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Hbomberguy posted:It's because, like in many animes, the real source of human potential lies in the boundless power of its ideas, its imagination. Is Morpheus wrong, then, or is he lying to Neo?
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Sep 15, 2014 05:55
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Hbomberguy posted:People often raise the point that the machine's plan doesn't work. Humans don't generate new energy. We're not fuel sources. We might be batteries, but so are actual batteries. Why not store it in those? The original script had the Matrix harnessing human minds to serve as the network for the machines. It was deemed to complex for audiences so they bumped us down to batteries, but the story still makes a bit more sense when you view it in that light. Another interesting thing from early drafts is that Switch was originally going to be played by a female actor in the Matrix and a male actor in the real world. Hence the name, "Switch." Again, this was deemed too confusing, so it got cut.
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Sep 15, 2014 05:56
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Sef! posted:One of the things that majorly changed my outlook on the sequels was when I realized just how balls-to-the-walls comic book nutso they are. The first film plays a lot of the weirdness with a fairly straight face, but the sequels completely embrace it, and I kind of dig it for that reason. Case in point: one of my favorite little things is the whole "Huh. Upgrades." bit. There was a lot of outcry over that. I was part of that group until I realized the hilarity of how it's played. Morpheus uses an enchanted katana to perform an exorcism on a Cadillac Escalade.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:11
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I remember it being always hated, but that's because the release was so close together; the second one did great, but the ending did not excite fans for the third. They didn't hate it through. The haters gained traction after the third bombed like months later.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:17
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Sir Kodiak posted:Is Morpheus wrong, then, or is he lying to Neo? Morpheus ultimately ended up being wrong about pretty much everything, whether explicitly or implicitly. He was essentially the most clueless character in the whole trilogy.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:20
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They are bad because the Wachowski brothers are bad filmmakers
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Sep 15, 2014 06:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Morpheus uses an enchanted katana to perform an exorcism on a Cadillac Escalade. Which doesn't work until he embraces the turn of events on the freeway (he warns Trinity off of it earlier in the film). He picks the sword up at the chateau, swings it at the ghosts, nothing happens (because he doesn't believe it will work). Car stops on the freeway, Morpheus steps out and wrecks the Escalade because he in a place where faith finally outsteps his rigid pragmatism, which is another element that extends throughout the series. In any other text that might seem coincidental, but The Matrix was so deliberate that you can't help but accept the sequel as being aware of a certain level of examination. And it's still all super comic booky. Dude fights ghosts with a sword because it's baller as hell, etc.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:24
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zVxTeflon posted:They are bad because the Wachowski brothers are bad filmmakers Bound, Speed Racer, and Cloud Atlas are all really good though so...
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Sep 15, 2014 07:51
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Also there's only one Wachowski brother. 
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Sep 15, 2014 07:53
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Also there's only one Wachowski brother. It's a lot easier to read their cribbing from The Invisibles as sincere in this light, really. Also, I think I'd rather have Speed Racer than any number of bland attempts to recreate the broad-based appeal of The Matrix.
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Sep 15, 2014 08:18
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Did anybody watch Animatrix? I saw it when it came out (on motherfucking VHS bitches) but I don't know if it is any good, I was just a kid back then. The New Reneissance bits were horribly violent and disturbing in a bad way, like it didn't have anything to say and it wasn't cool or fun or stylish or anything, it was just torture porn which I think is the worst kind of anime there is.Like it's what a 14-year old would consider super edgy but it ends up being pretty disgusting. The art was cool I guess, but yeesh. gently caress that noise. The rest of it i don't remember. The Matrix setting always bothered me because it's like this stoner college student idea: "Dude, what if were, like, inside a programming, man?" Add some anime and people jizz all over it.
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Sep 15, 2014 09:32
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The Animatrix is about a hundred million times better than Reloaded or Revolutions, and I say that as someone who likes Reloaded a lot and thinks Revolutions is okay. Final Flight of the Osiris is pretty much the only weak segment, and even it was okay at the time, it just hasn't aged that well. World Record is probably the absolute peak of the Matrix franchise.
