M:tG: The Brewhaus (THS/KTK): Deck Thinning Doesn't Matter

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > M:tG: The Brewhaus (THS/KTK): Deck Thinning Doesn't Matter

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YeehawMcKickass: Jan 2, 2003; WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS

Welcome to Year Four of the Brewhaus! With the Commander people banished to their own thread, I the only thing I can start harping on is the topic of deck thinning. I go over this in the manabase, but it DOESN'T MATTER. The math has been run, the science performed, and the results are that your thinning might result in one extra non-land card over the course of five plus rounds. Fetches are good for shuffling, putting stuff in the graveyard, and they're ok mana fixing.

Also, NO MORE SPHINX'S REVELATION!

Click here to go to the Main Discussion Thread! Headed by BJPaskoff
Click here to go to the Limited Thread! Headed by Vanilla Bison
Click here to go to the Eternal Formats Thread!
Click here to go to the Commander Thread!

Some important things to note before you post your deck:

DO include what you're building your deck for, be it casual, FNM, or a Grand Prix. Also, mention if this is for a specific format (Standard, Extended, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Commander, Pauper, Theme Deck, etc.).
DO mention if your deck has a budget associated with it.
DO READ THIS ARTICLE BY CONLEY WOODS! Your deck and some of your choices are going to be questioned, and you're likely to feel insulted. We're not out to hurt your feelings and make you go all on us. Even some of the best deck builders get their work blown up by other people. You might even be ignored, don't take it personally.
If you're searching online for cards, I can't recommend using Wizard's website, Gatherer. It tends to be slow and difficult to use. Magiccards.info is a better bet.
For Sixty-Card constructed decks, please try to use deckstats or tappedout's deck building tools, and use the full embed code if you can.
For Commander/EDH decks, you can post them, but there's a thread for it now. Use only a link to deckstats/tappedout if you do decide to post it here. If your deck is on MODO, go ahead and give us a screen shot of it.

Enough with the notes, on to some of the deck building basics.

Before you build:

Decide what your deck's win condition or conditions will be. Try to have a plan B when you can.
Decide how your deck will achieve that goal.
For competitive play, never exceed the 60-card minimum (99+general in commander).
Don't be afraid to net deck. It's not a bad thing. If there's a pre existing deck out there that does what you want to do, feel free to copy it. It's likely going to be optimized already. Star City Games keeps a list of all of the top decks from its events, as does Wizards in their event section.
If you don't want to build a pre-existing deck but want to use its archetype, still view the deck lists. That will provide an excellent starting point to build your mana base. This is the start of what's called, "Going Rouge".
Speaking of the Internet, consider using one of the deck building tools out there, such as https://www.deckstats.net and https://www.tappedout.net. Also, use something like magiccards.info to search out cards you may want to use. See the second post of the main discussion thread for more online resources.

Now that I've mentioned them...

Deck Archetypes

Aggressive; Hit them hard and fast. If you haven't won by turn four or five, you've probably already lost. Historically, these are Red, Green, and Black; but can exist in all colors. Examples include Red Deck Wins. Pure aggro decks tend to have low amounts of land, sometimes as few as 19-20 and rarely have utility lands.
Stompy: Rides the border of Aggro and Midrange. Usually appears to be an aggro shell with buffs. Examples would be SOM/INN R/G Aggro (because of swords buffs and having a bit of a late game) and Tempered Steel. Land count in Stompy decks tend to hover in the 21-23 range, sometimes include a couple of utility lands, and will often include some Ramp elements (usually mana producing creatures).
Midrange: A variable type of deck that can play the aggro role against control, or the control rol against aggro. Jund circa ALA/ZEN standard is a good recent example of midrange. Land count for midrange decks tends to hang in the 22-25 area with a decent amount of utility lands.
Control: Built to take the game long and outlast an opponent, usually through mass removal, card advantage and counter spells. This type of deck usually runs few actual threats. Historically, these decks are Blue based with White or Black. U/W control from last season and The Deck are examples of control. Control decks will run 25+ lands, and will include numerous utility lands.
Tempo-Control: This deck type blurs the line between Aggro and control by using tempo cards like Vapor Snag and other unsummon variants along with small, evasive beaters and other value cards to control the game. Recent examples being Caw-Blade from ZEN/SOM and Delver from SOM/INN
Ramp: Decks built to hit a certain point on their mana curve as fast a possible (ramping up through land search or mana producing creatures) then crushing their opposition before they can react to their massive threats. This archetype can suffer with out of order draws, (not drawing land search sorceries or mana producing creatures early, etc.) but tends the be extremely explosive. Valakut decks in late ALA/Zen and early ZEN/SOM and the various Wolf Run variants from SOM/INN are examples. Very rarely do Ramp decks run less than 25 lands, with upwards of 28 not being unheard of.
Combo: While combo isn't hugely prevalent in standard, it's quite frequent in modern, legacy, and vintage. These decks are generally non-interactive, and sometimes do nothing, until they go and win in one fell swoop. Examples inclue thopter/depths (which could generate a 20/20 flying indestructible on turn two), hive mind, and the first major combo Channel/Fireball.

