! Restricting myself to $30 every two weeks for this dumb game that barely even gets played is turning out to be harder than I thought. Right now I'm at two core sets, Falcon, Slave I, X-Wing, and TIE Fighter. Is there a way to build the Falcon and Slave I so that they are a fairly even 1v1 match? My friend is only just starting out with this kind of game and I don't want her to get flustered by having to control 3+ ships at a time. Also I'm terrible and feel similarly. We just want to each use one ship until we get into the flow of things. If you're going to start out playing a similarly-matched new player, I actually recommend doing a mirror match. Falcon and Slave aren't really an even match for a small handful of reasons, but you have X-wings and TIE Fighters. I recommend you fly 1v1 X-wings, 2v2 TIE Fighters, and then X-wing vs TIE Fighters.
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Jun 2, 2015 00:18
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Cobbsprite posted:If you're going to start out playing a similarly-matched new player, I actually recommend doing a mirror match. Falcon and Slave aren't really an even match for a small handful of reasons, but you have X-wings and TIE Fighters. I recommend you fly 1v1 X-wings, 2v2 TIE Fighters, and then X-wing vs TIE Fighters. Yeah, I think this is pretty solid advice in terms of first games. A lot of my gaming group kind of got locked into the Rebels v. Empire mindset from the start, which has really kind of limited the development of both lists and how they're flying. I think favoring one faction over another in terms of purchases makes a lot of sense for some players, but not having ever played one faction or another can really skew how you learn to play.
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Jun 2, 2015 00:39
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Okay, this time I have some actual serious list discussion instead of dumb ideas. I found out there's another game store in my area that might actually have some X-Wing organized play going on and I'm curious to try out a tournament and see how I fare. The list I'm considering refining for tournament play is a Scum list that I've flown in some casual games and it's proven to be rather effective. Here's the current iteration I'm kicking around: Kavil -Veteran Instincts -Flechette Torpedoes -Blaster Turret -R4 Agromech Drea Renthal -Proton Torpedoes -Ion Cannon Turret -Munitions Failsafe -Unhinged Astromech -Palob Godahli -Opportunist -Blaster Turret -K4 Security Droid -Moldy Crow Up until now I've been running VI + Recon Spec on Palob but an article on Team Covenant pointed out that Opportunist syncs up really well with his inherent ability to strip focus and/or evade tokens, and the K4 is there to give him a little extra flourish when taking green maneuvers to clear the stress Opportunist adds. Kavil, like in most every list I include him, is the workhorse with the Blaster Turret + R4, doling out four-dice attacks with target lock like a metronome...not too flashy, but effective. The Flechette Torpedoes are simply to keep him from being crippled if he runs into a Munitions Failure crit. It hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't mean it can't. The one I'm a bit uncertain about in this mix is Drea. I feel like she's a bit unfocused...a torpedo, an ion turret, an Unhinged Astromech, she's got a bit of everything but doesn't really have a focus on any one thing. I'm wondering if it might almost be worth it to give her a third Blaster Turret. She can't make as good use out of it as Kavil, but her ability would let me keep slapping a target lock on whatever she's shooting at with it while the Unhinged Astromech lets her swoosh around clearing the stress, leaving her with a free action to keep focusing to pay the turret. On the other hand the Ion Turret has its uses, so maybe it's better to just stick with that.
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Jun 2, 2015 06:04
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The issue with palob, having both flown him and faced him, is that he goes down incredibly fast against any kind of focused fire (in my last tourney I was able to one-turn one with the equivalent of three b-wings worth of firepower). I do like the opportunist build but keep in mind that if you use it, the movements of him are going to be extremely predictable. Drea isn't actually that good with blaster turret, mostly because getting stress on a blaster turret y-wing is almost certain death against a skilled opponent. The reason for this is that the y-wing has a very limited number of green moves (1 and 2 straight only) and since you want the r4 agromech if you have a blaster turret, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to bump, preventing you from firing altogether unless you have something in front of you.
