|
Why were Dave and Bret not on speaking terms at that time?
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 11:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 04:37 |
|
|
Bret didn't think an outsider like Meltzer should have any access to the innerworkings of the business. Of course that changed as soon as Bret needed him to make sure his story was told.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 12:34
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:Bret didn't think an outsider like Meltzer should have any access to the innerworkings of the business. Of course that changed as soon as Bret needed him to make sure his story was told. I was a little unclear on if that was the case, because it sounded more like they had fallen out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 15:26
|
|
|
Meltzer may have a different story, but in Bret's book he talked about how hard he worked to protect the business from the dirt sheets until after Montreal when he finally called up Meltzer to set the story straight (and presumably they have had some sort of relationship since then). Whether he really never talked to him before I can't say.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 15:41
|
|
|
I remember reading Bret's book and Bret clearly says Meltzer is "no friend of mine" and then he talks about reading from Meltzer's newsletter to Vince when it makes Bret look good. I didin't remember reading about any meeting between them so it always struck me as coming out of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 16:30
|
|
|
oldpainless posted:I remember reading Bret's book and Bret clearly says Meltzer is "no friend of mine" and then he talks about reading from Meltzer's newsletter to Vince when it makes Bret look good. I didin't remember reading about any meeting between them so it always struck me as coming out of nowhere. I seem to recall it being something like you always said you hated Meltzer when actually you were a source or something like that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2014 17:34
|
|
|
LordPants posted:I seem to recall it being something like you always said you hated Meltzer when actually you were a source or something like that. Bret always seemed like the stereotypical villain in movies or tv where the head guy would constantly string along everyone else and keep them down to benefit himself under the cover of "tradition" or some bullshit. I never liked Bret Hart, thought he was a mediocre wrestler who just happened to be part of one of the earliest and biggest families in the business at the time that used each other to springboard itself out of old carney redneck high school gyms and into fledgling regionalized TV when people were still trying to figure out this whole "cable" thing. Bret only ever looked out for himself, and if you read between the lines of his books it was obvious. Normally, I wouldn't care, because after all you got to look out for your self, especially in the wrestling business, but he always whined about tradition and "back in my day" philosophy bullshit and it just rubbed me as "old business men running an internet company but not wanting to change management styles from typewriter days"
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2014 03:15
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:Why were Dave and Bret not on speaking terms at that time? I'm pretty sure Dave being friends with Flair had something to do with it as well because Bret did not like Flair.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2014 03:40
|
|
|
I found it funny how the MNW episode ended with Vince raising Bret's hand, given that he kicked him in the groin immediately after the fade to black.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2014 04:03
|
|
|
Aku posted:Bret: "I mean we still had a great match, but I was just wondering what's the point?" Glad someone likes this as much as I do. Hall of Fame  by HBK
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2014 23:03
|
|
|
LordPants posted:I seem to recall it being something like you always said you hated Meltzer when actually you were a source or something like that. That jives with what I've read from other wrestlers when it came to Meltzer and other dirt sheets before the Internet finalized the end of formal kayfabe. Most wrestlers would just ignore Meltzer or act like he didn't exist while the guys who were leaking stuff on the side would go "Man, I would kick that Dave guy's rear end if he came to me looking for a source!" to cover themselves when something would leak.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 00:01
|
|
|
The way you know it's a work is Vince's cartoon-esque perfectly centered black eye during the "Bret screwed Bret" interview. As if Vince calmly stood there and let Bret line up a direct hit in the eye socket, as opposed to taking it somewhere else as he flinched or otherwise reacted. And both benefit because both appear to kind of be in the right while stirring up a lot of controversy (to this day).
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 05:55
|
|
|
Is the Vince McMahon who thought Batista would get a hero's welcome after winning the Rumble the same Vince McMahon that orchestrated this master plan of all master plans?
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 07:11
|
|
|
Why cookie Rocket posted:The way you know it's a work is Vince's cartoon-esque perfectly centered black eye during the "Bret screwed Bret" interview. As if Vince calmly stood there and let Bret line up a direct hit in the eye socket, as opposed to taking it somewhere else as he flinched or otherwise reacted. And both benefit because both appear to kind of be in the right while stirring up a lot of controversy (to this day). Amazing how they snuck a makeup artist into Vince's office and she created that black eye in just minutes without ever being seen and never betraying the conspiracy. Almost as amazing as both Bret and Vince keeping kayfabe under oath at a time Bret loathed Vince and was basically out of wrestling. Really cool of him to save face for Vince there. I mean who really cared about Owen anyway? Edit: Then again we should expect this level of betrayal from Bret. After all he let the British Bulldog pay $150,000 to get out of his WWF contract in the aftermath of Montreal just to keep up the work. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
Animal-Mother posted:Is the Vince McMahon who thought Batista would get a hero's welcome after winning the Rumble the same Vince McMahon that orchestrated this master plan of all master plans? This really is the failing of most conspiracy theories - the fact that in order to pull them off, you'd have to be some Machiavellian Adrian Veidt-type who thinks of all the angles and has every single possible avenue of discovery covered. Vince got lucky, in that the events unfolded in the way that they did and he was smart enough to use them to his advantage. Lucky as well that they had someone there who was about to get over in an unprecedented fashion to pick up the ball and run with it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 07:47
|
|
|
Memento posted:This really is the failing of most conspiracy theories - the fact that in order to pull them off, you'd have to be some Machiavellian Adrian Veidt-type who thinks of all the angles and has every single possible avenue of discovery covered. Vince got lucky, in that the events unfolded in the way that they did and he was smart enough to use them to his advantage. Lucky as well that they had someone there who was about to get over in an unprecedented fashion to pick up the ball and run with it. You're insane McMahon! Too late, I already created the Mr McMahon character 30 minutes ago!
