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Their previous 2 games entirely revolved around setting up transit lines, so I'm sure transit in this will be pretty good. In fact the lack of having to gently caress around with about 50 different fare types means it will most likely be better. What I'm pretty disappointed in is that they've said the game will only ship with bus and metro for transit. They've got 2 tram based games under their belts and they couldn't implement trams?? It doesn't look like we will have much for pedestrians and cyclists aren't even modeled either. What IS cool though is that it seems like parking is modeled in some way. I don't know if it's just visual, but a city builder that actually included parking would be revolutionary. Parking and parking policies are actually some of the biggest factors that shape cities, but it's always ignored. Also you can upgrade roads without having to demolish everything! The art so far is a bit so-so too. Building repetition will be a major problem as so far there isn't any evidence that they'll have any sort of random colour/props system. Slight variations in building colour and signs and poo poo can make a single model worth 10 . But a highly detailed building, specially with lots of little details that grab your attention, repeated over and over looks awful. It's also a game that allows free-form roads but still has square building that have to fit on a zone grid. So expect lots of empty patches and give up any hope at urban wall to wall buildings. Still even so far it looks better than Simcity 2013 in that respect. So far I'm pretty optimistic about the game being a solid but simple city builder, with the potential to be awesome with mods. It's still way too early to tell, there's so much we don't know.
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Sep 30, 2014 21:50
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HappyHelmet posted:If they do go the CiM route of setting up your own bus lines I hope they make it more streamlined. One of my biggest complaints in CiM 2 was setting up lines for buses to follow as the UI was so obtuse. They've said it will be as simple as plopping down stops, drawing the lines, and then it just goes. No dicking around with schedules or fares. \/ That was CiM2's biggest problem, they increased the detail and complexity massively, but the interface got worse compared with CiM1. So to do anything you had to slog through multiple tabs and windows and tiny unintuitive buttons. It always felt more like using some technical transit planning suite than a game. So far Skylines interface looks pretty ok. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 22:20
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Yeah it's like if someone took the good aspects of cities XL and mushed them together with the good parts of CiM2. I wonder if a city builder will ever attempt online play after the absolute disaster and subsequent back-peddling into single player of both Cities XL and Simcity2013.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:20
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It's still a bit depressing that in 2014 all city builders are still using 100% use segregated zoning. I know the excuses of "gameplay" and "simplicity" but if you can't figure out how to do basic urban zones and make your gameplay work I don't know what to say. "mixed use" isn't some weird new concept, hell it's the norm in 99% of cities outside of a post-war american suburb. Shops on the bottom, office or residential above.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:11
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I really wish that companies just didn't bother with multiplayer unless they are pro's and have solid experience with net-code. A poorly implemented multiplayer just for the sake of having it as a check-box on the feature list is such a waste of resources.
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Oct 1, 2014 21:20
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I'm really curious how the whole flowing water system is going to work. In the video it seems important on the river there for water intake and sewage outflow, and in another video we saw a mayor put the outflow on top of a mountain and create a sewerfall. I know it can take a lot of resources to real time do all these flows, dwarf fortress can barely handle it. Is it really worth the "budget" to have flowing water? How else will in impact gameplay? We've already learned there will be no seawalls or any sort of harbour or riverfront embankments or developments so the game just isn't very water focused in that respect. Uh I'm also now remembering them saying something about the water not being real-time and flowing unless you're in the map editor, then it's static. But if so then how does the poo poo-falls and dam-flooding work?
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Oct 3, 2014 21:50
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True, we didn't see a poo poo creek or lake forming at the base of the outflow, just the cosmetic spray. Actual proper water modeling would be cool though for like a "Sim Netherlands" sort of game where the focus is on both city building and flood/water control. Build up towns and farms and your dykes then see how you fair the next storm surge or river flooding. Also sim netherlands would have trams and bikes!