Next up, Building!

While you build:

Remember that consistent decks with a clear plan to victory (and a backup plan) win the most.
Mono-colored or two-colored decks tend to be the most consistent and least vulnerable to disruption. You can fan out to a third if the format's mana base allows it (RTR/THS manabases aren�t expected to be able to support three color aggro decks, true control seems to be likely if a bit shaky.)
You generally want somewhere around 22 to 26 lands in your deck, depending on format or archetype. Your Mana Base should generally skew similar to the amount of colored mana in your spells. More on this after this list.
Give this article by Alexander Shearer a read and check out the spreadsheet.
Be mindful of your Mana Curve. As an example, if you're playing an aggressive deck with the goal of simply going at your opponent, your mana curve should terminate at a converted mana cost of NO HIGHER than four and the majority of your spells hovering around the CMC 2 range. There's no hard and fast rule for what a mana curve should look like. This is the 2010 Worlds top standard deck, note that the mana curve has a huge amount of things to do at CMC 1 and 2

I can't stress enough how much you have to consider your mana base.
Your forseeable manabase for Theros/Kahns Standard

Basic Lands: Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountian, Forest.

Temples: Duals that enter the field tapped, upon entry, you get to Scry 1 (look at the top card of your library and choose to keep it there or put it on the bottom of your library). Fairly cheap lands price wise, and the scry effect is incredibly handy for the cost of entering the battlefield tapped.

Fetchlands: A known quantity in older formats, these lands border with the Alpha duals in terms of best lands ever. One of these in hand is one land of the two types in hand, as needed. In older formats, they're used for shuffling your deck, filling your graveyard, or Landfall triggers. In the current standard they primarily serve the graveyard filling role to enable delve. And they're pretty good mana fixing, don't forget that. There is a deck thinning component with these, but it's statistically insignificant. If you post that you're running these for deck thinning only, I'm going to mock you relentlessly.

Functional Refuge reprints: The full cycle of 10 enemy and ally duals in Kahns. They enter the battlefiled tapped and gain you a life. THESE ARE YOUR BUDGET GO-TO DUALS. They're common and in plentiful supply.

Clan Tri-Lands: The wedge versions of the Shards of Alara tri lands. They enter the battlefield tapped and produce one mana of any of three colors. Being uncommon, they shouldn't be hard to get a hold of.

Painlands: Rare lands that enter the battlefield untapped and can be tapped for colorless, or one of two colors of mana from an enemy pair at the cost of 1 Damage. These and the M10 checklands tend to be the standard baseline for dual lands, though R&D tends to prefer the checks because of new players.

Mana Confluence: A functional reprint of city of brass that gets you one mana of any color at the cost of Paying 1 life.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: This card has some weird deckbuilding restrictions, due to it's legendary supertype. If you're playing black, you want to include this automatically. The trick is you probably don't want more than two in your deck, because multiples of this are pretty awful. It's worth noting that this is NOT a swamp anywhere but when it's on the battlefield. You can't search for it with a Fetch or Evolving Wilds.

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: Playing a monocolor deck that gets a bunch of permanents out? Want a ton of mana? You want this card.

Evolving Wilds: Significantly inferior to the fetches, as whatever basic they search out comes in tapped despite being able to grab any basic. Still fills the graveyard, and is an ok budget option.

Darksteel Citadel: An indestructable land that produces colorless. Primarly in standard to enable certian decks in M15 limited.

Radiant Fountian: Want some life? Here you go. The Refuge reprints are better, but if you really want two life, this is where you go.

Sliver Hive: Added to M15 along with the slivers to give the slivers decks a good oomph for the Super Standard we just came out of. There's practically no reason to run this card in a standard deck, but incredibly useful for kitchen table or EDH fun.

Tomb of the Spirit Dragon: Primarily a limited card, Auto-include in the all morph/colorless deck, but not likely to be useful in standard.

Unknown Shores: Primiraly a limited card. If you really need to fix your mana, this can do it but at the cost of tapping two lands to get you the color you want.

After it's built:

Test it out a little bit! You can even use the hand generators on deckstats.net to get a feel for what kind of opening hands you're going to run into. Goldfishing (solitare play) helps as well, but if you have friends or Magic Online, go to it.
If the deck seems like it might have some merit, post it here! Use the deckstats.net or tappedout.net builders. (I recommend deckstats, as it will give you the proper BB code with links to individual cards on magiccards.info as well as all the mana curve data and even pricing.)
Take the advice you get here, and make your first tweak. Only change one thing about a deck at a time so you understand the changes you've made function in relation to your deck's previous incarnation.
Test it out again! Then continue to make your changes.
Play your deck against every kind of deck you can. If you're going to a tournament, build a gauntlet of expected decks and play as many games as possible against those decks.
Don't forget your sideboard!
And don't forget to play post-sideboarded games!

