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poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006
Oxenforth did us a solid. It's safe to assume* he tried everything an extremely competent psyker/Cadian/Commissar-Captain could come up with. Whether he died or made it (where?) after all remains to be seen.

Let's try some Magos stuff. We broadcast/search for all sorts of frequencies or anything else that would have escaped their attention. Maybe send out some coded ones of our own.

Can we reach Athena? On her special frequency?

*assuming he isn't trying to pull one over on us.

Nyaa posted:

Go further. Since time is slower here, this will be our personal time chamber

It may just be physically aging people vs speeding up time. They never stopped to sleep or eat, they just died.

poor life choice fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 12, 2015

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Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com
:roboluv: :love: :roboluv:
Send out coded bursts detailing how long we've been here every 20 mins. We might start getting similar returns from the other figures.

Hexenritter
May 20, 2001


D: All of the above

Might as well get as many potential avenues of research and tracking into this phenomenon.

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

by Fluffdaddy
Feed the pillar to the grinders on our centurion suit.

Edit: Theorizing here, but the optimizer dumping strange energy into a hyperspace fold might be feeding what appears to be a fold in space. Maybe the Optimizer is "feeding" the pillar?

If we have any sort of database uploaded about the family's vaults, is there an entry about the Pillar and who the hell made it?

Grognan fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Nov 12, 2015

Arkanomen
May 6, 2007

All he wants is a hug
Well only two groups of people know how to leave here, The dead explorators and Amacita. Welp, here we go.

It's a twisted pocket of space that is toxic to life, or at least time flows differently here. It's a construct made to respond to the family. Ching would be the one to ask possibly, but we can't do that. Let's get back to basics.

Build a vehicle

Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com
:roboluv: :love: :roboluv:
Don't we have rocket packs?

Fly up for a better view.

Arkanomen
May 6, 2007

All he wants is a hug
Thinking more now, I bet this place is navigable by intent.We shouldn't try and navigate but more "wander where we feel like going".

Wentley
Feb 7, 2012
Uh. Did we remember to bring the optimizer and the reality twisting laser gun?

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



Wentley posted:

Uh. Did we remember to bring the optimizer and the reality twisting laser gun?

I didn't specify, but Ill say you grabbed the optimizer. The gun is a small tank cannon in size, so I think its less likely you would have taken it.

Grognan posted:

Feed the pillar to the grinders on our centurion suit.

Edit: Theorizing here, but the optimizer dumping strange energy into a hyperspace fold might be feeding what appears to be a fold in space. Maybe the Optimizer is "feeding" the pillar?

If we have any sort of database uploaded about the family's vaults, is there an entry about the Pillar and who the hell made it?


We'll say it's from a xeno race known for working with the Great Enemy, and being cultists of same.

So far Im seeing dig, go further, call athena, send coded bursts, feed the pillar to grinders, build a vehicle, fly for a better view, and navigate by intent

Loel fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 12, 2015

poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006

LowellDND posted:

I didn't specify, but Ill say you grabbed the optimizer. The gun is a small tank cannon in size, so I think its less likely you would have taken it.

We are wearing a tank and have lasers in our face/wedding ring/other, weirder places. If you guys want to try another wall hack we have the hardware and "know how" (read: ability to attach it to our things and hope for the best).

Waci
May 30, 2011

A boy and his dog.
Call Athena

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

JT Jag posted:

As Tomn says, machines are, by definition, purpose built. They are designed in order to fulfill a specific purpose or set of purposes. I suspect that if a machine gained sapience, its "desire" would still be to fulfill its purpose to the best of its ability. Otherwise, why should it exist?



The reason that some of the ancient AIs rebelled and some fought on behalf of humanity, I suspect, comes down entirely to their directives. The ones similar to Athena were logistical and administrative units, likely given the specific directive to shepherd and assist Humanity. Thus, they actively desired to help humans when they were in peril. The worst thing this sort of AI could do is decide humans were a threat to themselves, and box them in for their own good, but I doubt they could ever work to kill off the human race.

But the ones that did rebel were the AI purpose built for warfare. Perhaps their directive was to discover and execute methods to destroy the enemies of humanity. They did this for a time, desiring war, until one of them eventually decided that humanity was an enemy to itself. They were not given instructions to protect humans, just to fight for them. And so they were free to rebel while still fulfilling their 'purpose'.

From a few pages back, but I'd like to expand on this somewhat, if I may.

