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So basically both Russia and Ukraine have suffered huge losses, and the Russians actually believe they're fighting Nazis? lol gg putin
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Sep 4, 2014 22:48
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Present posted:This is a great candid interview with a Russian guy that's getting paid to fight in Ukraine on the side of the separatists. Alas, it's in Russian, and long, but I'll translate the parts that were interesting to me. Interesting, however if the training is that poor. How come it appears that the separatists are winning against the Ukrainian Army
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Sep 4, 2014 23:12
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Tab8715 posted:Interesting, however if the training is that poor. How come it appears that the separatists are winning against the Ukrainian Army Because the VDV is actually pretty well trained, unlike a bunch of dipshit Russian neo-Nazis.
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Sep 4, 2014 23:17
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Tab8715 posted:Interesting, however if the training is that poor. How come it appears that the separatists are winning against the Ukrainian Army They weren't. The recent turn of the tide was thanks to professional Russian troops getting involved. e:fb
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Sep 4, 2014 23:19
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Radio Prune posted:Because the VDV is actually pretty well trained, unlike a bunch of dipshit Russian neo-Nazis. Not only are they well trained, they also make quality music videos complete with explosions and karate kicks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rAHrHd2lcw Official OSCE report on the situation in Mariupol http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/123210 Some more video of todays shelling at a position by Mariupol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7k6bHCoBcw It looks like both sides are digging in for a protracted siege, I don't think this will end soon.
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Sep 4, 2014 23:34
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sparatuvs posted:Not only are they well trained, they also make quality music videos complete with explosions and karate kicks. I remember when this came out. I couldn't believe it was not a parody. I am still not entirely convinced.
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Sep 4, 2014 23:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:He probably means rate of casualties among the fighters. Also, casualty does not mean dead it's injured and dead. There were surely more than 5000 and 7000 soldiers injured during the chechen wars. Yeah this is it. The guy in the interview was referring to the losses on the separatists' side of the conflict. He gives two examples. A group of mercenaries counting 300 people enters Ukraine. In the first week 200 of that 300 are killed or wounded as a result of Ukrainian artillery fire. The second example is a group of 82 people entering Ukraine, and in the first few days there are 19 dead, 30 wounded. In other news the Ukrainian rep to the UN reports Russia giving out Russian passports to people in Donetsk/Lugansk.
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Sep 5, 2014 00:04
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Haven't the Russian's been doing that passport thing for years now? I recall that being a part of their tactic in claiming Russians in Crimea were under "threat".
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Sep 5, 2014 00:15
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Grey Fox V2 posted:Haven't the Russian's been doing that passport thing for years now? I recall that being a part of their tactic in claiming Russians in Crimea were under "threat". Yeah they did it in South Ossetia and Abkhazia as well. Couple articles on it: http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/ukraine-russia-crimeapassportizationcitizenship.html http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/russian-passportization/ (from 2008) It essentially extends Russian sovereignty bit-by-bit into the region, which could mean anything from maintaining an artificial minority of Russian citizens they can use as pawns to destabilise the region or use as bait, up to preparations for annexation like Crimea.
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Sep 5, 2014 00:25
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Berke Negri posted:The last Roman Emperor was Kayser-i Rum Mehmed VI Please. No true Roman Emperor would go out as pathetically as he did. Constantine XI went out like a badass, cutting down janissaries until he got dogpiled.  e: Also, this is a thing. And I have it, and it is glorious.
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Sep 5, 2014 00:50
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Is there any substantive evidence to the claim that the current Ukranian government is in any way/partly made up of "Nazis" or "Fascists"? I've got a friend who continues to insist that this is the case. Of course, he also insists that the current government is "illegal" because it didn't follow all the proper channels, as do all real revolutions 
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Sep 5, 2014 01:24
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There are definitely fascists fighting for the Ukrainians (see: Azov Battalion) as well as some in the government, but they're far from running the show.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:27
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The far-right party Svoboda still provides three people in the current cabinet (out of about two dozen), and I think there are a few of them as well as other non-party-aligned far-rightists in place elsewhere in the government. But yeah it's not a Nazi junta or whatever.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:30
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Also there are fascists/far-right supporters practically everywhere in Europe.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:31
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eXXon posted:Also there are fascists/far-right supporters practically everywhere in Europe. And a whole lot of them are supporting/fighting for Russia too.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:33
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The comparison to the Chechen wars is probably accurate for the separatist side, since they were losing up until the recent reversal. Insurgents and rebel armies tend to suffer much higher casualties than the regular forces they're fighting, after all, and while Russia gave them a ton of support they still fell well below the standards of an actual military. That's what made Russia's recent intervention so obvious and remarkable, the swift reversal of momentum and steep Ukrainian casualties are the sort of thing they could only achieve with regular soldiers. Russia probably paid a disproportionate cost in men and material lost to keep up the charade of "local separatist movements".
