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They've already got the map open, huh....can we get someone with the game to open it up and look around? Would help,with deployment planning.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:34
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That's a really big map... Although this is good for us. Our infantry and armor are better suited for long range fights. After a quick review of the map and the video, I've laid out course of action. Let me know if you any additional ideas. 1. West Bank Defense: we concentrate our forces on the western side of the river. We mine the fords and bridges. Herp's scouts provide intel on east side. Pros: allows us to use mines effectively, allows us to engage Soviet forces in the open, plays to our ranged advantage. Cons: will take a long time for action to get started, doesn't give our infantry much to do, limits our room for maneuver, leave us concentrated and vulnerable to artillery, we almost certainly lose East Town objective, massed Soviet armor may provide enough overwatch to force a crossing anyways. 2. East Bank Defense: we concentrate our forces on the eastern side. We mine the roads. Pros: forests and urban environment ideal for Panzerfaust/schreck ambushes, good lines of sight across northern fields, known chokepoints offer good mine and ambush sites. Cons: forest cover allows Soviet troops to sneak up on us, unable to retreat easily across the river, short engagement ranges allow Soviets to exploit their greater close-range firepower, difficult to cover southern flank. 3. Split Defense: we divide our forces between the two sides of the river. We'd probably keep most of the tanks on the west side and leave the infantry on the east. Pros: defense in depth bleeds and delays down Soviet forces, a dispersed deployment is less vulnerable to artillery. Cons: risk that western troops won't be able to fully support eastern ones, dividing our force in the presence of a superior enemy is risky, extracting or reinforcing troops on east bank will be difficult. Right now, I'm leaning towards Option 1, but I'm very much open to suggestions. e: sniper, thanks for the map overlay and the spreadsheet. Much appreciated! Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 06:35
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Off hand, I'm leaning towards options 1 or 3 - I definitely think we should be playing to our strengths in long range combat. Haven't had a chance to watch the video, will do so presently. And no prob. Proper logistics are the first step in winning a war, after all.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:39
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For those with the game, the map is the Studienka map. The map is 3040m wide and 2000m tall. Would breaking up the map into quadrants and then overlaying those be useful? I can see orders getting even more muddled than normal if using this zoomed out map. Getting one big height map on this is going to be difficult as the baseline height on this map is 150, so that if I were to take a zoomed out picture, it would be unreadable as the numbers just meld together. I'll play around with the map to locate all the fords and mark them. About how long will we have to plan the deployment? For my infantry gun platoon, how many guns am I working with?
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Aug 19, 2014 06:42
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Dralun posted:The map is 3040m wide and 2000m tall. Would breaking up the map into quadrants and then overlaying those be useful? I can see orders getting even more muddled than normal if using this zoomed out map. Yes please! Another option would be to steal the Kreigsmarine's system and create sub-grids like so:  I'm not picky, just as long as we have a way of quickly identifying areas with tactically-meaningful levels of detail. Dralun posted:I'll play around with the map to locate all the fords and mark them. That'd be very helpful. I want to mine as many fords as possible. Dralun posted:For my infantry gun platoon, how many guns am I working with? You've got a two 75mm guns, plus their two-man ammo bearer teams and your platoon HQ.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:50
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When I have photoshop access again (Saturday night, if not, then Sunday), I can do whatever we need in the way of mapmaking and the like. Especially now that I have helpfully been provided a scale for the map.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:55
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I'm partial towards Option 3: Herp's Recon Platoon with the Mortar section on the West bank holding the eastern edge of the town around M8-N8, and then one of the PzG Companies (with one of their HMGs sent to Herp if possible?) holding the town proper around J6-K7. Herp should have good eyes-on if the Soviets try hard for the Southern fords, otherwise they're going to get tangled up rooting infantry out of the town. I agree with deploying armor on the East bank, maybe somewhere in the area C7-E12. I think from there they should be able to peep any Reds that make it across.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:56