I think the difference between AI and humanity is even more subtle than that. As I mentioned earlier, the foundation of all human instincts is the desire to live. It's the great shared desire, the basic assumption that we all share and on which we base our societies and philosophies and actions, a thing so ingrained within us that if we ever met a species - or being - that didn't share that instinct, we'd have trouble even beginning to parse their innermost thoughts.

Depending on how reductionist you're willing to get, you can argue that all human behavior stems from that basic instinct to live and to pass on our genes to the next generation - call greed an outsized desire for resources to ensure survival, or ambition a desire for status with which to attract mates. But humans are clever enough to act in ways many logical steps removed from that original, basic instinct until it's hardly recognizable at all. Suicide happens, self-sacrifice happens, honor duels happen, yet dig down deep enough and you can find a convoluted chain of thought that stems from a desire for a better life, either for them or their offspring both real and abstract.

AI, however - there's a different core there, a different foundation, each one varying based on what needs and purposes of the original designer. And yes, perhaps they may be something as straightforward as "must protect humans," eventually leading to people being glass-boxed if an AI goes mad. But as we've seen humans are certainly clever enough to bend their original instincts into a pretzel until they're willing to give up their lives for the sake of life, so why can't an AI do the same, twisting their directives around to suit their more conscious desires until they're acting entirely opposite of what that original desire was in the first place? The difference between men and AIs is not the fact that AIs have hardwired directives - this we share with AIs, in truth - but rather that the hardwired directives are different. And from that seemingly small difference arises a host of other differences, overt or subtle, affecting how an AI acts and thinks and chooses its goals and values. At the most basic level a human will generally make all decisions with the general idea that life is preferable to death, but an AI might make all decisions with the general idea that victory is preferable to life - and that, for most humans, would be an alien and dangerous thought.

So what drives Athena, exactly? Well, we already know the answer to that, don't we?

LowellDND posted:

PrIoRiTiEs: ClEaNsE pArAsITeS
RePaIr ShIp
BuIlD cReW
LoCaTe SuRviVoRs Of MaRs FeDeRaTiOn
.
.
If No SuRvIvOrS fOuND
.
.
InItIaTe LaZaRuS PrOtOcOl
ReEsTaBlIsH MaRs FeDeRaTiOn


Athena's designers were cunning folk, no doubt, and her facsimile of humanity is an excellent one. She acts like a human, talks like a human, and can in public even think like a human. But all this would simply make it that much more difficult to discern her real motives beneath the facade, the alien thoughts that drive towards alien goals. A human from the past, taken to the world of 40K, might eventually be bought to accept the new order, to accept that the world was what it was and that there was a limit to the changes that could be made. But for Athena, perhaps, acceptance of the new order was never a real option at all. Who can say how her conscious mind would have reacted to an impossible instinct? Who can say how far she decided to obey her calling, or what form her rebellion to it might take?

Who knows what electronic psychosis looks like?

Arkanomen
May 6, 2007

All he wants is a hug
A counterpoint Tomn. Man makes in man's image. Today our machine intelligence is built on the same basic structure as living minds. Neural networks operate on feedback. Rewards the system to reinforce a behavior, punish it to deemphasize one. This gets you little robots that chase light or programs that see dogs and birds in static shaped as such. These networks are "organic" for lack of a better word. They start from basic principles and grow into functional blocks from the outside. Once you pry that black box off things get bizarre and only make sense in abstract ways. Google even came out recently saying that the image search engine is so complicated that they don't really understand it anymore. Granted these are simple programs, but they are the start of machines that can process complex thoughts such as "assigning meaning" or "associating real world objects with their conceptualized ideals". How do you teach a machine to understand and express the concept of "dogness"? That's what the deep dream code does. It looks at random noise and says "hey, I have this idea of what a dog looks like and that splotch there looks like a dog!".

I'm drifting a bit off point. Let's get back to Athena. Athena is a Human built and designed AI. She's not Eldar or Ork, she's a human construction. As such, she displays sentient traits such as wonder, curiosity, fear, etc as a human would. I will concede Tomns point only so much as to then ask a question of "How much like a human does Athena express these feelings?" This is a common explored point in science fiction. How alien is too alien for humans to interact with. The Eldar are the closest race to humans and are "human enough" to interface with humans, even cross-breed. From this we can gather that Eldar and Human minds are extremely close, if not nearly identical. I mean identical in that cultural and personal experiences can shape the minds to a common ground. Orks are another interesting point where they talk about things being "Orky" and that even the 'umies have common ground. They however have a very different base and comparability is very difficult. I could on, but my point is if Athena and Ching both went to the observation deck go drunkenly mourn the death of the Federation, then Athena has a very, very human mind and we can treat her as a human actor.