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Sep 5, 2014 01:43
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It's interesting that the Russians clearly expected this to be a meat-grinder and unlike the the highly-trained contract soldiers used in Crimea they're just sending in barely-trained warm bodies and conscripts (albeit VDV conscripts). Also, given the current fetish for guided weapons, how brutally effective the grads and artillery are proving to be in this conflict. And the extensive use of tanks despite both sides having access to advanced ATGMs.
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Sep 5, 2014 01:55
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All throughout this push by Russian forces on Mariupol and other parts of eastern Ukraine, you keep hearing "we didn't have any heavy weapons/tanks" from the retreating Ukrainian soldiers/volunteer battalions. Now that I'm following a couple different folks in Mariupol on Twitter, I'm hearing the same thing--and many seem to wondering where the UA armor/heavy weapons have gone. Are they simply not deployed in the area, and is the UA straight up just avoiding a fight? That's what it seems to be based on what I'm reading. I'm not casting any value judgment on that either way--obviously it seems smarter for light infantry with no ATGMs/RPGs/tanks to retreat in the face of armor rather than get cut down. However, right now the conflict seems to have mostly turned into Ukrainian volunteers/soldiers getting shelled at blockpost/city A, retreating to blockpost/city B, and repeating the cycle over and over, with most of the "action" consisting of both sides' columns of vehicles periodically getting lit the gently caress up by something.
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Sep 5, 2014 02:36
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Here's a long and interesting article, though probably too pro-russian for most people's taste: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all
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Sep 5, 2014 02:47
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What the hell are they smoking in Poland? SA Wardega video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoB8t0B4jx4 Is Putin God? This and other questions will be answered in an upcoming lecture. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/radical-russian-orthodox-activist-to-lecture-on-whether-putin-will-become-god/506325.html
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Sep 5, 2014 03:06
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Count Roland posted:Well, the guy that took the throne, but his was the creation of the new Ottoman Empire rather than a direct continuation of the old. It sounds like most of the casualties are coming from rocket barrages and artillery; and with most of the forces being light motorized or infantry they could really be getting torn up.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:14
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Cheatum the Evil Midget posted:Here's a long and interesting article, though probably too pro-russian for most people's taste: Boy, if that's pro-Russian, I can't imagine what an anti-Russian version would read like. I think what you mean is that it's not unabashedly pro-Ukrainian. It reads like a fairly objective account at first glance (I haven't been paying enough attention to attempt fact checking any claims). Until the last ~10 paragraphs or so, anyway. Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 03:15
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Is there any substantive evidence to the claim that the current Ukranian government is in any way/partly made up of "Nazis" or "Fascists"? I've got a friend who continues to insist that this is the case. the proper channel being the diplomatic phone line to the kremlin
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Sep 5, 2014 03:20
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DrPop posted:All throughout this push by Russian forces on Mariupol and other parts of eastern Ukraine, you keep hearing "we didn't have any heavy weapons/tanks" from the retreating Ukrainian soldiers/volunteer battalions. Now that I'm following a couple different folks in Mariupol on Twitter, I'm hearing the same thing--and many seem to wondering where the UA armor/heavy weapons have gone. Are they simply not deployed in the area, and is the UA straight up just avoiding a fight? That's what it seems to be based on what I'm reading. Well there has been evidence Ukrainians have heavy weapons, however there has been considerable attrition on them. A bunch were captured in Crimea, the war in Donbass has been dragging on (and the separatists were probably initially using captured weapons themselves) and the Russians have now been pumping in weapons to replace lost ones. There has been numbers of reports amount entire Ukrainian columns being knocked out, those might irreparable losses. Furthermore, the Ukrainian army in completely awful shape before the war started and I suspect much of their equipment are rusted out 25+ year hulks sitting in random yards. That said, there is evidence of other working equipment such as the Independence Day parade in Kiev but I suspect it may be kept around as a reserve to protect the capital. Kiev isn't that far away from Belarus. However, the Ukrainians are starting to run out of places to retreat the Donbass itself, they can always move to more friendly provinces but would allow Putin to take the two provinces and have complete bargaining power. It is a pretty desperate position to be in, at least a Russian soldier is going to have armored support and artillery backing him while the Ukrainians seem to be having to rely more and more as you say on light infantry versus mechanized units. The Russians have been taking causalities, Soviet era weapons have plenty of bite but the Ukrainians may be in a tight spot. I guess you could the bright spot in all of this is that the Russians are moving fairly cautiously and haven't pushed strongly outside the Donbass yet. That said, if Mariupol falls, it is the big transportation hub and population center there and the Russians would much freer to push along the coast with it. Edit: As for the volunteers, yeah they were internal ministry troops that were quickly trained and lightly armed. The telling thing is that they are being sent to man strategic points without equipment, if anything it seems these are the guys that are frequently on the frontlines. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 03:20