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Jun 2, 2015 07:44
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Tekopo posted:The issue with palob, having both flown him and faced him, is that he goes down incredibly fast against any kind of focused fire (in my last tourney I was able to one-turn one with the equivalent of three b-wings worth of firepower). I do like the opportunist build but keep in mind that if you use it, the movements of him are going to be extremely predictable. Drea isn't actually that good with blaster turret, mostly because getting stress on a blaster turret y-wing is almost certain death against a skilled opponent. The reason for this is that the y-wing has a very limited number of green moves (1 and 2 straight only) and since you want the r4 agromech if you have a blaster turret, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to bump, preventing you from firing altogether unless you have something in front of you. The thing about Drea, though, is that she doesn't need the R4 Agromech to maintain a target lock, she does that on her own. Once she has a target lock on someone she can perpetuate it at the cost of giving herself a stress, but with the Unhinged Astromech she opens up her green maneuvers considerably. An R4 on her would be redundant with her ability, at that point I'd be better off just taking a Hired Gun or Syndicate Thug. As for Palob, yeah, he's fairly fragile but in a way him being a target is sort of the point, every time I've brought him to the table it's caused my opponents to freak out about him and either go nuts gunning for him, which I can exploit by using him as bait to drag people through my Y-Wings' firing arcs, or simply refuse to use focus and evade at all...which I'm also okay with. The original build I had with him, with Recon Spec, has actually proven itself to be fairly resilient to a degree since having copious focus on hand to spend on even 2 dice defense rolls gives you a reasonable boost in staying power, so I could always swap out the K4 Droid for the Recon Spec.
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Jun 2, 2015 07:51
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You need a focus to fire the blaster turret, that's the issue. You can refresh that lock all you want but if you don't have the focus you won't be able to fire, which is the issue with the focus in the first place. So if you got for unhinged you won't be able to get that target lock to refresh in the first place and if you go for the r4 you get bumped like hell if you use your special ability. The problem I have is that you can only make people chase your HWK if you have an ability to use anything other than greens. You will want to be at range two with Palob and if you use opportunist his movements will be predictable. It just seems like a lot of points for something that will likely die quickly against anyone that knows how to prioritise targets.
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Jun 2, 2015 08:02
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Tekopo posted:You need a focus to fire the blaster turret, that's the issue. You can refresh that lock all you want but if you don't have the focus you won't be able to fire, which is the issue with the focus in the first place. So if you got for unhinged you won't be able to get that target lock to refresh in the first place and if you go for the r4 you get bumped like hell if you use your special ability. I'm not sure what it is I'm not communicating clearly here. 1). Drea uses an action to acquire a target lock, spends her attack lobbing a proton torpedo at someone, acquires a stress to perpetuate the target lock. 2). Drea then uses a green action to clear stress (her selection expanded by the Unhinged Astromech), then uses her action to focus. 3). Pay the focus to use Blaster Turret at the target she has locked, spend the lock to reroll, reacquire it with a stress. Repeat steps 2-3. Like, am I going crazy? Am I misremembering how clearing stress and using actions work here? Yeah, I know the Blaster Turret needs focus to fire, I've only used the thing in like a dozen games by now. My point is that Drea can keep a lock going without needing to lean on the R4 like Kavil does, and the stress she generates is an issue that can be ameliorated by giving her more better green actions to use, which in turn allows her to use actions to generate the focus needed to fire the drat thing while flying more than 1- or 2-straight each turn. And the upside is that when she uses her ability she doesn't need to reacquire the lock on the same target she spent it on which means she can shift targets around too. I'm not saying this is an unstoppable combo or anything, I haven't tried this configuration out yet, but the point you keep raising is one I already get and understand and doesn't seem particularly relevant to what I'm talking about here.
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Jun 2, 2015 08:44
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Okay, it was my misunderstanding of what you were attempting to do, so it's my bad. I'd probably drop the proton torpedoes though if you aren't planning to use the target lock when firing it, though.
