Freakbox posted:

Vargs posted:

this has inspired me to follow a career in gay ice wizardry

K. Waste posted:

See, that's where you're kind of off. True, Elsa doesn't do anything truly radical, like, say, destroying the monarchy and ushering in an anarcho-syndaclist kingdom united with the trolls, but because she's literally a witch whose very touch and essence 'freezes' the symbols of Judeo-Christian dominion, her assumption of the throne and Anna's rejection of 'Prince Charming' (not to mention the old, decrepit Duke) is a tacit rejection of a traditionalist patriarchal paradigm. This is in stark contrast with the usual Disney princess movie formula, where the most the 'strong female protagonist' can hope for is that she eventually sides with the 'truly good' patriarch and learns to see how awesome patriarchy is (see: Tarzan, Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, etc.)

The thing is, though, that just because Frozen is somewhat feminist doesn't make it a good movie. It's interesting that you see my definition of feminism as problematic because "it's impossible for any major studio movie to be feminist," because in general you should be actively skeptical of any superficially 'rebellious' or 'subversive' works that result from an "entrenched... patriarchal system." My definition of a feminist work is entirely concerned with politics, not with emotion. The problem with Frozen is that it is absolutely a feminist movie, but in a contemporary sense of commoditized feminism, where the primary concern is the 'self-esteem' of the woman and not the corruption of the paradigms that surround her.

Neither Elsa nor Anna are what I would call 'outwardly identifiable.' I.e. they aren't individuals who undertake tasks in personal defiance of 'the system' (like most male protagonists, who are often even amoralistic, though we sympathize with them because they stand against imperialism or corruption or what-have-you); but, rather, they are 'inwardly identifiable,' motivated by personal feelings of shame or inadequacy or boredom which push them towards personal realization. By emphasizing 'self-esteem' rather than the 'will to power,' Frozen stops being about unique individuals who possess some innate quality that makes them the hero, and instead becomes a vessel that invites the audience to pour its own insecurities and shame and boredom into in order to experience catharsis. You'll also see this sort of thing in this year's Divergent, where Shaine Woodley's character inexplicably decides to join the fascist army and becomes an expert warrior even though she has crippling low self-esteem and too much compassion to be a good fascist. In both cases, the filmmakers specifically construct characters that anybody could inwardly identify with, rather than characters who possess some innate strength or superiority that risks alienating people who desperately need to believe the reason they don't succeed is because of 'oppression' and not their own personal lack of talent. It's feminism without the discipline, in much the same way that right-wingers wax on and on about Christian moral values but rarely actually advocate total divestment from the state or suicidal pacifism. It's feminist in the same way that Marie Antoinette really was quite feminist for her time, but was still a corrupt classist whose head was on the block when the actual revolution came.

This is kind of way I have much more affinity for classic Disney princess films than the Disney Renaissance or even more recent stuff like Frozen. Something like Sleeping Beauty isn't feminist at all, but it actually manages to make a cogent social point that people often ignore was really significant for the time in which it was made. In Sleeping Beauty the implication is that if the drunkard kings and asexual fairies had just let Aurora gallivant in the forests of lust with a strange boy - to actively and outwardly pursue who desires as a young and relatively independent woman - they would not have literally led her into Maleficent's trap. The message of Sleeping Beauty is, "For the love of God, let the girl live a little, would ya?!"


Princess Mononoke is actually awesome because it's feminist in the most subtle way. Irontown is like a romantic vision of the Greek Amazons, except it's informed by none of the underlying misogyny. (There's no point, for instance, in which Ashitaka beds Eboshi because he's just 'such a man.') Miyazaki crafts a story in which the opposing forces are both powerful women (even the wolves are led by a matriarch) and it is never commented upon because it treats this fact as totally legitimate and irrelevant to larger ethical issues, such as ecological exploitation, spirituality and religion, etc. The female characters in Princess Mononoke are outwardly identifiable - they actively want things that have nothing to do with their 'touchy feelies' and pursue them without reservation because they believe it in their souls to be right.

In Frozen nobody actually cares about what the 'right' thing is. People are so consumed with themselves that the end becomes about controlling your own narcissism.

frozenpeas posted:

Emperor's New Groove owns.

Freakbox posted:

The little old man that gets thrown out the window is Piglet's Voice Actor.

Freakbox posted:

The little old man that gets thrown out the window is Piglet's Voice Actor.

TOILETLORD posted:

piglet's original voice actor was in twelve angry men.

Corek posted:

Well let's see what CD has to say-


Oh my.

01011001 posted:

i will never understand what the gently caress is wrong with those people