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Oh man, a nice big map. I was just looking at the map in the editor. The western town is built up on a big hill. There is lots of good cover and the view is excellent from there. It looks to be our best defensive position at first glance. On the other hand, I think we should seriously think about deploying heavily on the eastern side. There are lots of amazing hit-and-run ambush positions. We are allowed to deploy our troops really far forward, and the terrain allows for easy, covered withdrawals. Perhaps we should take advantage of it. The western town is an obvious spot for the 88s, mortars and maybe some small infantry detachments, but I think we could be missing a huge opportunity if we just throw everyone into the western town for the whole battle. I'm really happy that we have mines, there are lots of great spots for them as well. I'm going to keep looking around, and maybe start drawing on maps and all that. The more people we have drawing on maps and pointing out interesting locations, the better. Dirt Worshipper posted:E: I'm not sure if I've even seen that type of 88 in the game before... should be interesting.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:17
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The actual gun, not a huge height difference, for those interested
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Also, I still need roll20 access. Just send the invite to SABacarruda at gmail.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:22
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The first turn will of course be 5 minutes I may then do another 5 min turn after that. Battle time will be set to 1.5 hours, to account for the larger map.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:32
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I would also like the Roll20 invite. You can PM me. Thanks! As for the battle, I find it more interesting to try to defend both towns instead of just packing everyone onto the west side and waiting. So let's deploy in the eastern town as well, and attempt some orderly retreats to further lines of defense. This has the added benefit of slowing the enemy down - if we just deploy to the west, we're giving them too much time to come and destroy us. Plus the western town is such an obvious defensive spot that it will be bombed to oblivion. I would very much like to deploy my heavy platoon somewhere by the river on the southern half on the map, to provide crossfire on the eastern village and cover the open southern fields. The area is too open to deploy a whole company, but I think we can hide a couple o HMGs and mortars in the trees quite well.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:37
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Invites sent
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Aug 19, 2014 07:42
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edit: i'm dumb  I dare say that the map feels like it might be a bit too big for the not-huge number of troops we've got.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:43
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TehKeen posted:Is Grey's video comepletely black after the initial logo for anyone else? It's black for a long while but you get a visual about 30 seconds in
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Aug 19, 2014 07:44
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 I'm suddenly very happy that I'm not one to bother on company level assignments on a map of this size.That being said, I'd like us to try the approach 3 as well. It may go disastrously what with shared command and all, so our retreats might fail to coordinate with smoke screens and all, but it'll be more interesting for everyone involved and it'll be counter to what the Germans actually did (often with miserable results).
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Aug 19, 2014 07:45
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Pretty much everything seems to be infantry fordable, it just might take them a bit. Haven't tested vehicles yet. Another thing to consider is that the bridges are able to be destroyed. It took about 3 minutes of two panthers to destroy the main span in I6. Also, roll20 invite, please, either through pm or jaytaggart at gmail.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:54
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Dirt Worshipper posted:Ah I didnt realise, ok. With a deploy time of 5 minutes and pack up of 11 God-drat minutes, we're not losing much of in the way of mobility. And for me, it's the best known version of 88, since, you know, Company of Heroes. Valiantman posted:
I don't think there's going to be much retreating. Not putting much faith into infantry getting anywhere on legs and Panthers, roomy as they are, really can't be risked in transport. Another thing: how big are scout teams? Could we at least give the And if it's not too much work, could I get a glimpse at the map in designated areas, as well from the soviet deployment zone? Of course, if I'm noobing this thread too much for a platoon commander, just say so.  Ed: I'm sort of an idiot, haven't watched the video beforehand. Now I'm scared. Should we plop an infantry platoon on one of the islands to the south, whichever is best covered and offers best view of the crossings? Foxholes and organic 42's would do wonders against tanks, and if they had to engage tanks at short ranges, well, Panzershrecks and -fausts are meant for that, aren't they? Also, any use in trying to hold east town? Seems to me that every building can be easily attacked by tanks that just rolled in straight from Commie deployment zone. TRPs: where can soviets place them and how likely are they to land in Western town, traight on our 88s? JcDent fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 08:17
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I definitely think people shouldn't be afraid to ask for in game shots - the Soviets kept em flowing freely last match, and they're great for the vital tasks of positioning and LOS determining. On the subject of height maps....can someone post the raw image? I can try to tweak it to make it usable if it's not out of the box, but as mentioned it'd be a few days. The way zi see it, the more information we have, the better. Especially as you're in my company!