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Sep 15, 2014 09:36
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Also there's only one Wachowski brother. Is one dead?
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Sep 15, 2014 09:53
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zVxTeflon posted:Is one dead? Not sure if you are being obtuse on purpose
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Sep 15, 2014 09:57
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Luminous Obscurity posted:The original script had the Matrix harnessing human minds to serve as the network for the machines. It was deemed to complex for audiences so they bumped us down to batteries, but the story still makes a bit more sense when you view it in that light. Oh man, the graveyard for the for the abandoned Hollywood/video game/otherwise great ideas due to stuff like this is such bullshit. Like if this would have been pitched as a book, for example, you could have had so much more interesting issues to deal with and actually go on with the premise, but when it's supposed to reach the big screen everything has to be squuezed into an digestable action mold for everybody. I'd take less kung fu and explosions for the exchange of actually developed world and ideas.
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Sep 15, 2014 13:01
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ManOfTheYear posted:The Matrix setting always bothered me because it's like this stoner college student idea: "Dude, what if were, like, inside a programming, man?" Add some anime and people jizz all over it. ManOfTheYear posted:Like if this would have been pitched as a book, for example, I had read Neuromancer as a kid, and had seen Johnny Mnemonic, so watching the first Matrix was a rather strange exercise for me. Random thought, though: the last movie came out around October/November 2003. December was Return of the King, a much more standard good vs. evil story. I'm not sure how large the overlap in fandoms was, but isn't it possible that some people found it easy to abandon this one because the conclusion to a much more successful one was just behind the corner?
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Sep 15, 2014 13:51
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precision posted:Morpheus ultimately ended up being wrong about pretty much everything, whether explicitly or implicitly. He was essentially the most clueless character in the whole trilogy. This seems like an exaggeration. He ended up being wrong about the nature of The One in relation to the human/machine conflict. But that conversation he has with Neo is basically accurate: it's not like the Matrix isn't a virtual world, system of control, etc.
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Sep 15, 2014 13:58
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meristem posted:If the Matrix had been pitched as a book, it would have been Neuromancer. A book that had been seminal. In 1984. Is it a good book and who wrote? How is it similiar to Matrix - or Johnny Mnemonic, I don't know anything about that movie - and how is it different? Also should I read it?
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Sep 15, 2014 15:22
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ManOfTheYear posted:Is it a good book and who wrote? How is it similiar to Matrix - or Johnny Mnemonic, I don't know anything about that movie - and how is it different? It is excellent. William Gibson wrote it. The main similarity is a virtual world which people can jack in too. Gibson wrote the short story Johnny Mneumonic. I disagree that it is that similar to the Matrix, as it is not post-apocalyptic in the literal sense of the Matrix. It is not about rebels fighting for the fate of all humanity, it is more of a heist story with the Matrix as a dramatic form of computer hacking. It is a bit similar to the Matrix up until the Red Pill, but the similarities are overstated. Absolutely read it. Edit: On the subject of Lana Wachowski: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bb2JakOmo Sprecherscrow fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 15:34
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Sprecherscrow posted:Absolutely read it. Bought it for kindle, reading soon. So basically it has the prototype idea of internet realized back in 1984? That's pretty cool.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:44
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Luminous Obscurity posted:
I've always thought that plot idea was interesting, especially considering the personal life of Lana (formerly Larry) Wachowski which I can only assume influenced that story. I'm so glad TV/other movies got over parodying/ripping off The Matrix though, it seemed like for a while in early 2000s everything had to do a bullet time bit. Not that it wasn't a cool as poo poo thing, the first time I saw it at the start of the movie I actually paused and played that scene again because I was so  at what just happened on my screen.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:45