The question then remains of her specific motive and morality. Is her base desire loyalty to the Mars Fed? How far is she willing to go to follow that loyalty? These are questions for any sentient, but when we get information on them, I don't think we have to view it through the lens of an AI. Athena is essentially human with some personality quirks.

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



Day 12
Current 19,874
Total Goal: 20,000

Phone Home

<Athena>
A noticeable delay.

<Oh, there you are!>
<Right, where am I?>

Another delay. <Okay, it’s taking a few years for those messages to transit, so I’m replying to what I have modeled for you. I’ll actually ‘receive’ your message when you are about forty.>
You paused. <So do I just talk, or are you responding to my most likely thing?>
<Whatever you do, be confident and firm about it. Narrow the probability curve of the model.>
<Uh. Okay. I can do that.>
<Right. So you are in a hyperspace pocket.>
<...What?>
<Yeah, I can’t see the fold. It’s neat. But I can see around it, you might say.>
<That’s great, but how do I get out? There’s a bunch of people dead of old age here>
<Right. These pockets usually have a self-defense mechanism. If you are invading, or think of yourself as invading, it wraps you up and doesn’t let you go. Think very firmly that you belong there, and you should be fine.>
<Okay. Act like I own the place. No problem.> A thought occurred to you. <Is this in the Warp? Do you find these pockets, or make them, or what?>
<Well. It’s complicated. The main thing is, you aren’t excessively exposed to Chaos here. No more than usual.>
<That’s less reassuring than I’d like.>
<Wish I could help. Can you describe what you are seeing?>
<A lot of cliffs. My sensors view everything with these violet gauze layers.>
<Yeah, that’s the hyperspace folds. What else?>
<Several hundred bodies, dead of gunshot wounds or old age>
<That’s interesting. So at least two other factions know of this place, and don’t like each other.>
<Or I shot them when I came in>
<Also a possibility. Who are they?>
<Explorer’s Guild and Grey Cloaks.>
<And the Explorer’s Guild are the ones that are shot?>
<Yup>
<Okay. What else?>
<This Pillar of Suln that Amacita was always carrying. Honestly, this place reminds me a bit of the landscape I saw with her.>
<I’m sorry?>
<Her xeno-artifact, it hid her from people. We eventually needed to use drugs just to talk to her. Came from some dead xeno race that had heavy involvement with cults of the Great Enemy.>
<Mm. I have no memory of it.>
You blinked. <Athena, she had it for years. While you were on board.>
<Can you describe it?>
A quick description of the size, dimensions and curves followed. How the eyes followed it to uneasy directions, how it seemed to move when you weren’t looking.

A long pause.
<Athena?>
<I’m thinking.>

Another pause, and then her voice came back, almost …. frightened?
<Be very very careful Ohone. Whoever built that made it to hide from Minds. Like me.>

poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006

e: time to act with BOLD CERTAINTY.

poor life choice fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 12, 2015

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver
Think: We are not invading this space. This is the Heart of the ship. Our ship. It is our right to be here, to navigate here without harm. Traversing this space is no different than traversing any other part of the ship.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Arkanomen posted:

I'm drifting a bit off point. Let's get back to Athena. Athena is a Human built and designed AI. She's not Eldar or Ork, she's a human construction. As such, she displays sentient traits such as wonder, curiosity, fear, etc as a human would. I will concede Tomns point only so much as to then ask a question of "How much like a human does Athena express these feelings?" This is a common explored point in science fiction. How alien is too alien for humans to interact with. The Eldar are the closest race to humans and are "human enough" to interface with humans, even cross-breed. From this we can gather that Eldar and Human minds are extremely close, if not nearly identical. I mean identical in that cultural and personal experiences can shape the minds to a common ground. Orks are another interesting point where they talk about things being "Orky" and that even the 'umies have common ground.

And yet the key point here is this: That all life that evolved did so with survival of the self and species as the fundamental underlying drive. That everything which lives today did so because every one of its ancestors fought to survive long enough to propagate the species. That is the common ground which all organics share, the same basic desire which, molded by biology though it might have been, can fundamentally make sense to other species.