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Oct 3, 2014 22:16
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It reminds me a lot more of Cities XL at the moment, just with a more modern interface. Everything is just copied off whatever feels cool and modern at the time.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:24
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I'm really not digging this leveling and zoning system they have. It seems like if you want to keep an area a certain scale you'll have to just deny them services so they can't upgrade.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:25
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I'm also not digging the fact that every building is basically 4x4. This means every office building, factory, and apartment will have similar cube-like massing. Factories are huge sprawling things, I'd love to see that ever represented in a city builder. Simcity 4 had some decently sized industrial buildings. I'd love to see upgradable "major industries" you can plop. Huge steel mill or factories that actually span multiple city blocks.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:00
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Simcity 4 almost had this expanding factory mechanism. If a single industrial building grew in a zone, more buildings of the same type could grow off of that building using the first building as a road connection. When I made huge industrial areas I made sure it only had a few tiles touching road, then a strip of unzoned or park. You'd not only be able to control what grows there (if the first building is dirty, all others will be dirty, if the first is high-tech, all others will be high-tech) but it also means you can have a vast amount of jobs all coming off one building, making it super nice to serve via transit. I think the game was trying to model vast multi-building industrial complexes.
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Oct 8, 2014 16:57
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I've read quite a few articles and studies on the whole idea of cities giving incentives, tax breaks, and special deals to entice industries or keep industries in their city and it never works or pays off. They usually come or go as they please, and need tax breaks and hand-outs so big the industry is a net drain on the city. And the moment any of those breaks go away, the industry moves on to the next victim desperate and stupid enough to play that game.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:55
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To be fair the mayor usually has little to do with planning roads, and schools and hospitals aren't usually done at the city level either. These sort of games though aren't mayor simulators, they're just games where you are god of a few square km of land with a fairly arbitrary level of control.
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Oct 25, 2014 20:59
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What the hell fascist hell hole city has zones of the city where pets are banned? The policies are really weird. The whole having to create a district then set a policy to get farms seems like horrendous interface design too. Just make an agricultural zone you dingbats.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:28
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If they'd just fix the scale issue on some items this could be rad. They have these cool bus stops that integrate into the sidewalk but couldn't do the same for subway? Airport doesn't have to be to scale but just not so jarringly tiny. And they need to scrap their entire resource/district system and do proper farms and poo poo.
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Nov 4, 2014 17:48
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Fintilgin posted:I'm more concerned about the number of identical 'clone' buildings showing up in some of the screenies. I don't know why they don't have randomized "props" like in sc4 and randomized colours/textures on parts of buildings to make them all look different.
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Nov 4, 2014 18:43
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Space isn't really a limitation in these games, airports and buildings can be as big as they need to be. A map tile nearly filled with an airport only has the airport to process vs that same tile being full of dense city. It's not the size of the maps, it's what's in it that counts. The map tile limits are just there as a worst case scenario for low end systems, but it's a really bad measure for performance. A 9 tile city that's mostly sparse suburbia and nature areas will end up running smoother than a 4 tile city that's fully built up. I think though they've said the tile limit will be moddable. So if your system or city design can run smooth on 12 tiles go for it. The 4x4 buildings and tiny airports are just them being lazy and trying to be "safe". When every building is the same size it's much easier to estimate performance needs and map size limits. With more reasonable sized buildings and farms it would mean a much bigger variety in "performance density". They feel they need to limit the map based on the absolute worst case scenario of someone filling up the map with skyscrapers, which means if farms and airports are bigger this will be a harder balancing act for them. If they make farms and airports big but balance map size assuming wall to wall skyscrapers people will complain the maps are too small. If they balance the map size assuming people will build a lot of farmland around their city people will complain the game runs too slow once they hit 50 million people. Personally I'd rather leave performance up to the user and just scale things a little more realistically, or at least believably. Sure give us a little selective compression with some of the huge items, but not to the point where it looks absolutely ridiculous like the airports or inexcusably ugly like the farms.