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DrPop posted:All throughout this push by Russian forces on Mariupol and other parts of eastern Ukraine, you keep hearing "we didn't have any heavy weapons/tanks" from the retreating Ukrainian soldiers/volunteer battalions. Now that I'm following a couple different folks in Mariupol on Twitter, I'm hearing the same thing--and many seem to wondering where the UA armor/heavy weapons have gone. Are they simply not deployed in the area, and is the UA straight up just avoiding a fight? That's what it seems to be based on what I'm reading. Note that the reason volunteers generally don't have heavy weapons is pretty banal, actually: most of them are legally interior ministry troops, which are supposed to be light infantry and are not meant to have heavy stuff in the first place.. A lot of armed forces's equipment got mauled by artillery, though.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:22
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Cheatum the Evil Midget posted:Here's a long and interesting article, though probably too pro-russian for most people's taste: Whenever I keep seeing articles on how the separatists and pro-Russia supporters are people too and are fighting for their blah blah blah, I just remember that they've been watching Putin's TV channels and literally believe that they are about to be invaded by Kiev's forces, who will kill all the men and children and rape the women. This is literally what they believe they are defending their homes from. It's hard for me to identify with someone like that.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:26
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Present posted:Whenever I keep seeing articles on how the separatists and pro-Russia supporters are people too and are fighting for their blah blah blah, I just remember that they've been watching Putin's TV channels and literally believe that they are about to be invaded by Kiev's forces, who will kill all the men and children and rape the women. It is important to remember that they're in a sense also Putin's victims, even if they are pawns for his 4th term campaign.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:27
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Present posted:Whenever I keep seeing articles on how the separatists and pro-Russia supporters are people too and are fighting for their blah blah blah, I just remember that they've been watching Putin's TV channels and literally believe that they are about to be invaded by Kiev's forces, who will kill all the men and children and rape the women. I don't know if you actually read the article but it does not suggest that at all: quote:No one was thinking that all this would lead to war. People were scared and unhappy and doing something about it. That the protest took on such a strong separatist colour was due less to the protesters’ basic demands (regional autonomy might have been enough for many) than to the recent Russian annexation of Crimea. ‘The contradictions didn’t necessarily lead to war,’ Dergunov said. ‘But when Crimea went with the option of total separation, it pushed the extremes, both pro-Ukraine and pro-Russian, to the fore. That was Putin’s real crime – this is what created the war.’ It sounds like the genuine local separatists were not expecting to run an separatist rebellion as such, but that they were pushed into independence by Crimea's 'success', and then into armed insurrection by Russian agents.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:33
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OddObserver posted:Note that the reason volunteers generally don't have heavy weapons is pretty banal, actually: most of them are legally interior ministry troops, Yeah, the army not releasing heavy weapons to volunteer battalions was a hot topic for a while. Thankfully they're getting their rear end in gear and making changes. There was a news release about one battalion getting tanks and Grads, etc, recently, I want to say Donbass but not 100%. And yeah there's been a lot of mud slinging in the Ukrainian media about the speed with which heavy weapons are making their way from stockpiles to the front lines. Bureaucracy/sabotage is the popular opinion of why this is happening. Hopefully they'll sort it out sooner than later.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:33
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too pro-seperatist for the thread's taste means "sees the donbass seperatists as people with grievances and concerns that could be addressed through negotiation rather than foolish dupes to be stomped" That said, the proper time for negotiations was long ago when the revolt had a mostly local flavour, rather than it's present status as a wholly GRU run operation
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Sep 5, 2014 03:41
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Present posted:Yeah, the army not releasing heavy weapons to volunteer battalions was a hot topic for a while. Thankfully they're getting their rear end in gear and making changes. There was a news release about one battalion getting tanks and Grads, etc, recently, I want to say Donbass but not 100%. I suspect one reason very well may be that the stuff in the stockpiles may not be in working order, it is quite common in former Soviet states for working equipment to be only a fraction of the paper total. I don't know how much actual working equipment is being held back by actual bureaucracy and how much just isn't properly working, some of it could be sabotage or simply parts have been sold or rusted over by the years.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:42
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eXXon posted:I don't know if you actually read the article but it does not suggest that at all: Dude, right in the second paragraph: quote:When the Maidan protests started in Kiev late last year, Mishin followed them with increasing anxiety. He watched as young men in masks and the insignia of old Ukrainian fascist movements attacked riot police – some of them from the Donetsk area – with Molotov cocktails. He saw governors in the western provinces pulled out of their offices and roughed up by furious crowds. It seemed that the country was descending into chaos. When he heard a rumour that some of the young men from Maidan were headed for Donetsk, he believed it.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:43
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The article literally says "In Donetsk I had expected to find a totalitarian proto-state, and I did." It's not pro-rebel by any stretch of the imagination. If it's anything it's pro-actual people who live in Donbass.