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Jun 2, 2015 10:05
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Tekopo posted:Okay, it was my misunderstanding of what you were attempting to do, so it's my bad. I'd probably drop the proton torpedoes though if you aren't planning to use the target lock when firing it, though. Well this is sort of the gist of my conundrum, What Is Drea Best Used As? Her ability isn't overwhelming but it's solid, and it's flexible enough to find use in different contexts (torpedoes, turret shenanigans), and unlike Kavil she doesn't have one stand-out use flashing like a big neon sign going HEY IDIOT, USE THIS. Her drawbacks are she's PS5 and has no EPT slot, but she benefits from getting to use Salvaged Astromechs which is a decent tradeoff. Another Blaster Turret would be a bigger punch than an Ion Turret but would lack the "control" element of the latter. You can get up to some shenanigans with her and the R4-B11 astromech but it's kind of conditional and niche, and also stands to pile heaps of stress on her which, without an Unhinged Astromech, she's hard-pressed to clear. Her ability makes using torpedoes a lot nicer, but is it still worth using them? When Wave 7 comes out and Extra Munitions is on the table that might sway things towards running her as a torpedo platform, otherwise the protorp has generally come into play as a first shooting round "hey, catch" to be followed up on by ion spam. Re: Palob, another possible option is Torkil Mux. He's cheaper, no EPT but his ability triggers at the start of combat anyway, but I find his ability to be even more conditional than Palob's. I've read some reports from people who say that their local scene goes bonkers when Torkil hits the table, gunning for him like no other, but I think this is going to be something that's contextual on the local meta, for which I have no honest clue what it's like in my far-flung neck of the woods.
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Jun 2, 2015 10:21
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Yeah, I've been trying to play around with Drea as well. I think at some point I was just piling stress of on while using R4-B11 and not caring about clearing it, since I could just refresh the target lock anyway, no matter how much stress I had on her. She does alright in terms of action economy when she does that and her torps can be pretty mean, especially against enemies with a lot of green. I think she's in a weird place and yeah, it's hard to know what to do with her. I think Palob is an alright actually, I just wouldn't recommend loading up too many points on him because he's gonna go boom fairly quickly. Even with something simple he's a nice deterrent though and can screw up the action economy of your opponents. I think he has a better special ability than Torkil in terms of shaping the play of your opponents, so I'd always take him in comparison to Torkil, especially since he's only one point more.
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Jun 2, 2015 10:58
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It's good advice not to pile stuff onto ships that are fragile, and lord knows HWKs are, but the thing is, well, what else am I going to spend the points on? Kavil comes it at 33 points with VI, Blaster Turret, R4 Agromech, and Flechette Torpedoes which is really all he needs to smash face for an entire game. Drea, at the present moment, I have down with a Proton Torpedo, Ion Turret, Munitions Failsafe, and an Unhinged Astromech, also for 33 points. So that's 66 points. Palob (who I agree is generally the more broadly useful of the two Scum HWKs, local meta notwithstanding) costs 20. Give him a Blaster Turret, Moldy Crow Title, and a crew member (K4 or Recon Spec), and that puts him at 30. So 96 points. I could save some for an initiative bid, but Kavil's really the only high PS ship in the list, Palob and Drea are both PS5 so I'm not too fussed as far as initiative goes. I guess I could give Drea an Engine Upgrade if I stick with the Ion Turret instead of a Blaster Turret, or I could give her a second Proton Torpedo and try to leverage those a bit more. Otherwise I don't have much else to do to make the Y-Wings effective, Kavil's as kitted out as he needs to be and with Drea it's less a question of adding more so much as shuffling around what's already there. I could give Palob something less stress-producing like Predator I suppose. I was originally giving him VI for lack of better ideas but it never made a huge difference. I could even give him Lone Wolf, but that would require a degree of flight coordination and forward planning that I think exists beyond me for now, plus as you say he gets shot down pretty easily, so I like having him hang near other, tougher targets.
