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That was in HF though. 
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Oct 15, 2014 03:44
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Fangz posted:I just don't see Shinji as every being able to be 'scared straight', though, so the resolution of UBW seems so unconvincing to me. If he can't pick on Sakura then he will pick on someone else. His personality is just that sort of nasty exploitative thing. But UBW Shinji didn't get much better. quote:Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Characters, p.134-135
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Oct 15, 2014 05:16
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Kubla Khan posted:A question about the UBW route: Except that in one of the dead ends at the end of the Fate route Saber guts Shirou despite him having command seals left (I think) which would run contrary to that. Also why is everyone using spoiler tags for things that relate to UBW? I don't think any anime watcher that doesn't want to get spoiled is going to read this thread.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:05
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When I said positive things about Apocrypha's characterization earlier in this thread, I should have said everyone except Jack and Reika. Jack and Reika are terrible.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:53
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Well we know it's difficult but not impossible for a servant to go against a command seal. It depends on the magical power of the user and the independence of the servant (Gilgamesh seems to be basically immune). So maybe Archer (with his independent action skill) can easily ignore them while Caster can't. And Saber can ignore Shirou's if she really wants to because Shirou isn't that magical.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:42
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To be honest, my time through stay night I didn't really "get" the problem with using all three Command Spells. The dialogue was saying it's a bad idea, because then your Servant could do anything they wanted, up to and including turning on their Master, but all of the Servants, with the exception of Lancer (kind of. He likes Bazett, but hates Kirei), and Caster liked the person who summoned them. Even if Archer does betray Rin, it wasn't really out of malice and more of his hands being tied regarding Shirou. zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Well we know it's difficult but not impossible for a servant to go against a command seal. It depends on the magical power of the user and the independence of the servant (Gilgamesh seems to be basically immune). So maybe Archer (with his independent action skill) can easily ignore them while Caster can't. And Saber can ignore Shirou's if she really wants to because Shirou isn't that magical. Independent Action is a skill that simply describes how long a Servant can last without actually being connected to a Master's mana pool, not how well they deal with Command Spells. Archer was never really contracted under Caster during the betrayal, and was solely reliant on Independent Action keeping him around for the duration. The entire reason the alliance happens is because he wanted Rule Breaker to hit him because Rin used a Command Spell to actually stop him from attacking Shirou. Gil can't be ordered around in FSN because he doesn't actually have a master/command seal relationship. He survives on an indefinite Independent Action skill and feeds off a different source for prana to fuel his normal abilities. As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically. Yosuke fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 07:56
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Sylphid posted:zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted. The teleporting and whatnot existed in the original too, you must have forgotten. Actually, that's the only thing they've ever really been used for. Shirou teleported Saber to save his life. It's kind of funny how the characters make a big deal of them but they're never really important to the story. Yosuke posted:As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically. Yup. A Master without a Servant is still technically in the game, but a Master without a command seal is just some ordinary Mage. They are no longer qualified to have the Grail grant their wish, no matter what they do. Unless they steal another command seal from someone else. Eh, it's the Nasuverse: rules are meant to be broken.
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Oct 15, 2014 08:07
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Yosuke posted:Independent Action is a skill that simply describes how long a Servant can last without actually being connected to a Master's mana pool, not how well they deal with Command Spells. Archer was never really contracted under Caster during the betrayal, and was solely reliant on Independent Action keeping him around for the duration. The entire reason the alliance happens is because he wanted Rule Breaker to hit him because Rin used a Command Spell to actually stop him from attacking Shirou. The way I've always understood it, Servants need Masters for two things. First, to provide mana to sustain(and heal in case of injury) their material form and fuel their abilities- this is actually the less important part. The Grail summons Servants with big enough mana pool to last them a couple of days without receiving any from the master-vide Saber, and Servants can acquire mana through other means, like Rider, Caster and Gil!Archer. The second, more important function is to act as an anchor of sorts, keeping Servants in a time and space where they don't belong. Servants with Independent Action can remain in the world for some time, dependant on the rank of the skill, Servants without it fade away almost immediately. Archer WAS contracted to Caster- Rule Breaker seems to automatically transfer the Command Spells to her from the Master of whoever she has stabbed.