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Nov 5, 2014 21:20
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The terrain looks really bad and I don't like the silly reward system, but it's no worse than sc4's.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:42
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I don't know if I'll ever finish it but I've been sort of working on a stupid city building game. Imagine playing simcity4 but never leaving the region view...
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Nov 28, 2014 17:24
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KKKlean Energy posted:How odd. Taxes are split by density, not wealth. So unlike simcity 4, you can't tax the rich more and give the poor a break. Instead you can only choose whether it's the high-rises or the suburbs that gets taxed the most, regardless of how wealthy they are. That's really bizarre. Little things like that just keep boggling my mind. They seem to be on the right track and making a solid game in most areas, but then they make these insanely bone headed design choices like tiny maximum zoned building sizes, a tiny amount of zones/densities, and then a kludged neighbourhood specialty system, and a stupid tax system now. The zoning system is really dumb. They wanted to "keep it simple" with the number of zones/densities, but instead of having a simple "Farm Zone" you zone industrial, create a region, then set that region's specialty to agriculture??? That feels kludged as hell, why not just have an agricultural zone that has its own rules on lot sizes? Why does it have to follow the same maximum 4x4 building size like other zones? Mines are a zone? Why not just make them big huge special buildings, mines are huge affairs, not something you zone inside a tight grid of city blocks and watch dozens of little independant house-sized mines pop up. Make a huge nasty thing you plop down and can expand. I know it's late in development now, but some of these things seem so dumb and bad they're worth spending the time to change, or just scrap. I'd honestly just ditch farming altogether if they can't do it right. Scrap it and then implement it properly in an expansion. So much of the game seems solid but small dumb design choices or badly implemented features can ruin things.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:40
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I'm pretty sure they said at some time that the 9 tile limit is just the default limit for babby computers and so idiots don't complain about performance but the maximum number of tiles will be changeable in a config file somewhere so you can mod it out.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:55
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Yeah I hope it's not going to try to say that so long as you give everyone great education and services everyone's rich and happy and there's just no need for working class people.
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Dec 4, 2014 01:37
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yeah, I hope via modding people implement not just more building variety but shape variety. I've seen a few houses that don't quite seem 4x4 but it looks like 4x4 is the dominant lot size, specially for anything moderately dense. Would love to see all densities and wealths represented at all sizes to help fill in all those gaps. So like 1x4 buildings and such. I don't think modders can do things to make larger buildings though, but I could see someone doing a "total conversion" sort of mod that replaces a lot of industry with ploppable rewards while removing mines and refineries as zoned tiny buildings. Could have huge factories, mines, refineries placed more like power plants. I don't see any solution to farming looking awful though. Farms just don't fit in the 4x4 urban lot system. It's a bit spergy but I also really hope the art of the building matches its stats. In city games it always drives me nuts when two buildings of vastly different sizes have the same stats. Cities XL was horrible for this where an 8 story building and a 50 story building would have the exact same stats simply because they were both the same level of building. Simcity 4's numbers were mostly way too high, but at least the numbers matched relative to each other. I want to be able to look at a building and it be fairly intuitive how many people live/work there.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:49
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Yeah when I bought CIM2 I assumed because it was Paradox (published) it would follow the same development pattern. Ok to not so great game on release that gets patches and expansions that make it amazing. Colossal order don't really do that, reading the forums it seems a lot of people got pretty pissed (angry betrayed people on paradox forums!?) at the lack of patches/development of CIM2, even things they promised to fix/implement. Paradox seems a lot more involved in this one though, so hopefully they rub off on these Fins more. If Paradox was directly making this I'd be a lot more optimistic that we'd see years of patches and DLC that make the game into something amazing, but with Colossal Order I'm not holding my breath and will assume the quality of the game at release is going to be more or less how it will stay. I do really wish they just hadn't bothered with the whole forestry/farming/mining poo poo at all and just focused on getting everything else right, then come out with some FORESTRY DLC that implements it in a cool way, or a FARMING DLC that implements really nice farms. They'd make more money and we'd get a better game in the end.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:46
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CiM2 is what happens when you listen 100% to your core most spergy fans and no one else. No time to actually make places or destinations in cities, get rid of train stations, stadiums and just make every building a different size of one of 3 general types repeated in an endless gray carpet. But by god do we have time to implement insanely detailed ticket prices and scheduling. No time to provide good interfaces for any of this, but we've got it. I still enjoy CiM1 because it's the closest I've ever seen to a city game that lets me build charming wall-to-wall buildings. I'd be 100% fine with gridded roads if it meant a building system that actually allowed for realistic tight wall to wall blocks of buildings. Ever since Cities XL we've been stuck trying to fit square buildings on curves and angles and it looks bad unless all the buildings look very suburban. Works for houses and skyscrapers but everything in between looks bad. I'd love a simple transport/city builder that was basically CiM1 with city management aspects and some a few more transport tools. Keep the grid, keep the charm.