One other thing to note when you're building your deck is that there's a good chance you're going to have a "pet card" you want to try to shoehorn into every deck you build. For Conley Woods and myself, it's Acidic Slime. Be aware of this card and make absolutely SURE it fits into your deck.

Alternatively, the OP of this MTG Salvation thread does an excelent job of going over all of this.

Some questions you may ask:

Can I post the full list of my Commander/EDH deck?
Use a link to deckstats/tappedout for your Commander/EDH Decks
DON�T POST FULL LISTS OF COMMANDER/EDH DECKS
Or just post it in the Commander thread.

How many of each card do I want in my deck?
Here's a good way of looking at it (this excludes basic lands):
Four of a specific card: I want this card in my opening hand and/or want to see as many copies of it as possible.
Three of a specific card: Having this in my opening hand isn't bad, but I generally only want to see one or two copies of it during the course of a game (Legendary Creatures, Planeswalkers).
Two of a specific card: I'd like to see this card on occasion, but never really want it in my opening hand.
One of a specific card: I NEVER want to see more than one of this card or something I'll be searching for with a tutor effect or drawing through massive amounts of draw. (Singletons are often a deck win condition in vintage or legacy, and frequently a win condition in a combo deck.)

Why does my deck keep getting slaughtered by this other type of deck?
Your deck may have an inherent weakness to that deck. As an example, a creature ramp deck can be stalled out horribly by a mono-red burn deck. A deck with no flyers can be completely out of luck if your opponent drops a large flyer like a Baneslayer Angel. That mono-red burn deck has a huge weakness to life gain and shroud/hexproof creatures. You have three options to deal with this. First, you can make main deck changes. Second, you can dedicate slots in your sideboard to shore up this match. Third, you can just accept that your deck is bad against that type of deck.

What's a sideboard?
That's 15 extra cards you can use to modify your deck between games in a tournament. You can use this to solidify your deck against a bad match up, or transform your deck into something else. It's a good idea to consider your sideboard options in parallel to your main 60.

How do I tune my deck for my local metagame, what about my sideboard?
Well, thats a bit of a doozy and specialized. You'd need to tell us what your expected metagame is, then we can help you.

I'm running a Mono-color deck and would like to include Fetch Lands for deck thinning. Is this a good idea?
The short answer is No. The long answer is, "for purely deck thinning purposes, it's not a good idea since the life cost for the deck thinning effect is too high." That said, there are OTHER reasons to use Fetch lands in any kind of deck.
A. You need lands in the graveyard for something
2. You need a shuffle effect (for ponder, brainstorm, other things that require certain cards on top)
D. Landfall triggers (from Zendikar and Worldwake)
eff. Mana Fixing in multi-color decks.

I want to build a mill de--
Stop right there. There's something you need to know about Mill decks. Outside of limited, there's only ever been ONE time a Mill deck has been constructed tournament competitive, and that was only because the metagame had developed into numerous slow decks. Mill decks are essentially slow burn decks, but instead of having to do 20 damage to your opponent, you have to do somewhere around FIFTY THREE DAMAGE while simultaneously trying to ignore you dwindling life total. If you want to build one, have fun, but you're going to be at a disadvantage outside of a casual FNM.

Why did you rip my awesome deck to shreds? It was the best thing in the world! You have no idea what you're talking about!
While there's a decent chance that someone commenting on your deck may not have the best deck building sense (including me), the same holds true for you. Also, I warned you this would happen, and even gave you this link earlier. Put your ego aside, we're trying to help.

Hay guyz! I just got given a bunch of new cards from someone and I want to post my deck list. Should I do it?"
JerryLee put it pretty succinctly in the first thread, but I'll sum it up here: Probably not. If your card pool is really tiny what you can put together isn't going to be of much interest to us, and you're likely to be ignored. If you want to list out a fully fleshed out deck (include cards you want to acquire for it) BASED ON what you currently have, that's fine. If you want to save some money, you can buy from other goons!

My deck didn't get commented on. :smith:

This is likely to happen for any number of reasons. More often than not this tends to happen for Legacy and Vintage decks posted, but don�t worry if you want to talk older formats, Go here and post the list. Another reason your deck may have been ignored is because you didn't specify what format it's for and/or your budget. You could have also posted in the middle of a fury of decks being posted and it was just missed. Don't take it personally, this just a single thread in a sub-forum of a sub-forum that's doesn't exactly have a huge amount of traffic.

That said, If you want to get competitive, don't hesitate to go to Star City Games top deck lists from their open series and use that as a place to start on the type of deck you want to use.