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Oct 15, 2014 08:53
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Sylphid posted:To be honest, my time through stay night I didn't really "get" the problem with using all three Command Spells. The dialogue was saying it's a bad idea, because then your Servant could do anything they wanted, up to and including turning on their Master, but all of the Servants, with the exception of Lancer (kind of. He likes Bazett, but hates Kirei), and Caster liked the person who summoned them. Even if Archer does betray Rin, it wasn't really out of malice and more of his hands being tied regarding Shirou. HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering? A master without command spells can still obtain command spells by various means.
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Oct 15, 2014 10:17
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Fangz posted:HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering? Nope that's pretty much how I remember it too. Since servants are pretty much invurneable to everything non-servant you need the command spells to force them to kill themselves which completes the grail.
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Oct 15, 2014 10:25
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Fangz posted:HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering? The "complete" grail, the one reaching the Root, need 7 Servants, but the "apparent" grail, the Giant cluster of magical energy created during the Great Grail filling, is already usable with 5 or 6 Servants.
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Oct 15, 2014 10:45
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It's still totally possible to win with no command seals and have a contract, but that makes you a big dummy like Waver and you are totally reliant on your Servant's goodwill at that point.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:08
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Rodyle posted:It's still totally possible to win with no command seals and have a contract, but that makes you a big dummy like Waver and you are totally reliant on your Servant's goodwill at that point. Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner. ...I just don't think it counts.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:35
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Clarste posted:Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner. I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master. As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:07
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And if you end up with 1 seal and a Servant with A or higher Magic Resistance you're kinda SoL.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:12
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Is there any master in the fifth war that even realizes the grails real purpose? If anyone knows, it's Illya.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:13
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Kirei and Zouken probably both figured it out. Caster also claims that she immediately understood its true nature and thus the inherent futility of fighting for it. Also the other reason you need a command seal is that even if you don't want to go for the full 7 Road To the Root prize, you still might need to get your servant to back off of their own wish unless you have someone like Diarmuid who just wants to give it to you anyway.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:18
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I'm not sure Zouken still remembers: by the Fifth Grail War Zouken's body is falling apart to the point of him becoming pretty much senile and he just wants to use Grail to become immortal. Just before he dies, he remembers what the Grail is and why does he wants it, but I don't think he realized it beforehand. Outside of him, yeah Kotomine knows for sure and so does Caster. Illya does as well, because she was the one who delivered the whole exposition about the true purpose of Holy Grail War in Heaven's Feel. Sakura might know about it, considering she is a heir of Matou family and was trained by presumably more lucid Zouken to be utilized in next Grail War, but either way, she doesn't care. Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 16:47
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You'd think Tohsaka would know but who knows honestly, Kotomine might have kept her in the dark about it.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:09
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Either way when you summon super murderghosts it's quite useful to to have a way to prevent your Servant from killing you. The War is predicated on betrayal, after all.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:11
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Iretep posted:You'd think Tohsaka would know but who knows honestly, Kotomine might have kept her in the dark about it. Tohsaka definitely doesn't know. Her knowledge of the Holy Grail War is totally filled with holes by design.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:35
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If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:41
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Lt. Lizard posted:I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master. I dunno about the first part since honestly the situation never comes up and isn't relevant. I don't think there's any real evidence of my position though so okay. As for the second part though, as people have been pointing out, absolutely none of the Masters chosen for the 5th War can possibly "win" by your definition, since the only one who knows anything about it is Ilya and she dies as part of the process. So in that sense, even being chosen by the Grail is irrelevant because they couldn't "win" in the first place. Having a command seal, having a servant, all of that becomes irrelevant. And even if they knew, I doubt any of them except maybe Rin would consider it a win anyway. So, for my purposes, I was defining a win as having access to the infinite mana that is a side effect of the 3rd Sorcery or whatever. That's the wish that everyone else is fighting for, and it's clearly possible to use that without ordering your Servants to kill themselves. Of course, then you run into the "grail is made of pure evil" problem, but that's not a function of the system itself such much as an accident of the 3rd War.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:02
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BlitzBlast posted:If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago. During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:04
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BlitzBlast posted:If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago. If Rin knew half of what she thinks she knows, she'd have been unstoppable. She'd even be able to program a VCR unaided. Ytlaya posted:During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't that during the fight in the cavern? Pretty sure she was trying to goad Sakura into attacking out of anger.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:05
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Ytlaya posted:During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:08
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Rin asks Sakura to forgive her during the Harem end.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:59
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AfroSquirrel posted:
Blu-Ray Recorder  Seriously, though. I think part of the charm of most characters is that, despite the other-worldliness that surrounds them, they are people with fundamentally grounded flaws. Except, of course, Shinji.