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Jun 2, 2015 11:12
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Kai Tave posted:Okay, this time I have some actual serious list discussion instead of dumb ideas. I found out there's another game store in my area that might actually have some X-Wing organized play going on and I'm curious to try out a tournament and see how I fare. The list I'm considering refining for tournament play is a Scum list that I've flown in some casual games and it's proven to be rather effective. Here's the current iteration I'm kicking around: You might consider using the BTL-A4 title on Drea, and keeping the Ion Cannon. Your opponent will likely be more worried about Palob and Kavil, so it shouldn't be too hard to keep a target in your forward arc, especially with the unhinged mech. Being able to take two attacks in a turn is really nice, even if the second attack is only doing a second damage. One thing to remember, you are not forced to attack the same target twice. So while using the first attack to potentially force the use of evade or focus tokens (which with Palob on the board may not be there), feel free to throw an ion target on something else that you want to have moving to a known location.
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Jun 2, 2015 11:14
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To be honest, VI and Flechettes aren't really all that necessary to making Kavil fly well, so I'd probably drop them. High PS on a Kavil with blaster/r4 agromech is one of those instances where having lower PS is actually better, since you can ensure that you get that all important focus: if y-wing could have system upgrades I would actually consider placing enhanced scopes on him. I'm usually a fan of squeezing as many ships as I can and even one extra Y-Wing can make the difference, so maybe something as lean as this list: 100 points PILOTS Syndicate Thug (23) x 2 Y-Wing (18), Ion Cannon Turret (5) Kavil (30) Y-Wing (24), Blaster Turret (4), R4 Agromech (2) Palob Godalhi (24) HWK-290 (20), Blaster Turret (4) Or if you are skeptical about being able to steal focus with Palob regularly and don't mind dropping a Y-Wing for something different: 100 points PILOTS Syndicate Thug (24) Y-Wing (18), Blaster Turret (4), R4 Agromech (2) Kavil (30) Y-Wing (24), Blaster Turret (4), R4 Agromech (2) Palob Godalhi (27) HWK-290 (20), Blaster Turret (4), Moldy Crow (3) N’Dru Suhlak (19) Z-95 Headhunter (17), Lone Wolf (2)
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Jun 2, 2015 11:21
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I pretty much only fly Kavil with Unhinged Astromech+PTL+EU+Blaster turret or AutoBlaster Turret.
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Jun 2, 2015 13:45
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enigmahfc posted:I pretty much only fly Kavil with Unhinged Astromech+PTL+EU+Blaster turret or AutoBlaster Turret.
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Jun 2, 2015 13:48
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Tekopo posted:Autoblaster is okay in that setup, but if you face high PS arc dodgers you can get into trouble. Blaster is a bit tricky since damage output is unreliable if you decide to actually boost. I rarely use AutoBlaster, but I might in a points crunch. I've found being able to boost with Kavil makes him so much more viable overall. Honestly, if you face high PS arc dodgers, nothing is really going to help Kavil, even with VI, but thankfully my area is pretty diverse and not just Interceptors and Netlisters.
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Jun 2, 2015 14:02
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The meta at my FLGS is kinda odd. Rebels are the most popular, with a smattering of scum, and only 1-2 imperial players. The Rebel lists seem to favor Falcons or B-Wing swarms. It makes some of the more creative scum lists viable, because there are so few green dice being rolled. I really need help flying N'Dru with lone wolf. I had him in with Palob, and 2xSyndicate Thugs (Ion, Unhinged, BTL). The first two games were against 2 ship lists, and I couldn't keep him far enough from my other ships, and still have a shot. The third game I was able to have him sweep in from the edge of the board and get behind his B-Wing swarm and start rolling 4 red dice. Do people have N'Dru hang back until the end of the round once stuff has been knocked off the board, or do they mix it up in the furball and hope he draws fire away from the main threats?