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Aug 19, 2014 08:20
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I get to draw lines on maps now. Yay!  It appears that the Soviets don't get many options for maneuvering their armor in the early stages of the battle, unless they want to move through thick woods. There are a lot of low hedges that are impassable for tanks as well. They can go right down the main road and across a bridge, or through the open fields to the north. There is also a little trail through the southern woods that they can move tanks through. If they go this way, they would have to cross a shallow creek. The ground is marshy in a lot of areas and they would have to be careful, but they could still do it. My first thought was that we could mine the bridge and put down a thin skirmish line along the edge of the woods. We could split squads and spread them out over a wide area. The ground along those woods is slightly elevated above the creek, and would be a great position for ambushes all along the line. Our troops could open fire and then easily get up and withdraw through the woods a few seconds later. The only problem is that they could outflank us to the north, but we could could have our tanks and other troops in reserve to deal with that.  A possible second line would be across the road cutting through the west woods. At some point they would have to cross that road and we could hit them again before withdrawing. Soviet SMG troops are always a problem in the woods, but it IS possible to defeat them in close quarters. After that, we could withdraw into the village itself. 
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Aug 19, 2014 08:54
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I can't open the manual here (at work), can someone upload it to roll20 or mail it? e: Thanks! Sorted. vanity slug fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 09:15
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I'm for option 3. We have to make them pay for the objective, not give it up for free. Any time slowing them down on the east side means they'll have less time to plan the action on the west. I realize I may be volunteering to have my men killed earlier, but I'm okay with it. e: My thoughts would be to keep the defensive units on the east in the town itself. Mine the main bridge and use the north path to retreat vehicles, any of the bridges to pull back infantry. Question for those who can load the map: How well can units in the west town cover/spot areas of east town? Kangra fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 09:42
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Man, thats a big map...Dralun posted:For those with the game, the map is the Studienka map. Someone with RT, do you think you could get a higher quality version - perhaps screenshot it in quarters or sixths and I could mosaic them together them on roll20? For grid referencing, we could break up every square into quadrants, e.g. "Move to H-4NW" (NE, SW, SE)
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Aug 19, 2014 09:52
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Will Herp's Merry Band of Snipers and Scouts be able to call in indirect mortar fire? Seems like a good alternative to risking our forward observers.
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Aug 19, 2014 10:10
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Dralun posted:Another thing to consider is that the bridges are able to be destroyed. It took about 3 minutes of two panthers to destroy the main span in I6. This has the potential to be a huge thing! We could force them to redirect much of their tanks to the south unless there are concealed fords in the north. I seriously doubt they would suspect something like this, what with us geing goons and all. Also, once we have the battalion-level battle plan, we're going to need many, many close-ups on the environment and lines of sight. I don't have the game, otherwise I'd be happy to be our company's screenshot man. Do we have any people in the 2nd Company who would like to be the recon drone?
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Aug 19, 2014 10:19
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Can we blow bridges with engineers? Did we get engineers? 
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Aug 19, 2014 10:56
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There are only 6 vehicle fordable points allowing armor to get to west town by my count. Temp bridge one and two, main bridge and two onto the porkchop shaped island in I12 and one off. I'll double check tomorrow in case I missed one. Anti tank mines can not be placed directly on the bridges, so any hope of creating a roadblock on the bridge won't work. Even dividing the map into sixths still feels way zoomed out, though I'll work on it tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it. Out of curiosity, how big was the previous map? 
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Aug 19, 2014 10:59
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Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 11:07
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I think that - so far as our armour is concerned - we should resist the urge to spread them too thinly; they should be able to support each other and help protect against attempts to outflank them. Of course, they shouldn't be right on top of one another, but it's something to consider.Dralun posted:Anti tank mines can not be placed directly on the bridges, so any hope of creating a roadblock on the bridge won't work. Maybe not directly on the bridge, but what about at the entrance/exit to it? Though of course there is the risk that if we're too overzealous with the mining (and depending on our deployment) we may end up cutting ourselves off from a way of retreating.