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Oct 15, 2014 23:07
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I do like how the Grail was never actually used even before it was corrupted. The first and second they gently caress it up and then the third time they really, really gently caress it up.
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Oct 16, 2014 00:01
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Eej posted:Maybe I'm just older or maybe it's just ufotable being good at what they do but I'm liking Sakura a lot more in the UBW anime. Maybe her polite nature comes off better in motion than in text? Gonna suck for her when Rin comes in and steals him away. For me I started liking her the moment she kinda stood up and corrected Shirou in a forceful enough way to make him take a step back. 
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Oct 16, 2014 00:38
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Ytlaya posted:During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that. Rin is not so good with the words.
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Oct 16, 2014 01:45
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Well, at that point Sakura was lashing out and trying to kill everyone mostly out of self-pity. When I read that scene I was mostly just agreeing with Rin. I mean, it's one thing that Sakura had a miserably bad life and another thing that she was using it to justify a murder spree.
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Oct 16, 2014 01:49
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Raenir Salazar posted:For me I started liking her the moment she kinda stood up and corrected Shirou in a forceful enough way to make him take a step back. In HA, Sakura's pretty much all about gently intimidating everyone she meets into submission. Zouken and Shinji practically live by her whim alone. EDIT: Oh and she also talks about cooking a lot. It's like the one conversation both Shirou and her are most comfortable with, so they fall back on it whenever things get awkward. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 01:51
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Eej posted:Maybe I'm just older or maybe it's just ufotable being good at what they do but I'm liking Sakura a lot more in the UBW anime. Maybe her polite nature comes off better in motion than in text? Gonna suck for her when Rin comes in and steals him away. No, it's not an age thing. I went through and read all of HF again two days ago, and yet I still like the little of Sakura I've seen in UBW more than any part of her in any FSN arc. Maybe she's just a character that needs to be animated to not come off as so - for lack of a better phrase - one dimensional?
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Oct 16, 2014 02:16
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Pierson posted:I do like how the Grail was never actually used even before it was corrupted. The first and second they gently caress it up and then the third time they really, really gently caress it up. And then the Einzberns had to be sore losers and dump a tanker full of evil into the prize pool without telling anyone.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:36
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Twiddy posted:I also like how this makes complete sense. The original plan is convoluted and requires the unwilling help of other powerful agents. I can understand that getting the necessary vast quantities of energy in the right place doing the right thing is probably super hard, but that doesn't change the fact that the resulting mechanism is unstable as hell. They were setting themselves up for multiple failures before success. The thing with the counter force is that it often tries to make any attempt at reach the root fail. Making third party notice the situation or making things more likely to fail. The counter force nudging Ryougi Shiki in the direction of Araya is sort of an example (I guess the involvement of the Nazi and the imperial army that resulted in the destruction of the lesser grail in the 3rd Holy Grail War is also an example). If all hell breaks lose, then it sents the counter guardian in the form of the forces of nature. quote:Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Counter Force [Others] Randomzx fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 03:47
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Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion.
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Oct 16, 2014 12:15
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Scrree posted:Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion. The family had superpowers that made them go crazy, dad decided to solve this issue by the handy expedient of child rape (of Kohaku). Also there was another kid, also called Shiki, but spelt differently as SHIKI, unlike our protag Shiki who is adopted. Just like his daddy, SHIKI is a child rapist. But Kohaku drugs him up into going crazy so SHIKI murders dad and is hidden away. After dad died, Akiha fired everyone except Hisui and Kohaku, and the two sisters switched personalities for some reason, thus confusing the gently caress out of everyone and especially Shiki who liked Kohaku. Anyway Kohaku plots some kind of convoluted revenge scheme against everyone, including drugging Shiki to make him go nuts, and eventually SHIKI dies, Kohaku realises she wuvs Shiki, and the game ends.
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Oct 16, 2014 12:37
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I wonder how much of that will survive in the Tsukihime remake, even if it was just background information. Specifically the Tohnos were demon/human hybrids that had a tendency to go insane. Also Makihisa only adopted protag-Shiki (after murdering his whole family/village) because he thought it was funny that he had the same name as his own son. Swell guy.
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Oct 16, 2014 13:23
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