I'd like to remind everyone to INCLUDE WHAT FORMAT YOU'RE BUILDING YOUR DECK FOR! The format a deck is built for is key to getting help.

If you'd like to get a hold of me in regards to something with the thread, talk Wizard Poker Deck building, or berate me for being a jackass, feel free to PM me or use the contact information in my profile. I also have an account on MODO at LLJKYeehawMcK, but I'm not on with any regularity.

Happy Brewing.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 18:25

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:59

YeehawMcKickass: Jan 2, 2003; WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS

Entropic's Deck: Butcher Ascendancy

//Lands
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Caves of Koilos
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Spells
3 Crackling Doom
3 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Mardu Ascendancy
3 Mardu Charm

//Creatures
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Mogis's Marauder
2 Tormented Hero

//Sideboard
3 Crippling Blight
2 Coordinated Assault
3 Mogis, God of Slaughter
1 Crackling Doom
4 Chief of the Edge
2 Arc Lightning

Display deck statistics

superstepa's Deck: Stop Hitting Yourself

//Main
4 Daring Thief
4 Hour of Need
4 Hypnotic Siren
21 Island
4 Negate
3 Omenspeaker
4 Retraction Helix
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Triton Shorestalker
4 Triton Tactics
4 Voyage's End

Display deck statistics

Soothing Cacophony's Deck: Mardu Control

//Spells
4 End Hostilities
3 Mardu Charm
3 Banishing Light
4 Crackling Doom
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Utter End
3 Read the Bones

//Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

//Creatures
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram

//Land
4 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Nomad Outpost
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Battlefield Forge

//Sideboard
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Erase
1 Zurgo Helmsmasher
2 Suspension Field
1 Murderous Cut

Display deck statistics

Deofuta's Jeskai Tempo deck (Once again, a goon gets it close)
//Lands
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
4 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph

//Spells
4 Arc Lightning
2 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Suspension Field

//Creatures
4 Mantis Rider
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Narset, Enlightened Master

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Anger of the Gods
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 3 Disdainful Stroke
SB: 2 Banishing Light
SB: 3 Magma Spray
SB: 2 Treasure Cruise

Shovelmint's Sub-Sligh
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Satyr Hoplite
4 Akroan Crusader
4 Foundry Street Denizen

4 Hammerhand
4 Titan Strength
4 Dragon Mantle
4 Coordinated Assault

4 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike

16 Mountain (8 red fetches, and 8 mountains if you're sassy, may not be right)

Sideboard:
4 Rouse the Mob
4 Magma Spray
2 Flamespeaker's Will
2 Hall of Triumph
2 Circle of Flame
1 Mountain

I promised Dungeon Ecology I'd move his deck over to the new thread:
Sultai Delve:

Creatures:
3x Elvish Mystic
2x Necropolis Fiend
2x Nemesis of Mortals
2x Nyx Weaver
2x Prognostic Sphinx
2x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4x Sylvan Caryatid

Sorcery:
2x Commune with the Gods
1x Endless Obedience
1x Treasure Cruise

Instant:
1x Hero's Downfall
4x Murderous Cut

Artifact:
2x Whip of Erebos
2x Bow of Nylea

Planeswalker:
1x Garruk, Apex Predator

Land:
8x Forest
6x Swamp
3x Island
1x Dismal Backwater
1x Thornwood Falls
2x Jungle Hollows
2x Temple of Malady

And when bshman posts, his avatar has a link to MARDUKING.

YeehawMcKickass fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 28, 2014

# ? Sep 28, 2014 18:26

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

I'm loving the new thread title.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 18:28

YeehawMcKickass: Jan 2, 2003; WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS

AATREK CURES KIDS posted:

I'm loving the new thread title.

I knew people would love it.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 18:40

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

Deck: Mardu Aggro

//Main
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Butcher of the Horde
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mardu Charm
4 Mardu Skullhunter
2 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Swamp
4 Tormented Hero
4 Ulcerate
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 War-Name Aspirant

//Sideboard
1 Butcher of the Horde
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Mardu Ascendancy
2 Mardu Charm
4 Ride Down
4 Thoughtseize

Display deck statistics

This manabase is REALLY ambitious. If it can be relied on I think this is superior to most one or two-color aggro decks but that's a huge if, and I may end up having to cut to two colors (probably some boring B/W horseshit). As a primarily aggro player though I live and die by my gigantic balls and therefore must at least try to pull this off. Considering cutting Mardu Charm for Crackling Doom.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 18:58

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

Here's the list of Murder Kings I'm currently playing (no Thoughtseize or Bloodstained Mire for financial reasons, based on bhsman's build):

24 Lands
4x Nomad Outpost
2x Temple of Silence
2x Temple of Triumph
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Plains
4x Swamp
4x Mountain