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Aug 19, 2014 11:08
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What I'm most concerned about is their tanks. The map is big enough that I doubt Herp's scouts can cover all that ground. They'll probably be sending hordes of heavy tanks down our throat. We need to know exactly how large their force is and where it's going as soon as possible. We might just need to treat the bulk of our infantry as glorified scouts and bodyguards for our own tanks and guns. They might have lots of tank riders as well. If we deploy a good number of men forward, around those east woods, we can mow down lots of those tank riders as they roll by us, before they might think to disembark. If we stick to the town, then I'm not sure what will happen. Buildings provide poor cover from tank shells, and their infantry can envelop the village from the surrounding woods. It seems very tempting to stick to the west village as well. River crossings are always really dangerous, there's good cover all over the place and we could counterattack the east village later if we want. It's up to Bacarruda I guess. Valiantman posted:This has the potential to be a huge thing! We could force them to redirect much of their tanks to the south unless there are concealed fords in the north. I seriously doubt they would suspect something like this, what with us geing goons and all. I'm not sure if their heavy tanks can even cross those bridges. I tried crossing a bridge on one of the single player scenarios with IS-2s and an ISU-152 but they couldn't do it. T-34s could, but not the heavies. Our Tigers might not be able to cross either. I'm not sure if the bridges on our map are the same kind of bridge that I couldn't cross earlier. I'd test it myself but I'm gonna go to sleep in a minute. It would be kinda hilarious if they try to cross one of those bridges and get stuck in a traffic jam instead. It seems like a good idea to destroy them anyway. Then we could put our valuable mines elsewhere. Also, I can help provide terrain close-ups and LOS screenshots and that kind of thing. The more people who can do that, the better. Jeoh posted:Will Herp's Merry Band of Snipers and Scouts be able to call in indirect mortar fire? Seems like a good alternative to risking our forward observers. The platoon leader probably could, but not the individual squads.
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Aug 19, 2014 11:10
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Dralun posted:There are only 6 vehicle fordable points allowing armor to get to west town by my count. Temp bridge one and two, main bridge and two onto the porkchop shaped island in I12 and one off. I'll double check tomorrow in case I missed one. Is the fog of war realistic enough that they won't magically see the bridges blowing up before they actually have someone looking at them? We really should blow up at least one bridge anyway, but for example leaving Temp Bridge #1 intact while destroying #2 without them noticing until they've crossed #1 would be all too delicious. I'd say we use our anti-personnel mines either to protect the anti-tank mines or, preferably, to deny the Soviet infantry some critical stretch of woods near East Village. Mining the south fords is tempting, of course, seeing that they might not have any other way for their tanks to cross but, then again, are they able to just leave them to overwatch and not close in anyway? e: Do we have spot on a road in the eastern side of the map where we KNOW they will ride through? It might be a waste of a perfectly good mine but I love the "ho-ho-ho, now we have MINES" -psychological effect on the enemy when their leading scout element becomes a smoking wreck 2 minutes in. Who knows, some of them might start avoiding roads and get stuck. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 11:35
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The Eastern town is an objective for them, so they will have to take it, which means we don't really need dedicated scouts as long as we fight for it (assuming we do decide to, which I recommend). If we do stuff like having the Recce platoon shoot tank riders and whatnot that might make them cautious enough to bog them down taking the East bank. I do think though that the tanks should start on the West bank already and just move north-to-south to react to whichever crossing is getting more activity.
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Aug 19, 2014 11:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:I do think though that the tanks should start on the West bank already and just move north-to-south to react to whichever crossing is getting more activity. I don't see the harm in a couple of Panthers having an overwatch position over that field to the north, as long as they can reverse back after taking a pot-shot or two and retreat over the bridges which we then blow up.
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Aug 19, 2014 11:43
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I like your ideas about mines, valiantman, I think using the majority of mines to deny the south fords along with one or two chokepoints elsewhere would work really nicely. I think that if they get vehicles striking mines while still a ways off from the ford, they won't even get much recon in the south and the whole south sector could be held by minimum troops. Some ideas, all road crosses are AT, AP ones because infantry will like to advance as near as possible to the town under cover. 