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Dec 11, 2014 20:11
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Right, all that only applied to suburbia though, not urban centers where all the buildings have fire-walls right against the lot lines and no setback from the front lot line. This is what a city should look like. No spaces between buildings.  The look of Simcity 5 or Cities XL or Cities: Skylines is fine for a modern suburb, but not for a city centre. What I posted above is your typical central european city, but the same massing is true around the world. From the cores of north american cities to asian cities to South american, and of course even Helsinki. Have Colossal Order never walked outside their office and seen what a city centre looks like? CiM1 looked good. They gave us a set of fairly generic city buildings that came in all sorts of shapes and sizes and ANGLES so you could make a proper street-wall in just about any shape. Even just doubling the selection and adding a few new shapes and a simple algorithm for getting them to grow when zoned along an 8-direction gridded road system would have been great looking. You could make triangular blocks, square, angled, just about any shape the 8-direction road system could make could be filled with buildings with no terrible looking void spaces. And even if you did have some slight voids, they could all be quite nicely filled with plazas and markets and the exact sort of actively used public spaces you'd expect. 
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 13, 2014 |
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Dec 13, 2014 20:14
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Almost all of those downtowns are full of street-walls of buildings following the angles of the roads??? Also wow Houston is ridiculously nasty with those parking lots everywhere.
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Dec 13, 2014 22:36
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I think a hybrid system would be great. Have a library of pre-modeled buildings but with randomized elements for yards and textures and roofs and things to add variety for suburban/detached buildings, and a sort of polygon lot system for when things get denser. Just slap some ugly concrete/brick texture for the fire walls, a nice facade on the front, and a back texture on the back then generate a roof. The technology absolutely exists and in the end it actually saves you time as you don't have to hand model a million buildings. Or you can just ship with a tiny selection of buildings and hope modders add variety. Of course they're a small developer so they can't do everything perfectly. Citybound is doing procedural buildings though, but he's a loooong way off.