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Sprecherscrow posted:It is excellent. William Gibson wrote it. The main similarity is a virtual world which people can jack in too. Gibson wrote the short story Johnny Mneumonic. I disagree that it is that similar to the Matrix, as it is not post-apocalyptic in the literal sense of the Matrix. It is not about rebels fighting for the fate of all humanity, it is more of a heist story with the Matrix as a dramatic form of computer hacking. It is a bit similar to the Matrix up until the Red Pill, but the similarities are overstated. Considering that the book ends with (holy poo poo ending spoilers) the unprecedented act of two AI gods being freed to do as they please and this is depicted as largely a good thing, there are some significant differences. Stylistically, though, the similarities are huge, what with hackers being romanticized as cowboys (before anyone even knew what a hacker was), pan-pacific blending of Asian and Western culture and economic influences, martial arts cyborgs, and Rastafarian religiosity. The only influences on The Matrix which come anywhere near Neuromancer are HR Giger and Blade Runner. The latter also goes for cyberpunk as a whole, but only even comes close because it's so high profile.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:02
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Blue Star posted:It's kinda funny how quickly the Matrix franchise became completely irrelevant as a cultural icon. The first movie was parodied endlessly for like three years. And the buzz for the sequels was crazy. In the build-up to the release of the sequels, there was so much hype about the Matrix as a franchise and how it was going to be the next Star Wars. Prequels, spin-offs, comics, video games, lunchboxes, the whole works. And then the movies actually came out and...whoosh. Nobody gave a poo poo about the Matrix anymore. To expand on this: one of the key reasons that the Matrix sequels are seen as crap is also one of the key reasons that the Star Wars prequels are seen as crap, and it's something that hasn't really been addressed just yet in this thread... "Transmedia." Remember that one? Remember transmedia and Henry Jenkins' convergence theory and all that other stuff which got so conclusively and resoundingly disproven throughout the 2000s (yet academics still cling to in 2014)? If not, it was the idea that to get the entire story, you wouldn't do so in just one medium. Just watching the movies wasn't enough. You also had to read the comicbooks, play the videogames, follow the ARGs, watch the cartoons, subscribe to the websites, and so on and so forth. This was how the Matrix sequels were presented, which was in sharp contrast to the original film. Turns out that's far more effort than audiences are willing to invest, and much of that stuff is now lost in the ether anyway, leaving us with movies that introduce concepts and then never follow-up on them (one example of many: everything with the Merovingian). My reaction upon seeing The Matrix Reloaded in the theater for the first time was "I'm not sure if I just saw a bad movie or not" because it introduced a lot of stuff then ended on "TO BE CONTINUED." Then The Matrix Revolutions came out and a whole bunch of that stuff was either never brought up at all or glossed over in passing in favor of additional stuff that hadn't been adequately presented within the films themselves. That the concepts being covered were no longer a borrowed amalgamation of Japanese animation, cyberpunk novels, and Hong Kong action cinema is another matter, but that's already been delved upon. ManOfTheYear posted:Did anybody watch Animatrix? I saw it when it came out (on motherfucking VHS bitches) but I don't know if it is any good, I was just a kid back then. The New Reneissance bits were horribly violent and disturbing in a bad way, like it didn't have anything to say and it wasn't cool or fun or stylish or anything, it was just torture porn which I think is the worst kind of anime there is.Like it's what a 14-year old would consider super edgy but it ends up being pretty disgusting. The art was cool I guess, but yeesh. gently caress that noise. The rest of it i don't remember. The Animatrix is fantastic and I bought the Blu-Ray set just to own that because I wanted that. It wasn't sold individually on that format, and even now that's still the easiest way to have it. It's one of the few anime anthologies derived from Western media that truly "works" because unlike those that followed (Batman: Gotham Knight, Halo: Legends, etc) there wasn't significant interference as far as what the creators could and couldn't do. You know it's a good anthology because there is no solid consensus regarding which is the best segment and which is the worst, though interestingly enough the segments mentioned so far in this thread as being ones people disliked--The Second Renaissance as well as Final Flight of the Osiris--are the ones the Wachowskis wrote themselves. EDIT: if you like the World Record segment of the Animatrix, you owe it to yourself to watch the animated movie Redline, from the same director. I suppose the closest live-action film equivalent I could make to it would be another film by the Wachowskis: Speed Racer. Daryl Surat fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 16:04