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 08:13
|
|
|
Honestly, I still think the root of all the Screwjob issues isn't the Screwjob itself, but Owen. Because Bret left on such bad terms, Owen got left high and dry, and quite possibly got given a gimmick that led to his death (it's contested whether Owen had the Blue Blazer return placed on him, or if it was his own idea). I really think that if one little thing had gone differently and Owen had never been up in those rafters, Bret would have gotten over the Screwjob in half the time, if not 1/3, and I don't think he'd be taking jabs at Shawn in those DVD's. It's all misplaced Owen grief and the fact Bret probably blames himself for Owen's death. That being said, Bret deserves 1/10th of the blame for events in Montreal, AT MOST. The rest is all on Vince and Shawn. Shawn for being a drug-addled insecure (and hence insanely overcompensating) egomaniac and Vince for being a paranoid control freak who assumed everyone else played by his rules. That's really what strikes me about Vince when it comes to his role in the Screwjob: he completely exposes how he views the world and the fact that he's utterly certain anyone else with any credibility must think EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 08:32
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Amazing how they snuck a makeup artist into Vince's office and she created that black eye in just minutes without ever being seen and never betraying the conspiracy. Almost as amazing as both Bret and Vince keeping kayfabe under oath at a time Bret loathed Vince and was basically out of wrestling. Really cool of him to save face for Vince there. I mean who really cared about Owen anyway? What interview or shoot was it where it was implied, if not basically said, that Vince knew full well that Bret was going to punch him, and let him do it willingly. He saw it as a fair punishment. But then Vince likes punishing himself for stuff, usually publicly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 08:57
|
|
|
DrVenkman posted:What interview or shoot was it where it was implied, if not basically said, that Vince knew full well that Bret was going to punch him, and let him do it willingly. He saw it as a fair punishment. But then Vince likes punishing himself for stuff, usually publicly. Vince's story at the time was he gave Bret a free shot although supposedly witnesses contradict that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 09:05
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Vince's story at the time was he gave Bret a free shot although supposedly witnesses contradict that. Yeah I heard that either it was out of the blue, or that Vince expected it. Isn't it in Michaels book that Vince totally oversold it to make Hart look better? But then Michaels book and interviews he's given completely contradict what footage there was of that day anyway. I'm not surprised if "Oh we totally knew Hart would punch him" is something that Vince wanted to make part of the official story. Can't have him looking weak now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 09:59
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Vince's story at the time was he gave Bret a free shot although supposedly witnesses contradict that. Why is this still a thing? Wrestlers, especially main events have huge egos and especially in the Hart Family who saw themselves as the "old gaurd" and didn't like the direction of the business. Bret said as much in many of his whiny books and DVDs. How hard is it to believe that Vince pulled one on Bret, Bret went to the back to confront him, Vince wasn't able to calm him down and in the heat of the moment Bret punched Vince in the face? Its not that hard to believe and is the simplest explanation. Vince being Vince, after he cooled down just went "screw it, i'll take the black eye and not press charges because I don't want to add anymore fire to the pot and its a fair to let him get a hit in" After time, Vince morphed it into what it is today. BigT fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Sep 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 15:56
|
|
|
DrVenkman posted:People still think Kevin Sullivan killed Chris Benoit. People are always just not going to believe that something happened the way it happened. He had to do it, Benoit was from a community, after all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
Why cookie Rocket posted:The way you know it's a work is Vince's cartoon-esque perfectly centered black eye during the "Bret screwed Bret" interview. As if Vince calmly stood there and let Bret line up a direct hit in the eye socket, as opposed to taking it somewhere else as he flinched or otherwise reacted. And both benefit because both appear to kind of be in the right while stirring up a lot of controversy (to this day). Vince is definitely the kind of person that'd take a punch without blinking.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 21:05
|
|
|
Kevin Sullivan killed my cousin Owen.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2014 23:07
|
|
|
Wasn't there some kind of deal Vince made with Bret after the punch and after he destroyed a bunch of (probably expensive) TV gear outside the ring? It might have been in Bret's book.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 01:06
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:Wasn't there some kind of deal Vince made with Bret after the punch and after he destroyed a bunch of (probably expensive) TV gear outside the ring? It might have been in Bret's book. I love Bret but he takes the business way too seriously. I guess his main problem is that Stu came from a legit shoot background and was less of a carny than nearly every other promoter out there. Too much of that probably rubbed off on Bret.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 12:54
|
|
|
also his brothers pissed in his mouth
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 13:02
|
|
|