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Jun 2, 2015 16:07
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Tekopo posted:To be honest, VI and Flechettes aren't really all that necessary to making Kavil fly well, so I'd probably drop them. High PS on a Kavil with blaster/r4 agromech is one of those instances where having lower PS is actually better, since you can ensure that you get that all important focus: if y-wing could have system upgrades I would actually consider placing enhanced scopes on him. I'm usually a fan of squeezing as many ships as I can and even one extra Y-Wing can make the difference, so maybe something as lean as this list: Well I do have three Y-Wings... I admit Flechette Torpedoes on Kavil is simply there to absorb a Munitions Failure crit. It's never happened so far but every time he takes critical damage I keep waiting for it to crop up and ruin my day. Vet Instincts...it took me a little while to wrap my head around why a lower PS would be better for guaranteeing focus, I guess because nobody in my scene aggressively blocks much. I suppose in general I don't rely on the PS9 too much, though Phantoms with ACD make me a little nervous. Re: Palob and stealing focus/evade, I don't think I've ever stolen a single token with him in any game I've flown him, but that's sort of the point...as soon as he hits the table my opponents usually just write off focusing or evading until he's dead. In that regard I generally consider him points well spent since I'm okay with my opponent relying on nothing but target locks, especially ships that otherwise rely on evade to up their tankiness as I find the Y-Wings are well suited to a straight-up slugging match.
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Jun 2, 2015 19:43
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Trip report, I got in a couple games before board game night, the first of which was using the list I posted earlier with Kavil, Drea, and Palob + Opportunist. The opponent was flying Whisper, Soontir Fel, and Dark Curse. I usually try not to "one true way" at people, but I admit I felt compelled to offer some unsolicited advice when he revealed that Soontir was using Calculation and a Shield Upgrade but no Autothrusters. He also remarked to me that he was using Veteran Instincts on Whisper only after much urging as he wasn't sure what the fuss was all about. Whisper had ACD and a Sensor Jammer and Dark Curse had a Stealth Device. First round is just jockying for position, second round we start shooting. He had initiative so Whisper went before Kavil (tied at PS9) and started the usual Phantom shenanigans while Soontir Fel tore into Drea, but Drea landed an Ion Turret shot on him that stripped his shield and left him drifting. Next round when he went to decloak Whisper who was facing Kavil head on, it turned out he couldn't...asteroids on either side of him and Kavil just far enough in front that he'd overlap, leaving him no legal barrel roll or boost option. Instead he opted for a cloaked K-turn, which allowed me to put all three ships around Soontir Fel and wipe him from existence. By this point Drea was down to a single hull and so I looped her around some debris trying to get some distance and come back around later. Whisper was back in the fight now and so it was her against Kavil and Palob. I've talked before about dice luck and bad beats? So Kavil shoots back after taking some more damage, putting him at 4 hull, and whiffs it due to 4 green dice plus Sensor Jammer (as Kavil never has focus). The Palob goes. Whisper has no focus as she spent her last one defending against Kavil, so Opportunist gets to kick in. Palob rolls 4 red dice for his Blaster Turret and has a target lock on Whisper from wayyyyyyyy back at the start of the game that's gone unused. I roll 2 hits, a blank, and an eye. He modifies one hit to an eye, I reroll the blank with TL and get a hit...then spend a focus that Palob had banked ALSO from back at the start of the game courtesy of Moldy Crow. Four hits. He rolls four greens and gets three eyes and a blank. Whisper gets splashed by a HWK in a single shot. Except then I realized I had a serious problem. Dark Curse, when defending, prevents attackers from spending focus or rerolling dice. And both my remaining ships required focus to be spent to use their Blaster Turrets. Cue 30 straight minutes of some Yakkity Sax poo poo as I do my best to chase down a loving TIE Fighter with a Y-Wing and a HWK. Somehow, somehow I managed to drive the stake in him over the course of numerous exchanges as my dice were rolling so hot that even when I was laying out 2-dice shots with Kavil's front arc I was nailing double hits left and right, and Dark Curse died by inches. Thoughts: -Seriously folks, put some dang Autothrusters on your Interceptors. -This isn't the first game with this list where Drea's died early and without getting to make use of her torpedoes. I'm thinking I may try something different there. I'm not sure I want to do some four ship list where everyone's running bare minimum upgrades, but I need to reassess what I'm doing with Drea. -The Dark Curse thing came out of nowhere, I admit. Straight-up shut me down. If this had been a tournament it would have been called in my favor after time ran out I'm fairly certain (no way Drea costs more than a Soontir + Whisper kill tally), but it's still something to consider that lists leaning on Blaster Turrets are vulnerable to things that impede their ability to generate and/or use focus, so Ion Turrets are definitely still something that has a place.