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To be fair, I dig everything about FFotO except the animation itself. That early 3DCG style just has not aged well at all (see also: Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within). And yeah, Redline (and Trava: Fist Planet, and everything else Takeshi Koike has been involved in) loving rules.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:12
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Hodgepodge posted:Considering that the book ends with (holy poo poo ending spoilers) the unprecedented act of two AI gods being freed to do as they please and this is depicted as largely a good thing, there are some significant differences. I take The Matrix as being a cyberpunkish world existed and this led to the creation of AI and then the apocalypse. It takes place in the ruins of what was cyberpunk. The statement that if it were pitched as a book, it would just be Neuromancer is ridiculous. Neuromancer was a huge influence, but not to the degree they are interchangeable as that statement implies.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:16
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Hodgepodge posted:The only influences on The Matrix which come anywhere near Neuromancer are HR Giger and Blade Runner. The latter also goes for cyberpunk as a whole, but only even comes close because it's so high profile. You're forgetting about Grant Morrison's The Invisibles. The broad premise was different, but the way the story beats unfolded was so close. Also much of the visual style of The Matrix seem cribbed from that comic. The Invisibles owes a lot to William Burroughs' cut-up trilogy, in turn.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:22
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Lord Krangdar posted:You're forgetting about Grant Morrison's The Invisibles. Premise was different, but the way the story beats unfolded was so close. Also much of the visual style of The Matrix seem cribbed from that comic. The Invisibles owes a lot to Burroughs', but it owes more to The Illuminatus! Trilogy. And reportedly the Wachowski's were passing out Invisibles TPBs on the set of The Matrix. Grant Morrison posted:It's really simple. The truth of that one is that design staff on The Matrix were given Invisibles collections and told to make the movie look like my books. This is a reported fact. The Wachowskis are comic book creators and fans and were fans of my work, so it's hardly surprising. I was even contacted before the first Matrix movie was released and asked if I would contribute a story to the website.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:26
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Sprecherscrow posted:It is excellent. William Gibson wrote it. The main similarity is a virtual world which people can jack in too. Gibson wrote the short story Johnny Mneumonic. I disagree that it is that similar to the Matrix, as it is not post-apocalyptic in the literal sense of the Matrix. It is not about rebels fighting for the fate of all humanity, it is more of a heist story with the Matrix as a dramatic form of computer hacking. It is a bit similar to the Matrix up until the Red Pill, but the similarities are overstated. Other great thing about Johnny Mneumonic: the film, which includes a roided up Henry Rollins playing a bleeding heart doctor, some sort of psychotic preacher assasin that looks like Thor, and a certain wispy, granite faced, immortal known as Keanu Reeves playing the titular hero.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:26
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Shageletic posted:Other great thing about Johnny Mneumonic: the film, which includes a roided up Henry Rollins playing a bleeding heart doctor, some sort of psychotic preacher assasin that looks like Thor, and a certain wispy, granite faced, immortal known as Keanu Reeves playing the titular hero. Sprecherscrow posted:I take The Matrix as being a cyberpunkish world existed and this led to the creation of AI and then the apocalypse. It takes place in the ruins of what was cyberpunk. The statement that if it were pitched as a book, it would just be Neuromancer is ridiculous. Neuromancer was a huge influence, but not to the degree they are interchangeable as that statement implies. Then I got to 'humans as batteries', and it just felt dumb. Eye candy, but dumb. Thanks for clarifying that this part had not been intended. Daryl Surat posted:"Transmedia."