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Dec 13, 2014 23:08
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Everything still feels so suburban. Big gaps and open space around every building, transport all being big wide roads. Where's the intimate little human-scale pedestrian areas? So far what I've noticed with Skylines is the same problem that cities XL had and Simcity 5 had, it all looks the same. Basically in simcity4 and even 3000/2000 I felt like I was really designing/customizing my city at a very fine grain and the systems of the game worked around and responded to my choices, even at small levels. In Cities XL, Simcity 5, and it looks like Skylines too, the "scale" at which the player makes actions that effect the looks and function of the city is much bigger, which produce much less diverse and interesting results. I'm sure for many people the vast scale of the cities them selves will be enough, but for people who really want to dig-in and make each block, each neighbourhood feel like a place it's not so great. Which really mirrors my opinions of CiM and CiM2. CiM1 had small cities packed with character and detail and there was so much to customize, placing individual litter bins, benches, decorative walls. The scale of player control was extremely fine. Then in CiM2 the scale of the cities was massively increased, but with the focus pulled out that much more there's no time to worry about the exact type of lamps on this street, or if there's enough benches near that popular gathering area. I'm actually fine with smaller maps that you can really pack with detail. I rather have a few dozen city blocks that I feel I've hand-crafted and customized to poo poo than a few hundred city blocks that all look more or less the same. Of course a good city builder would let you do both. Automatically generate generic details where needed, provide enough building style and size variety to fit just about any street layout, but also give you to tools to really zoom into an area and make it your own.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:23
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Are there any signs the game understands what is a corner lot and what isn't, or the ability to use style sets like in simcity4? Because with those 2 features and modding we could have just about anything. Want to make a set of Parisian looking buildings? Go nuts! You're stuck with 90 degree corners but at least you'll have nice realistic blocks of wall to wall buildings with nice corners.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:54
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Grand Fromage posted:Corners I don't know. The fact that you can use districts to dictate what sort of industry pops up suggests to me that there might be some mechanism there modders could use to set districts with different building sets, if it's not in the game already. Obviously entirely talking out of my rear end but it seems possible. Yeah, that would be really cool. The whole district thing could be really powerful if there was a big enough selection of buildings and modders actually tagged things correctly. So you could use a district to set height or density limits, or only allow certain styles. \/ Right now they have such a tiny selection of buildings and only 2 official densities I'm not sure there's enough buildings to actually apply any meaningful filters. Maybe we can at least block certain building levels. Like tell an area it can only advance to level X or what ever. I still don't quite get the building leveling up mechanic. Every time a building levels up the wealth and density and everything about it levels up? Or only certain parts? Is it trying to representing increasing density or increasing wealth because those are often two very different things. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 18:51
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Paradox made CO remove all their crazy social policies. CO wanted the mayor to be able to make individual neighbourhoods were gay marriage was legal or not, and a bunch of other weird awkward stuff that really doesn't belong at the civic level let alone neighbourhood. Oh right there was also a pet ownership ban because some CO dev hates animals.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:08
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I think they're shooting for late Q1
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Dec 29, 2014 21:44
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"Because simulating individual citizens takes some processing power, we opted to cut down the number of citizens. Some residential buildings have a quite low amount of people living in them compared to the size of the building. We felt choosing individual citizens over realistic numbers brought more to the game. So while your high-rise might have only 12 households, everyone has a name and a logical pattern of moving around the city. " God drat it, my interest in the game just really sank. Building stats not being close to realistic, or even internally consistent is a huge turn off for me. So that little house will have 1 family in it but that skyscraper will have 12. The density and growth of your city is an illusion just like with the last simcity. BUT, it does seem like something that could be modded. Someone could come out with "realistic building stats" mod along with tweaking other game stats to compensate. But seriously I'd rather just have smaller maps than empty fake buildings.
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Jan 7, 2015 18:42
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Poizen Jam posted:Well that pretty much seals it for me. I was wary when previous press releases mentioned sub-1 mil populations, but now that it's confirmed I'm really disappointed. If they're so set on using agents, couldn't they at least abstract the numbers a bit? Surely 1 'agent' representing a few citizens is preferable to the max city size being Hamilton, Ontario. They already abstract citizens into "Households". So a house would have a slot for 1 household which could represent a few people. I think that's ok, abstraction is ok but the abstraction has to be consistent. If a house with 1,000 sqft of living space holds 1 middle class "household" then a huge 20,000 sqft apartment tower of a similar class should hold at least 20 households. But no, as buildings get bigger their density actually goes down, that building that should hold 20 households ends up holding only 12. Probably the same for employment too. That little corner store strip mall employs 10 people, but that office tower 200x the size only employs 100 people. Why? Well everyone wants kewl skyscrapers to feel like a big city but screw actually filling them with jobs and people, that's too much work. I don't get it, if you don't want buildings holding too many households just don't model large buildings, or make a growth system where such large buildings are harder to get. Also has anyone noticed the cities are all really ugly? Has a single city that actually looks natural been posted? It's all big square isolated patches of 5-10 story apartments surrounded by grass or trees connected by highways, and random landmarks and stadiums plopped around where they fit. Not a single thing they've posted looks natural, with a downtown core spreading out to suburbs. Obviously a lot of that is the choice of the player, but I'm surprised in all their promo's they seem to put zero effort into making a city look good. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 23:52
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Poizen Jam posted:I hope CityBound's agents aren't limited in number the same way. Citybound is 100% agent based but he's adding in a more complex and intelligent driving system and people have detailed dynamic daily routines to satisfy all their needs, so I'm going to guess that Citybound will be just as if not more limited by its agent system. Why can't someone just take simcity 4's basic system, optimize its performance and path-finding, maybe make it 3d, and that's it? Everyone wants Simcity 5 but we keep just getting Cities XL over and over.