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Jun 3, 2015 08:16
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One of the lists that I was running during tourneys/regionals was a list with Ten Numb + VI + Mangler Cannon. Him alone comes up to 36 points, which is quite a lot. I realised that although I was getting reliable damage output out of him, in the end he was just as survivable as a regular Blue Squadron B-Wing. Now, he did prove his worth in a couple of matches and I was glad to have him along, but for all his points, if my opponent was smart and targeted him first (not everyone did), he would die pretty easily. In the end, Kavil and Drea die just as easily as a scrub syndicate thug pilot and then you have have lost a third of your firepower rather than just a third. In terms of points that Drea you have in your list is worth almost 3 Zs and in the end, I would have much more utility and staying power out of those three Zs over her. And if you do go for the 3Z + Palob + Kavil, you still have a lot of points left over to bling out Kavil and Palob as well, along with being able to use the Zs to screen them and force bumps on enemies.
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Jun 3, 2015 09:57
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Tekopo posted:One of the lists that I was running during tourneys/regionals was a list with Ten Numb + VI + Mangler Cannon. Him alone comes up to 36 points, which is quite a lot. I realised that although I was getting reliable damage output out of him, in the end he was just as survivable as a regular Blue Squadron B-Wing. Now, he did prove his worth in a couple of matches and I was glad to have him along, but for all his points, if my opponent was smart and targeted him first (not everyone did), he would die pretty easily. Of course the issue with that is that Zs aren't precisely the most maneuverable of ships, lacking barrel roll or boost. I mean I get what you're saying, it's a valid point, but on the other hand neither Kavil nor Palob have really faced much in the way of serious threat themselves in the games I've played which is kind of weird, it's not like people at my store don't know what they can do and as you point out, Kavil is just as killable as any generic syndicate pilot, so how is it he's living to the end of every game while Drea bites it by round three most of the time? I mean, it's not like Kavil or Palob are flying rings around everyone, it's a Y and a HWK for god's sake. I dunno what it is, dumb luck or everyone here has poor target prioritization or what. It could also be that I'm flying Drea very poorly for some reason that I can't identify.
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Jun 3, 2015 10:21
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I guess some people have very poor target prioritization. Even in tourneys I had matches in which Ten Numb was not focused on at all and managed to survive until the end of the game. Maybe this was partially the way I flew him (when I run my 2 B, Ten Numb and Y list I tend to push my Y-Wing forward, making him a juicy target and tend to keep Ten Numb back since he can do damage event a range 3), but I did see situation where my enemy could have focused on him and instead went for a generic B or even the Y. But when you do face players that don't take baits you start getting into trouble. Also, Zs can be pretty effective even without movement options as long as you have enough of them. The bumping is pretty effective in of itself, especially against certain lists. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 12:08
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Kai Tave posted:Of course the issue with that is that Zs aren't precisely the most maneuverable of ships, lacking barrel roll or boost. Having started this game by immediately spoiling myself on Soontir Fel and Phantoms and whatnot, I fell in this trap too. Z's are so worth the points its not even funny, you just have to use them right. Sure a lone Z is harder to use (so many people netlisting BBBBZ right now and just letting the Z get torched pointlessly) but can still be an effective thorn. Mostly they shine in mini-swarms where they can really get in an opponent's way, especially one who's written them off as slow and lacking post-movement options. That 2 attack suddenly becomes relevant when you have three Z's at range 1, (or even just 2 of them, using the third to block). Range 1 "impossible" to get? Then you've successfully herded your opponent where you want them to go, into your aces' firing arcs. The key thing is you're throwing lots of individual attacks. By this point your high PS ships have stripped your target of focus/evade and just 3 sets of 2 red can chip away ~2-3 hp from most ships, which is more than just a thorn, and can weirdly be more reliable than, say, a single HLC shot because you're spreading out chances of failure. The counter argument is "but my opponent keeps throwing 4 green dice and the Z's can never catch up!" and the answer is usually that your dudes are too far apart. You never have go to your opponent and a high-PS arc dodger is always going to come to you. Use your slow Z-swarm like a rock in the stream that forces him to go left or right of it at some point. Keep your faster aces dancing but the Z's conservative enough (range 3+) until Soontir or what have you commits in a direction and you just turn to face. If you can get them to k-turn, they're dead. Otherwise it comes down to how well you manage the chase. I guess it sorta comes down to knowing who you can block and who you can herd. Man I'm really interested in how Palpatine shakes things up.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:17