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Sep 15, 2014 17:11
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meristem posted:And a dolphin. I think the critical difference is that you don't know who some of the characters/etc. in Revolutions and Reloaded even are unless you specifically played a video game also. With the MCU movies, you don't need to have read any Iron Man comics to "get" Iron Man, etc. It will be interesting to see how Star Wars goes though now that there's basically a new EU that will happen concurrently with the new movies.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:18
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meristem posted:You know, that's interesting. How would you relate this to the concept of the Marvel franchise and/or that new Star Wars expanded universe that Disney is planning? Because, apparently, especially with Star Wars, Disney is planning both animated series, books, 'main movies' and spinoffs - and it's apparently to be all on the same level of canon? There is a line between "mention something offhand that the characters acknowledge as important but not relevant to the current story being told" ("why, you slimy no-good swindler! You got a lot of guts coming here, after what YOU pulled!") and "mention something offhand because it's expected for the viewers to know about it." The second they start making movies where the film is structured such that it's assuming the audience knows the details of a character or situation that was not already established in a prior film is when they're sunk. Given that the rampant critical and commercial success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe has been born out of a strong rejection of transmedia narrative (to date, though given its ratings I don't think they'll start assuming people watched Agents of SHIELD prior to Avengers 2), I think that should be the model Star Wars should follow. The prequel trilogy by contrast moved the lion's share of the narrative/emotional conceit of the prequels--what caused the fall of the Jedi and the Republic?--over to the side story comics and cartoons which far fewer people had the time or inclination to track down. A fine example of how NOT to do it is the character "Kid" from the Matrix sequels. He is given no particular introduction as a character in the films, yet we keep getting scenes with him that are structured like we're supposed to care about his fate or understand his actions. This is because the assumption was made that fans would take it upon themselves to watch a direct-to-video animated cartoon detailing how this person awoke from the Matrix thanks to Neo. That's why when he gets his isolated moments and his "Neo, I BELIEVE" type lines, the audience is left going "who is this idiot and what is he talking about?" And yeah, his acting isn't so hot either. Daryl Surat fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 17:46
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Neo Rasa posted:concurrently
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Sep 15, 2014 17:46
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It's concordantly. Concordantly!!!
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Sep 15, 2014 17:48
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I forget a lot about what was explained in the last two movies. I think that, if it were not for the 'need' of humans as batteries, they would do nothing at all. The only time the machines didn't serve humans was when they were at war with them.
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Sep 15, 2014 19:39
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Luminous Obscurity posted:The original script had the Matrix harnessing human minds to serve as the network for the machines. It was deemed to complex for audiences so they bumped us down to batteries, but the story still makes a bit more sense when you view it in that light. Using the brain as part of the network pretty much fixes all the little plot niggles. Why are all the programs people? Because if your network is made entirely of brains, it makes sense to write programs that brains can run. How can Smith leave the Matrix? Same way he clones himself, overwriting brains. How can Neo bend reality? Because his brain is running the simulation around him. Morpheus' revelation isn't that there is no reality, but that reality is constructed internally and in concert with people around you. By accepting that things only exist in the way that you perceive them to you're then able to change those perceptions and break the rules. How can Neo explode sentinels and see Smith? Wi-fi.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:35
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Reloaded/Revolutions despite their issues are still guilty pleasure films for me. My biggest gripe with the films is the Neo/Trinity love story. It utterly falls flat both in the writing and the chemistry of the actors. I think it hurts the 3rd film worst obviously. Trinity's death scene does not at all elicit the emotional response the film is going for.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:18
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ApexAftermath posted:Reloaded/Revolutions despite their issues are still guilty pleasure films for me. My biggest gripe with the films is the Neo/Trinity love story. It utterly falls flat both in the writing and the chemistry of the actors. I think it hurts the 3rd film worst obviously. Trinity's death scene does not at all elicit the emotional response the film is going for. When I was in the cinema, opening night, someone down in front yelled "just shut up and die already!" If you shout in a cinema you're an arsehole, but sometimes you're a correct arsehole.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:27
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Nothing about the Star Wars prequels required or expected outside media. The closest relevant thing is Clone Wars but that was critically acclaimed and "showing Anakin's adventures in the Clone Wars" was never a major complaint.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:29
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I have heard that Anakin is a much better character if you've seen Clone Wars, especially in terms of his relationship with Obi-Wan. Also that Clone Wars owns. So there's that.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:35
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Before Attack of the Clones they set up a fake in universe internet site that had a bunch of news stuff about the war. It's where a lot of Count Dooku's backstory ended up.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:50
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