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Jan 8, 2015 00:34
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Poizen Jam posted:So Baron, what you're telling me is there are no city simulation games on the horizon that will let me make cities as large as New York, Hong Kong, or Tokyo? I thought Anselm was gunning for high capacity, large cities. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he's been careful not to make any promises. He doesn't really know how it will perform or what the upper limit will be. He's just sort of coding as he goes along. He could optimise the poo poo out of his brilliant code and be able to simulate over a million, or there could be way too much insane detail to make the real-time traffic work and the game begins to bog down at 100,000. No idea. You could go over to his thread though and ask, even for a general ballpark. I'm not expert but based on his super-detailed agent system I honestly think we're looking at small pops unless the game is entirely just a real time traffic sim with no other simulation detail. Which oddly enough is what a lot of city builder fans seem to want. All they care about are roads and cars and intersections and making perfect highway systems. Everything else is just a box a car goes into or comes out of. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 01:06
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Until you have procedural buildings that can fit into all the weird shapes you end up with on a non-grid based game, keep it tile based. Do it right or don't do it at all.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:38
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Don't give those fuckers a dime. Since the first team/company went bankrupt the group that bought the corpse of the game have done nothing but dress it up, badly. They're trying to sort of Weekend at Bernies the rotting corpse of a failed city builder. The last version boasted a bunch of improvements and ton of new buildings, but it's like no one there actually knows how to code or fix anything existing. They just tacked on a ton of very badly and inconsistently modeled buildings (many with lots the wrong size for the model, so they over-hang onto roads or over-lap into neighbouring buildings). The memory and performance issues are still there, all the issues are still there. They have the talent of some amateur modders and just scrape together some extremely inconsistent and unbalanced modpacks and then sell it as a new improved game ever year. I was in the first Beta and then didn't touch the game, I finally bought the last version when it was on fire sale for a few bucks a few years ago and certainly got a few bucks worth of fun out of it, but the new team has no idea what they are doing and/or their business plan is to keep dressing it up and re-marketing it to squeeze a few sales here and there. Nothing has been actually fixed or improved, just more poo poo crammed on top, and it's all mostly bad broken poo poo.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:54
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ToastyPotato posted:Cities XL games always go on sale anyway so worst case you could probably end up getting the "new" one for 10-15 bux down the road during the next Winter Sale. I highly doubt they put much effort into fixing the game if its getting suddenly released without much fanfare like this. I doubt they have much of a budget. It's probably like a few guys with other actual real jobs who every now and then work part-time gathering up some random building models and making GBS threads out some bad code to make a little extra cash. But if your budget and effort is basically nothing, the few sales you make are pure profit. Specially since they never had to pay to develop the game, they bought the rights at fire-sale prices after the first company went out of business. I'm sure it was a good financial move for them, and they'll keep putting out zero-effort "versions" of cities XL as long as people keep buying them. I'd love to see the financial data/sales though for cities XL post-bankruptcy. How much did they pay for the rights, how much have they actually invested in their "new versions", and how much has each re-release earned them.
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Jan 16, 2015 02:30
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