12 Creatures
2x Tymaret, the Murder King
2x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Akroan Horse

24 Spells
3x Purphoros God of the Forge
2x Tormenting Voice
4x Banishing Light
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Mardu Charm
1x Empty the Pits
2x Utter End
2x Murderous Cut
2x Ajani Steadfast
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard
3x Despise
4x Anger of the Gods
2x Utter End
2x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Tormenting Voice
2x Hero's Downfall

Questions:

Do I have enough black sources to support Hero's Demise and Empty the Pits? Of course Urborg is very helpful with getting me all the Swamps I want.
Should I be playing Liliana Vess and/or Sarkhan Dragonspeaker in this deck? Liliana gets tons of value and finds whatever I need to end the game, whereas Sarkhan is better at protecting himself and can win the game on his own.
Is Anger of the Gods better than Drown in Sorrow? I'm not sure if there are any decks for me to worry about with significant numbers of 3-toughness creatures, unless you count killing Sylvan Caryatids.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:02

bhsman: Feb 10, 2008; by exmarx

YeehawMcKickass posted:

And when bshman posts, his avatar has a link to MARDUKING.

Well now I pretty much have to.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:03

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

bhsman posted:

Well now I pretty much have to.

I always post on the first page of a new megathread, because I'm exceptionally lazy and it makes it easier to find all my posts in the megathread later.

But since you're here now, what do you think of the manabase in my build of Murder Kings? I'm also playing 4 total Nyx-Fleece Ram since I expect to see a lot of aggro.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:04

bhsman: Feb 10, 2008; by exmarx

AATREK CURES KIDS posted:

But since you're here now, what do you think of the manabase in my build of Murder Kings? I'm also playing 4 total Nyx-Fleece Ram since I expect to see a lot of aggro.

Nyx-Fleece is perfectly fine and helps give the deck longevity against Aggro decks in addition to Akroan Horse. As for the mana base, I would need to look at the costs of all the other cards in the deck but it seems...overly neat? I'd punch the deck into TappedOut or something and tinker with the numbers, unless it's fine as-is.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:13

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

bhsman posted:

Nyx-Fleece is perfectly fine and helps give the deck longevity against Aggro decks in addition to Akroan Horse. As for the mana base, I would need to look at the costs of all the other cards in the deck but it seems...overly neat? I'd punch the deck into TappedOut or something and tinker with the numbers, unless it's fine as-is.

Overly neat, as in not enough experimental cards? I am thinking about trying Liliana and Sarkhan before Game Day. I've been goldfishing with it, so far it's hard to tell how good Purphoros is. The curve does work pretty well, although on turn 5 I'm usually just casting a second four-drop.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:24

bhsman: Feb 10, 2008; by exmarx

AATREK CURES KIDS posted:

Overly neat, as in not enough experimental cards? I am thinking about trying Liliana and Sarkhan before Game Day. I've been goldfishing with it, so far it's hard to tell how good Purphoros is. The curve does work pretty well, although on turn 5 I'm usually just casting a second four-drop.

I was referring to the 4-4-4 split of R-W-B mana.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:26

Mercury Crusader: Apr 20, 2005; You know they say that all demons are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Pyro Jack and you can see that statement is not true, hee-ho!

YeehawMcKickass posted:

the only thing I can start harping on is the topic of deck thinning. I go over this in the manabase, but it DOESN'T MATTER. The math has been run, the science performed, and the results are that your thinning might result in one extra non-land card over the course of five plus rounds.

Nooooo, my Old World MTG perceptions!!!

I really want to build something around Mardu colors but it looks like most decks have differing directions on how they want to conduct themselves throughout the game. I just don't want to play anything with blue or green (again) is all, so I'll be lurking around seeing how things go and work from there.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:35

neetengie: Jul 17, 2013; Shittiest taste in anime and video games.

Mercury Crusader posted:

Nooooo, my Old World MTG perceptions!!!

I really want to build something around Mardu colors but it looks like most decks have differing directions on how they want to conduct themselves throughout the game. I just don't want to play anything with blue or green (again) is all, so I'll be lurking around seeing how things go and work from there.

How bout Mardu Walkers?

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:36

Valicious: Aug 16, 2010

Deck: Bad Decisions

//Main
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
1 Shivan Reef
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Mana Confluence
4 Rattleclaw Mystic

4 Sylvan Caryatid

4 Kiora's Follower

4 Retraction Helix

4 Dragon Mantle

3 Twinflame

4 Jeskai Ascendancy

3 Dig Through Time

4 Commune with the Gods

2 Astral Cornucopia

1 Evanescent Intellect

2 Nylea's Presence

//Sideboard
2 Anger of the Gods

4 Swan Song

3 Crippling Chill

4 Circle of Flame

1 Restock

1 Aegis of the Gods

Display deck statistics

Thoughts? I'm thinking of taking this to States this weekend.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:37

bhsman: Feb 10, 2008; by exmarx

neetengie posted:

How bout Mardu Walkers?