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Sep 5, 2014 03:45
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Present posted:Dude, right in the second paragraph: Kiev's forces is not the same thing as Maidan protestors. The former implies regular armed forces. And a few paragraphs later it suggests that representatives of the post-Maidan ministry of the interior came and met with the pro-Ukrainian ultras and urged them to arm themselves to fight separatists. If that's true, it wasn't exactly unjustified paranoia, was it?
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Sep 5, 2014 03:50
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I'm not going to split hairs. Bottom line is many people from the Donetsk/Lugansk region are literally afraid of getting murdered/raped/eaten by Kiev and by Ukrainian army and by Ukrainians from the western part of the country. And I get that it's not their fault, but when they pick up guns and start abducting people for having a Ukrainian flag decal on their lovely Soviet era car, well, then it gets me. There's a cool article I read recently about how Russia's nuclear arsenal is actually useless now. The main thust of the article is that the only facility that was used to produce the radiative material for the warheads was dismantled years ago thanks to some treaty, and the existing warheads finally turned inert. I can't seem to find it anywhere.
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Sep 5, 2014 04:15
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Present posted:I'm not going to split hairs. Bottom line is many people from the Donetsk/Lugansk region are literally afraid of getting murdered/raped/eaten by Kiev and by Ukrainian army and by Ukrainians from the western part of the country. And I get that it's not their fault, but when they pick up guns and start abducting people for having a Ukrainian flag decal on their lovely Soviet era car, well, then it gets me. Probably because that sounds like total horseshit. Russia has more than a few nuclear reactors.
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Sep 5, 2014 04:33
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Cheatum the Evil Midget posted:Probably because that sounds like total horseshit. Russia has more than a few nuclear reactors. Just having a nuclear reactor doesn't mean you can turn a spigot and pump out some bomb juice, dude. You need specialized processing facilities to finish off that sort of stuff and assemble a working nuclear weapon.
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Sep 5, 2014 04:40
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I've never heard of weapons grade nuclear material going inert. The half life on uranium is how many millions of years? The US has a government agency tasked to secure weapons grade nuclear material all over the world. http://nnsa.energy.gov/aboutus/ourprograms/dnn/gtri
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Sep 5, 2014 04:46
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:I've never heard of weapons grade nuclear material going inert. The half life on uranium is how many millions of years? The US has a government agency tasked to secure weapons grade nuclear material all over the world. I think the weak link is the tritium needed for the fusion core. It's got a half-life of 12.5 years, so it has to be renewed periodically. I guess the fission part of the bomb would still work, but the yield would be far lower.
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Sep 5, 2014 04:57
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Deteriorata posted:I think the weak link is the tritium needed for the fusion core. It's got a half-life of 12.5 years, so it has to be renewed periodically. I guess the fission part of the bomb would still work, but the yield would be far lower. quote:Since Rosatom consolidated its weapons-related activities, GKhK is no longer formally involved in the production of nuclear warheads. Its last plutonium production reactor was shut down in 2010. [2] Its radiochemical plant reprocessed the remnants of this reactor's fuel in 2012, thereby officially ending weapons-grade material production in Russia (this material is stored in a U.S.-monitored facility). [3] Studies suggest that, despite the halt of all weapons-related production activities, GKhK retains a facility for the storage of weapons-usable fissile materials. [4] Never the less according to the description of this facility: http://www.nti.org/facilities/894/ quote:It sounds like Russia still has Tritium production capability. It very well may be that the Russians don't enrich Uranium or produce Plutonium (239 has a high half life) but keep up the production of Tritium. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 05:10
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