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Dude above gets it. Zs are really cool and good in a mini swarm precisely because of how slow they go. Tie swarms did the same thing initially - they would approach slowly then pounce with their ridiculously fast straights and banks. Zs do the same thing except they can focus or TL while they go slow while ties are forced to barrel roll backwards. They can't do the really fast straights but they don't need those. The only thing ties have over them is choice of k-turn. I think pulp is going to make the Baron + decimator list an even more entrenched list. Phantom just doesn't have the points for it and usually loses the bidding war anyway. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 18:31
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I've developed my whole playstyle around outmaneuvering my opponents, either dodging their arcs or getting local superiority and shutting them down one by one. I don't have experience with the playstyle of "herding" my opponent where I want them to go. I might try throwing a Falcon and three Zs to practice, but the more I read about it, the more it sounds like it takes an entirely different mentality.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:51
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Before I knew the name of Fat Han and how it was an established archetype online, I called it Mama Han protecting her chicks. So there's a fair bit of herding on your side and theirs.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:54
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Running a mini-swarm of cheap Headhunters sounds like it requires a degree of foresight into the opponent's movement plans that while I can kinda sorta achieve some of the time I don't know if I could pull off reliably enough to have them wind up where I need to be, especially since they all have to move before everyone else does and I'm trying to block them off.
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Jun 3, 2015 19:02
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Well that's why you have a mini swarm: cover as many possible approaches as possible. And practice makes perfect when it comes to xwing. Which is why I should practice more with pure swarm lists.
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Jun 3, 2015 19:07
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If it helps, I started this game playing XXYY, then ABXY with A flanking, then several iterations of nX+mB usually with Biggs before the Zs came out. You really get to appreciate formation flying and different types of formations (pinwheel is still my fave).
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Jun 3, 2015 19:17
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Chill la Chill posted:I started this game playing XXYY, then ABXY ... then several iterations of nX+mB ... This just turned into either alphabet soup or algebra.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:41
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I use the pin wheel for my ten numb bby list, swing in with a bank with the y as my point man and ten numb in the rear. Works well.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:44
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Chill la Chill posted:I think pulp is going to make the Baron + decimator list an even more entrenched list. Phantom just doesn't have the points for it and usually loses the bidding war anyway. The thing is the Deci + Fel build is almost always running all three crew slots already. Pick three of: Vader, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Isard, Moff. Being able to only pick one of those plus the Emperor is actually a really hard choice.
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Jun 3, 2015 22:51
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The Gate posted:The thing is the Deci + Fel build is almost always running all three crew slots already. Pick three of: Vader, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Isard, Moff. Being able to only pick one of those plus the Emperor is actually a really hard choice. Emperor and Moff Jerjerodd. Push Palpy out the airlock to soak up crithits!
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Jun 3, 2015 23:39
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Someone please explain this pinwheel thing to me.
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Jun 3, 2015 23:45
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The Gate posted:The thing is the Deci + Fel build is almost always running all three crew slots already. Pick three of: Vader, Gunner, Rebel Captive, Isard, Moff. Being able to only pick one of those plus the Emperor is actually a really hard choice. You could always just run an Lambda shuttle with the emperor instead of Soontir. Would even have enough points for a HLC on the shuttle.
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Jun 3, 2015 23:58
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