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I went 4-1 with Rabble Red at FNM, with my sole loss coming from a Mardu control deck that ran a singleton Zurgo Helmsmasher.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:37

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

bhsman posted:

I was referring to the 4-4-4 split of R-W-B mana.

I tested a few configurations before settling on that. The deck needs black and white mana the most, but the 4 temples all produce white and the Urborgs help with black mana.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 19:40

TheLawinator: Apr 13, 2012; Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that.

I've been playing with this Mardu Aristocrats deck against primarily green based midrange decks and it has been fantastic. I guess I'll have to test it a bunch more against Jeskai Tempo now!

Deck: Mardu Aristocrats

//Lands
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Non-Creature Spells
2 Crackling Doom
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Mardu Charm
1 Murderous Cut
2 Dictate of Erebos
2 Mardu Ascendancy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormenting Voice

//Creatures
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Tymaret, the Murder King

//Sideboard
2 Deicide
3 Despise
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Harness by Force
2 Magma Spray
2 Utter End

Display deck statistics

# ? Sep 28, 2014 21:29

Oldsrocket_27: Apr 28, 2009

Valicious posted:

Deck: Bad Decisions

//Main
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
1 Shivan Reef
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Mana Confluence
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Retraction Helix
4 Dragon Mantle
3 Twinflame
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
3 Dig Through Time
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Astral Cornucopia
1 Evanescent Intellect
2 Nylea's Presence

//Sideboard
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Swan Song
3 Crippling Chill
4 Circle of Flame
1 Restock
1 Aegis of the Gods

Display deck statistics

Thoughts? I'm thinking of taking this to States this weekend.

A friend of mine has been talking about a similar idea. He's running Briber's Purse instead of cornucopia because he feels it has better utility in a vacuum, and some copies of goblinslide so that he has multiple ways to go off. I don't think he's got any testing in yet, though.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 21:35

YeehawMcKickass: Jan 2, 2003; WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS

This is just something I threw together in case I can't pick up the last cards I need for Marduking:

Deck: Villiainous Devotion

//Lands
10 Forest
4 Island
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
1 Yavimaya Coast

//Spells
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Villainous Wealth

//Creatures
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Genesis Hydra
1 Hornet Queen
2 Kruphix, God of Horizons
3 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Prophet of Kruphix
3 Sagu Mauler
4 Sylvan Caryatid

Display deck statistics

I expect no wins, haven't even put together a sideboard, may totally change it before friday if needed.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 22:05

bhsman: Feb 10, 2008; by exmarx

Apparently there's a Grixis Delve deck floating out there that involves Riddle of Lightning and See Through Time/Treasure Cruise, and now I wanna brew it.

New Standard! :slick:

# ? Sep 28, 2014 22:10

Soothing Cacophony: Sep 29, 2009

Mercury Crusader posted:

Nooooo, my Old World MTG perceptions!!!

I really want to build something around Mardu colors but it looks like most decks have differing directions on how they want to conduct themselves throughout the game. I just don't want to play anything with blue or green (again) is all, so I'll be lurking around seeing how things go and work from there.

Mardu Control is amazingly fun against the current field of people trying to play creature decks. I've been testing it a lot this weekend and it works great. Jeskai Burn is insanely iffy since you use a lot of life through Thoughtseize and Read the Bones, but it's got great game cause creatures just don't stick to the board. I'm gonna try it with Sarkhans, who I avoided just because I don't feel like spending another $100 on 3-4 of him, but he seems good.

I've been testing Resolute Archangel in it currently over Nyx-Fleece Ram. Nyx-Fleece is okay but its such small potatoes vs. the big decks and it plays poorly with End Hostilities. Resolute Archangel is 7-mana (bleugh) but the lifegain is enormous and if you have the hand to back it up can usually put a game out of reach for the opponent. Maybe someone else has tried this card who knows better, but given that life gain options are so lovely in Mardu colors (outside maybe Sorin, but I feel like you want to be playing a creature deck with him), I feel like the Archangel might be good enough.

# ? Sep 28, 2014 22:21

Wurzag: Jun 3, 2007; Bad Moons, Bad Moons, wot ya gonna do?

bhsman posted:

Apparently there's a Grixis Delve deck floating out there that involves Riddle of Lightning and See Through Time/Treasure Cruise, and now I wanna brew it.

New Standard!

I for one would love to see this

# ? Sep 28, 2014 22:28

mehall: Aug 27, 2010

bhsman posted:

Apparently there's a Grixis Delve deck floating out there that involves Riddle of Lightning and See Through Time/Treasure Cruise, and now I wanna brew it.

New Standard!

This sounds sweet! Does it run Dead Drop too?