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Aug 19, 2014 12:37
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I won't get a chance to look at the map until much later today, unfortunately. So I don't have any qualified opinions on which deployments to use. That said, and this might be metagamey, I think we need to really keep in mind the turn format here, especially at the start. Five minutes of game wherein we aren't able to respond to the enemy or update orders is a damned long time, and since we are on the defensive it behooves us to learn as much as we can in that timeframe, since it will pretty strongly influence the overall shape of the battle. Especially if Grey ends up doing two five minute turns that's a long time in which we might have very little intel if we stick west. I think we should do some tests ASAP to figure out how long it takes units to move around the map, particularly from the enemy deploy. That plus the obvious line of sight checks should help inform us on where we might want to be.
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Aug 19, 2014 13:21
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I'm going to start focusing on anti-tank things. This is what I have time for before work: Here is a very likely armor avenue of approach, using the open areas to approach the heights just east of Studienka. The tree line looks like a likely staging area.  Here's a 3d view of the treeline and the view from the heights  If you go move west a little, closer to the town, you can see in this screenshot just how good their LOS is from these heights. You can see almost the entire western portion of the map.  Proposal One or both of my 88's and maybe some armor assets overwatching the western side of these heights for when they inevitably appear, silhouetted against the skyline. It seems like we really can't afford to let them take this position without a fight, and we can engage from far pretty away. Ill try and work on good emplacement spots when I get some time after work
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Aug 19, 2014 14:33
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Dirt Worshipper posted:If you go move west a little, closer to the town, you can see in this screenshot just how good their LOS is from these heights. You can see almost the entire western portion of the map. That's a... damnit. I'd sacrifice several tanks for getting that overwatch position if I was the Soviet command. How's the range of their heavy tanks, how far can they fire from there, exactly?
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Aug 19, 2014 15:18
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That overview goes both ways. If they can see us, we can see them... and our 88s are way less visible. I suggest hiding them somewhere where they can see the ridge, except to the obvious western village, which will inevitably be under artillery barrage.
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Aug 19, 2014 15:29
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Valiantman posted:Is the fog of war realistic enough that they won't magically see the bridges blowing up before they actually have someone looking at them? We really should blow up at least one bridge anyway, but for example leaving Temp Bridge #1 intact while destroying #2 without them noticing until they've crossed #1 would be all too delicious. Once the bridge is destroyed, they will be able to see that it is so, even if they don't have LOS on it. As I just figured this out myself, how safe is it to assume that the soviets will not realize that their infantry can cross anywhere or that their vehicles can cross even after the bridge is blown? I'm hopeful that once they see the bridges are down, they reroute to the southern fords. They only have 90 minutes, so if we can force them to have to reroute midfight, it serves our purpose. Regarding mines: we only have 6 of the anti tank type, so I'm of the opinion we use them where we know they have to go, which is the fords/bridges. Rough plan would be to blow main bridge and temp bridge one as they only require one crossing to get to the west side, while southern fords require two, increasing their chance to bog. Mine those fords, cover them with a schreck team or two plus a trp, and then focus tanks/atgs on the southern fords. Dralun fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 15:34
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I'm a fan of option 1, but I believe we should have a forward element posted at East Town, point "Studienka West" according to the map. I5 according to the grid. They'll have good lines of sight and our capacity for city fighting (whilst lower than the enemy's) is great in such a location due to the ranges presented. Our more mobile force ought to be positioned south of the Berezina River, where the major crossings are and where line of sight is massive. We'll also need AT posted there. I'll get some drawings indicating what exactly I mean. This map is amazingly big, but there are many easy chokepoints. We can easily eliminate the effectiveness of hostile armour presence by use of roadblocks generated through an effective mine. Also, if we can, I believe we should blow all bridges but the main bridge. This will force them to move for the fords, as Fangz will be certain the Main Bridge would be a trap. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 15:35
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| # ? Apr 20, 2024 00:31 |
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Dralun posted:Once the bridge is destroyed, they will be able to see that it is so, even if they don't have LOS on it. Considering they have decent in-game screenshots (uPen's post on the last page), I'm sure they've already tested the rivers. Assume that they know. I figure we'd be best off with option 3.
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Aug 19, 2014 15:44
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