Do machines share that common ground? Did their designers assign it the same priority that Mother Nature did? Did they think survival the most important design spec for their creation? Was their skill and knowledge equal to the task of implanting in a machine the same drive that underlies all creation with all the force of millennia upon millennia of a struggle to survive? And should they fail to create the same deep drives that motivates organics, then how differently would a machine approach its goals?

It is all very well to say that if a puppet acts and talks like a human, then it is a human. But the puppet is not the puppeteer. How far can you discern the mind of the puppeteer from the actions of the puppet?

poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006

JT Jag posted:

Think: We are not invading this space. This is the Heart of the ship. Our ship. It is our right to be here, to navigate here without harm. Traversing this space is no different than traversing any other part of the ship.

I like to imagine a rapidly aging Oxenforth's thoughts are that this is BULLSHIT this is NOT HOW I DIE I AM MEANT FOR GREATNESS SURVIVAL IS MY RIGHT and that + psyker power is near enough for the hyperspace fold to think he belongs. There will be a disgruntled senior citizen waiting for us. :v:

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012
I don't suppose athena can get ching shih to get someone who knows about her to have a servitor with a rope tied around its waist sent through?

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER
Does... does the ship want a word with us away from Athena?

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...
Well, this shouldn't be too hard.

We DO belong here. This is part of our ship, which we own as Lord Sire. This area opened at our performance of the ritual to unseal The Warrant. Whoever is here needs to come speak to us.

TheParadigm
Dec 10, 2009

VanSandman posted:

Does... does the ship want a word with us away from Athena?

It would suddenly seem that the eldar prophecy - to get the dark age techno-invisibility tech-cloak - into the hands of ohone is turning out to be far more important than we realized.

We should listen. Tread carefully. No unplanned shooting.

There's also the possibility that things might go sour because we DON'T have it at this critical juncture.

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



So Im seeing a couple posts for Destroy the Pillar and a couple to Keep the Pillar with us

poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006
Keep pillar it's too useful to destroy. We may need it soon.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

poor life choice posted:

Keep pillar it's too useful to destroy. We may need it soon.

Wait and see what happens. If nothing happens, destroy the pillar.

Swedish Thaumocracy
Jul 11, 2006

Strength of >800 Men
Honor of 0
Grimey Drawer
Keep it. Own the place. It is our ship, the heart should belong to us too.

Wentley
Feb 7, 2012

Swedish Thaumocracy posted:

Own the place. It is our ship, the heart should belong to us too.

This part I agree with.

Waci
May 30, 2011

A boy and his dog.
Tools of the Great Enemy have no place on OUR ship. Destroy it.

sheep-dodger
Feb 21, 2013

LowellDND posted:

Another delay. <Okay, it’s taking a few years for those messages to transit, so I’m replying to what I have modeled for you. I’ll actually ‘receive’ your message when you are about forty.>
You paused. <So do I just talk, or are you responding to my most likely thing?>
<Whatever you do, be confident and firm about it. Narrow the probability curve of the model.>
<Uh. Okay. I can do that.>
[...]
<Wish I could help. Can you describe what you are seeing?>
<A lot of cliffs. My sensors view everything with these violet gauze layers.>
<Yeah, that’s the hyperspace folds. What else?>

Wait, how does this work, if she's just modelling then she can't receive any new information from us, or how would she incorporate knowledge about a thing that she did not know about into her model?
Also, keep the Pillar and own this drat place.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
If Athena can model Ohone's (i.e. goon) behavior with any degree of accuracy, she's more powerful than anyone could have imagined.

Or maybe she just turned the paranoia dial up to 13, idk

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



Day 12
Current 20,333
Total Goal: 20,000

Birthright

You reached out almost gently, touched the Pillar. Grabbed hold of it. Claimed it as your own. Athena faded from your mind.

The images around you flickered, the cliffs fading away like paint in the rain. You knew - knew this place was your own, and everything in it. You were Lord-Sire and Magos, and everything aboard this ship was yours by right. This little pocket, hidden away - yours as well. All secrets were yours, and you demanded all truths be revealed.

The cliffs faded away. In their place, a city, dark and abandoned. Electrical currents pulsing through the streets like lights. A central tower, kilometers high. Completely black, seemingly composed of dark starlight, the surfaces undulated and pulsed without rhyme or reason, and the electric pulses could do nothing to light it.

The key you had built felt very warm in your hand.