Edit: Jeskai instead for Narset? One good Narset flip could be game over.

mehall fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Sep 29, 2014

# ? Sep 28, 2014 23:54

Samael: Oct 16, 2012

Here's my Temur Monster's list- http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/13-09-14-cQg-rug-monsters/

Creature (24)
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
2x Sagu Mauler
4x Savage Knuckleblade
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Surrak Dragonclaw
3x Sylvan Caryatid

Land (24)
4x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
2x Mountain
4x Shivan Reef
2x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast

Instant (6)
3x Disdainful Stroke
3x Temur Charm

Planeswalker (6)
3x Nissa, Worldwaker
3x Xenagos, The Reveler

Sideboard (15)
2x AEtherspouts
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Bow of Nylea
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stubborn Denial

I don't know which 5 drops are best- I have keranos, nissa, surrak, stormbreaths. prognostic sphinxes and possibly get some sarkhans and I am having trouble which one to pick, help?

# ? Sep 28, 2014 23:59

Korak: Nov 29, 2007; TV FACIST

What do people think of gild in black decks right now? It's 4 mana but much easier to cast than Utter End. It does provide a ramping ability that will occasionally be very useful. I saw a Rakdos list that had it as a 3-of and it seems like just the right kind of additional removal for this format that also will guarantee you the fifth mana for Sarkhan or Dragon.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 00:23

Dungeon Ecology: Feb 9, 2011

It seems better in the sideboard than main. It only hits creatures and is Sorcery speed. Maybe if you're facing down a creature-heavy build you could side out your Utter Ends for those and trade out a land or two for more punch, but the flexibility Utter End provides it key.

If you're not running white, I prefer Silence the Believers. It still exiles stuff and has the potential to be more powerful at 7+ mana. And it's an instant.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 00:31

Mischalaniouse: Nov 7, 2009; *ribbit*

I saw this desklist on MTG Salvation and it seemed interesting. They're calling it Death and Taxes for some reason, though I don't really see how it relates to that deck. Anyway, the deck plays a bunch of cheap enchantment creatures, some of which trigger off of each other to drain out your opponent, along with other enchantment removal; finishers are Butcher of the Horde or just grinding out your opponent with life-loss triggers.

Here's a version I've put together, do you think more more main deck removal or threats are needed?

Deck: BWr Enchantments

//Lands
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
3 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence

//Spells
3 Banishing Light
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Mardu Ascendancy
2 Mardu Charm
4 Thoughtseize

//Creatures
3 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Brain Maggot
2 Butcher of the Horde
3 Fate Unraveler
4 Grim Guardian
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
3 Underworld Coinsmith

//Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Crackling Doom
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Extinguish All Hope
3 Stain the Mind
3 Erase
2 End Hostilities

Display deck statistics

# ? Sep 29, 2014 01:01

Dungeon Ecology: Feb 9, 2011

Hey, y'all, I missed that Sub-Sligh deck with Monastery Swiftspear that was posted last thread and is still being discussed in the main thread. Anyone have that list handy?

# ? Sep 29, 2014 01:16

Otherkinsey Scale: Jul 17, 2012; Just a little bit of sunshine!

It's in the post under the OP, ctrl-F Sub-sligh.

(I tried to take it to an event today, but no one showed. Maybe Friday.)

# ? Sep 29, 2014 01:24

Deofuta: Jul 7, 2013; The Corps is Mother
The Corps is Father

Thanks for the mention in the OP! Here is a prettier version of what I posted in case you want to keep it looking nice.

Deck: Jeskai Burn

//Lands
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
4 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph

//Spells
4 Arc Lightning
2 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Suspension Field

//Creatures
4 Mantis Rider
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Narset, Enlightened Master

//Sideboard
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Negate
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Banishing Light
3 Magma Spray
2 Treasure Cruise

Display deck statistics

# ? Sep 29, 2014 01:35

Dungeon Ecology: Feb 9, 2011

Carrasco posted:

It's in the post under the OP, ctrl-F Sub-sligh.

(I tried to take it to an event today, but no one showed. Maybe Friday.)

Woops, scrolled right by it. :shobon:

Thanks!

# ? Sep 29, 2014 02:45

Jimmy4400nav: Apr 1, 2011; Ambassador to Moonlandia

Mardu Pain Deck

//Lands

3 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Mountain
5 Swamp

//Spells

3 Hero's Downfall
4 Magma Jet
2 Mardu Ascendancy

//Creatures

4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Master of the Feast
4 Mogis's Warhound
3 Pain Seer
4 War-named Aspirant

//Sideboard

2 Crackling Doom
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Harness by Force
4 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Spray
2 Read the Bones

Basically its an aggro deck dedicated to jamming out high value threats rapidly. In understand Master of the Feast is a bit of an odd choice, and while yes he does give my opponent card advantage, I get to turn three a 5/5 with evasion, and even if it goes several rounds, I'll still either be able to swing for damage, or block something big, and if worse comes to worse, I can sac my master with a Butcher.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 03:17

Boco_T: Mar 12, 2003; la calaca tilica y flaca

You'll need 11 sources of white to hit consistently on turn 4 to play the Butchers.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 04:03

Big Ol Marsh Pussy: Jan 7, 2007

Any thoughts of splashing for white in the 16 land sligh deck off 4 confluence and 4 battlefield forge? I think Ride Down might be superior in the Searing Blood spot after this weekends results and it gives you more options post board, but that's a lot of damage from lands.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 06:42

Deckit: Sep 1, 2012

bhsman posted:

Apparently there's a Grixis Delve deck floating out there that involves Riddle of Lightning and See Through Time/Treasure Cruise, and now I wanna brew it.