St Evan Echoes posted:I'm almost certain there's nothing in Bret's book about that. I don't think they spoke between Montreal and the day of Owen's funeral. The "Bret took wrestling too seriously" thing is a bit of a catch 22. While I do agree that yeah, him viewing it more as show business vs. deathly serious would be better for his psyche and well being...he most likely wouldn't have been nearly as successful without that view. I also find it hard to fault a guy for being a mark for himself when most wrestlers are exactly that type of person due to the nature of the business. I think WWE would be better overall right now if more guys cared about the wins and losses.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 15:24
|
|
|
Everyone was marks for themselves back in the day, because this poo poo mattered. HBK bitched about finishes way more than Bret ever did. Dusty booked himself to be the top guy, and refused to do jobs at times. Don't even get started looking into Hogan.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
I'm not upset with Bret for exercising creative control on his way out because he bargained for it and he only had it at the time because McMahon didn't want to honor their original contract in the first place. If you're a control freak like McMahon, don't promise people creative control.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 15:37
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:Everyone was marks for themselves back in the day, because this poo poo mattered. HBK bitched about finishes way more than Bret ever did. Dusty booked himself to be the top guy, and refused to do jobs at times. Don't even get started looking into Hogan. I'm most likely wrong, I'm sure there are probably a million cases of HBK and Hogan holding a grudge for years on end
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 16:08
|
|
|
St Evan Echoes posted:I agree with you totally but I get the impression that Bret is still bitter about Montreal almost 20 years later, while the other guys you mention are more able to brush stuff off after the fact as the carny bullshit it is. Are there any other modern-day examples of someone getting hosed over like Bret did? Like the guy had a contract with the company he had been in almost his entire adult life, and main eventers in WWF ended up working closely with Vince. Vince ends up reneging on the contract and screwing Bret over on live PPV in front of the world to see. Bret went back to work with WWE and seemingly put it behind him, I'm not sure what more he can do to show he's not bitter over Montreal anymore.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 16:11
|
|
|
St Evan Echoes posted:I agree with you totally but I get the impression that Bret is still bitter about Montreal almost 20 years later, while the other guys you mention are more able to brush stuff off after the fact as the carny bullshit it is. what a jerk for feeling bitter about being betrayed by a boss you consider a personal friend to your most hated enemy in the most visible and public way possible all concerning a profession that was basically treated like a religion by your entire family. what a mark.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:Are there any other modern-day examples of someone getting hosed over like Bret did? Probably literally ever person who had a job from 1998-2014 has experienced the exact same thing as Bret, except they didn't get paid millions and also didn't get to punch their boss.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 16:56
|
|
|
i dont think my boss ever made me lose the title to shawn michaels actually
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
when you really think about it didn't we all lose the title to shawn michaels in front of a "hometown" audience 4000 kilometers away from our actual hometown when the tech bubble burst
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 17:02
|
|
|
St Evan Echoes posted:I love Bret but he takes the business way too seriously. I guess his main problem is that Stu came from a legit shoot background and was less of a carny than nearly every other promoter out there. Too much of that probably rubbed off on Bret. stu did enjoy and still does enjoy cruelly stretching the gently caress out of people, so if you grew up with that poo poo, you'd probably be hardcore about the business too. it's like imagine if bob roop was your daddy and everyday he put you in a sugar hold because wrasslin is real, damnit
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 17:32
|
|
|
Johanns Molemann posted:stu did enjoy and still does enjoy cruelly stretching the gently caress out of people, so if you grew up with that poo poo, you'd probably be hardcore about the business too. it's like imagine if bob roop was your daddy and everyday he put you in a sugar hold because wrasslin is real, damnit Stu enjoys it from beyond the grave.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 17:41
|
|
|
hahahaha i didnt even know he died friggin 11 years ago
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 19:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 04:37 |
|
|
AmbassadorFriendly posted:I'm not upset with Bret for exercising creative control on his way out because he bargained for it and he only had it at the time because McMahon didn't want to honor their original contract in the first place. If you're a control freak like McMahon, don't promise people creative control. I'd be really curious to read the "creative control" clause language in both WCW and WWE contracts. I work with technical consulting contracts all day and the idea of committing to something as vague as "creative control" is what my nightmares are made of. I would love to know the way it's defined, any limitations or constraints, etc. Could Bret Hart decide to go into a feud with whoever he wanted? Could he start wearing zubas? Could he have declared that he was actually a Venusian shapeshifter, and start doing a gimmick where he'd dive under the ring and Koko B. Ware would emerge as his "other form"?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2014 20:02
|
|