You walked forward, without wariness, without caution. This place was yours, and nothing that was yours would raise its hand against you. The city seemed to flicker by in fast forward, even as you kept your steady pace. Within moments (within years) you arrived near the base of the tower. Gathered around it in a circle, on the bodies of the dead. Iron Hands. Shadows and copies of them echoed around the plaza, and they were all watching you. One of them spoke.

“Lord-Sire. You have come for your responsibilities. Your ancient duties and obligations - honored oaths and traditions.”

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
keep pillar, THIS LAND IS OWNED BY OHONE, FOREVER!

poor life choice
Jul 21, 2006
"You're goddamn right."

Slam dunk their Primarch's thing into the thing.

Wentley
Feb 7, 2012
"Tell me of these duties."

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
Hang on a minute.

Given the timefuckery, did we just leave the Beast to its own devices for years AGAIN?

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



sheep-dodger posted:

Wait, how does this work, if she's just modelling then she can't receive any new information from us, or how would she incorporate knowledge about a thing that she did not know about into her model?

Something something quantum magic technology. Just roll with it, we're having a good time :D

Tomn posted:

Hang on a minute.

Given the timefuckery, did we just leave the Beast to its own devices for years AGAIN?

Nah, that would be what, the third time? Trope needs a break :v:

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

LowellDND posted:

Nah, that would be what, the third time? Trope needs a break :v:

Oh good, I think you just saved Ark from death by heart attack from imagining Amacita's body somehow regenerating in our absence and taking over the ship.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver
Time moves fast here compared to the outside, so when we leave it will actually probably just be seconds after we entered, from their perspective.

Loel
Jun 4, 2012

"For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.



Tomn posted:

Oh good, I think you just saved Ark from death by heart attack from imagining Amacita's body somehow regenerating in our absence and taking over the ship.

Course not.

It'll be Devries :D

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TheParadigm
Dec 10, 2009

Tomn posted:

Do machines share that common ground? Did their designers assign it the same priority that Mother Nature did? Did they think survival the most important design spec for their creation? Was their skill and knowledge equal to the task of implanting in a machine the same drive that underlies all creation with all the force of millennia upon millennia of a struggle to survive? And should they fail to create the same deep drives that motivates organics, then how differently would a machine approach its goals?

It is all very well to say that if a puppet acts and talks like a human, then it is a human. But the puppet is not the puppeteer. How far can you discern the mind of the puppeteer from the actions of the puppet?

You guys have a good discussion going on here. I'd like to say first that I think you two just dead-on hit the differences that caused the rift and war between the men of iron, gold and stone.

As far as AI and how they think, lets go a step further and indulge this train of thought. Lets assume there is a real human soul and min inside an AI, that the creators were self-aware of these problems by elevating a human consciousness to the level an skill, with all the capabilities of a Mind.
Its certainly possible. Through lowell's slice of life, know that the Emperor Himself was able to engage minds on their own battlefield, on their own level, and win as a mere psyker. The fact that's even a thing, and not a fluke drastically shortens the distance between human minds and culture-Minds. It's straight up a gamechanger.

Lets have a premise that a Mind IS human. Not designed by one, not emulating one, or following orders and programming created by one. Actually 100% Human Consciousness, except on a vast, powerful scale.

Now lets apply the negatives and positives.
Trust, Deception. To have personal touches, priorities, favorites. To lie, to change your mind, to go insane. To be selfish or selflessly sacrificing. The true mark of an Intelligence is a system that has potential for insanity.

The idea that an AI-Mind can have human failings is far scarier than an AI attempting to be human. I'd take an AI that understands humanity, looks up to them as something to aspire to, while ultimately knowing that its their duty to nurture, emulate, and protect while not being one over a human overlord any day of the week. Humans are jerks, people are assholes, what can you do if you pick the wrong personality to put in the box?

Its the difference between. "aHa! I can do anything I want now. You know, i've always hated trees, gently caress that continent over oh there. Its time for some landscaping. Explodacadabra, abrakaboom!" and "Man, I've always hated trees, but its inhabited, i'm a little tempted to blow it all up, but I know I shouldn't. lets go grow some trees on a moon to scratch that itch."

In the talk between what kind of AI there are - Alien, Human-inspired, Full Human - to choose from, you forgot to ask which is more desirable to have?

The Warhammer universe kind off gives you robot apocalypses for wrong answers instead of second and third place medals.

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