New Standard!

Holy poo poo, I would love to see this.

I was testing Saito's Villainous wealth at my shop. Its a lot of fun hitting someone for 6+ and killing them with their own deck.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 07:07

Dungeon Ecology: Feb 9, 2011

Deckit posted:

Holy poo poo, I would love to see this.

I was testing Saito's Villainous wealth at my shop. Its a lot of fun hitting someone for 6+ and killing them with their own deck.

I didn't see anyone post it, but it looks like an insanely fun deck:

Lands:
4x Opulent Palace
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
4x Polluted Delta
4x Island

Creatures:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Embodiment of Spring
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix

Non-creature Spells:
4x Read the Bones
3x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4x Dictate of Karametra
3x Aetherspouts
4x In Garruk's Wake
3x Villainous Wealth

(With what looks like 4x Mistcutter Hydra in the sideboard)

# ? Sep 29, 2014 07:20

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

Dungeon Ecology posted:

I didn't see anyone post it, but it looks like an insanely fun deck:

I'm surprised at not having 1-of basic swamp, since that's the colour you're missing if you're able to activate Embodiment of Spring.

E: actually, I'm pretty sure that's 2 Swamp 2 Island, not 4 Island in the top right.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 07:26

CaptainAmazingPants: Jul 14, 2002; I'm just waiting for someone to respond "WHAT ARE YOU SOME KIND OF FUCKING IDIOT"

Deck: Abzan Midrange

//Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid

3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

4 Courser of Kruphix

4 Siege Rhino

2 Polukranos, World Eater

3 Wingmate Roc

2 Arbor Colossus

//Spells
4 Thoughtseize

4 Abzan Charm

4 Hero's Downfall

2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

//Lands
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Forest
3 Plains
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Swamp
3 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath

Display deck statistics

This is the deck I've been brewing since the first pre-release. I played Abzan and opened a Siege Rhino as my promo. I hadn't seen the card in spoilers before and basically got a tremendous boner thinking about building a standard deck around it. I would love to wiggle a Whip of Erebos or even a couple Journey to the Underworld in there to get extra mileage out of rhinos. The list had 2 Utter Ends and 2 Banishing Lights in it and I switched them out with more creatures. Still not sure what is right. The land base is basically what I have. My sideboard will probably have early aggro answers and some control answers. I've been thinking of mainboarding drown in sorrow. It kills a lot of stuff and my local meta leans more towards the low cmc aggro decks.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 07:56

suicidesteve: Jan 4, 2006; "Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.

Samael posted:

Here's my Temur Monster's list- http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/13-09-14-cQg-rug-monsters/

https://deckbox.org/sets/793305

This is my work in progress thing. I sold most of my Theros stuff, so I don't have Stormbreaths, etc, and M15 sucked so I didn't actually get any for Nissas and whatnot. So this is what I ended up with. Obviously there's some stuff to cut, but I'll figure that out tomorrow. I'm open to suggestions for non-$30 cards I've missed/what to cut.

# ? Sep 29, 2014 08:55

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:59

Fingers McLongDong: Nov 30, 2005; not eromenos; Fun Shoe

Here's my version of Mardu control that i'll hopefully have complete by this weekend. Started making mardu walkers, ended up with this instead.

4x Thoughtseize
4x Magma Jet
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Mardu Charm
3x Crackling Doom
3x End Hostilities
3x Read the Bones
2x Despise
2x Banishing Light
1x Utter End
1x Empty the Pits
3x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1x Liliana Vess

25 lands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Nomad Outpost
3x Mana Confluence
3x Temple of Malice
2x Temple of Silence
2x Battlefield Forge
1x Urborg
3x Swamp
2x Mountain
1x Plains

SB:
4x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Drown in Sorrow
2x Despise
2x Utter End
2x Nyx-Fleece Ram
1x Empty the Pits
1x Crackling Doom

I can adjust the lands however necessary if someone thinks I got it wrong. I'm trying to avoid having many painlands since I have no lifegain.

Fingers McLongDong fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Sep 29, 2014

# ? Sep 29, 2014 13:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > M:tG: The Brewhaus (THS/KTK): Deck Thinning Doesn't Matter

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