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Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Gabriel Pope posted:

If this happens I preemptively apologize for loving up and making you waste a lynch on me for encouraging a fellow newbie.
the no lynch bugged me but one part of me felt at least thankful that people who had never played before didn't have to get lynched day one. but, that said, why were you protecting fathis in those posts, but willing to vote/case allen that whole time, if your motivation was to encourage newbies?

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the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe
Allen did not, at any point, make any attempt at playing. He pretty much jumped straight into "UGH WHY ARE YOU SO SERIOUS ABOUT TRYING TO PLAY THIS GAME" and from there it was a short hop to "FINE I QUIT IF YOU'RE GOING TO EVER SUSPECT ME OF ANYTHING." Read his post history, he literally never attempted to discuss or vote for anyone except himself. And yes, maybe I'm being petty because he insulted me but seriously, several players were AWOL for 99% of day 1 and still managed to contribute more than he did.

Fathis on the other hand at least posted tangentially relevant comments about other players. I said that I had a stronger feel about 3 specific other candidates because at the time I had a stronger feel about those 3 specific candidates. I encouraged him to post because 1) I wanted a better read on him and 2) I honestly thought his posts were entertaining :shobon: Also 3) given the high amount of lurking going on around here I didn't want to drive off someone who had been one of the most active posters, at least until I could get a better picture of whether he was scum.

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?

Gabriel Pope posted:

2) I honestly thought his posts were entertaining :shobon:

:toot:

s'okay you dudes can go on lynching me if you feel like it I'm not sure I'll have a lot of free time on my hands in the next couple days anyways :(

(You suckers will still lynch a newbee townie though :wink:)

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Fathis Munk posted:

:toot:

s'okay you dudes can go on lynching me if you feel like it I'm not sure I'll have a lot of free time on my hands in the next couple days anyways :(

(You suckers will still lynch a newbee townie though :wink:)
if you're town, do you think Gabe's defenses of you go so far as to imply he knows you're town

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?

Fast Luck posted:

if you're town, do you think Gabe's defenses of you go so far as to imply he knows you're town

No, I don't think he knows for sure. I think he has his doubts as most people seem to have but as he said he kinda enjoyed my lovely posts and thus was more reluctant to have me voted out. I think since we don't really know each other it's the little things that tip you over.

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?
I'm not even sure how he could know I'm town except if he's scum but then why would he defend me from getting lynched ?

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe
Fathis was my #4 lynch candidate, then my #3, then my #2, and is now pretty much my #1. I was down to Dragon/Fathis (and said as much) and then Dragonatrix starts seriousposting reads like this one:

Dragonatrix posted:

i sorta think the opposite atm looks more to me like hes flipflopping a lot more because hes confused and unsure about how to work things out right now so hes just running with the first thing he could latch onto for the time being

maybe hes scum maybe hes not but right now my gut says confused newbie town

It would have been pretty easy for him to say "yes Pez that scummy blacknyte sure is scummy." I guess Dragonatrix/blacknyte scumteam is possible but I'm not really feeling either one of them at this point.

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?

Gabriel Pope posted:

Fathis was my #4 lynch candidate, then my #3, then my #2, and is now pretty much my #1.

Looks like I got promoted

FATHIS MUNK #1 :toot:

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Fathis Munk posted:

I'm not even sure how he could know I'm town except if he's scum but then why would he defend me from getting lynched ?
his being scum was my implication. tyhere's lots of reasons he might want to protect you from being lynched, even if he's scum
a) maybe he enjoyed your posting!
b) your shitposting doesn't help town, so he'd rather you stay than some other townie
c) by saying he thinks youre town, when you flip town he could look good. "i tried to warn you guys"

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?

Fast Luck posted:

his being scum was my implication. tyhere's lots of reasons he might want to protect you from being lynched, even if he's scum
a) maybe he enjoyed your posting!
b) your shitposting doesn't help town, so he'd rather you stay than some other townie
c) by saying he thinks youre town, when you flip town he could look good. "i tried to warn you guys"

Man I'm not thinking backstabby enough for this game. I think next time I play I need to get into that mindset right away, I'm just not in the zone atm.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

also i don't really like how he's now completely reversing couyrse and saying you've been promoted to his #1 suspect. seems like he's trying to recover from me puylling that long list of posts supporting you, but just the other day he was posting "i still believe in you :shobon:" and i don't really think someone shoudl go from there to "#1 suspect fathis" this way umless they're scrambling.

Fathis Munk
Feb 23, 2013

??? ?

Fast Luck posted:

also i don't really like how he's now completely reversing couyrse and saying you've been promoted to his #1 suspect. seems like he's trying to recover from me puylling that long list of posts supporting you, but just the other day he was posting "i still believe in you :shobon:" and i don't really think someone shoudl go from there to "#1 suspect fathis" this way umless they're scrambling.

You know I have a big problem with you, you make good and compelling arguments but tend to be convincing enough that I wonder "What if I'm being played like a tool" :v:

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fast Luck posted:

also i don't really like how he's now completely reversing couyrse and saying you've been promoted to his #1 suspect. seems like he's trying to recover from me puylling that long list of posts supporting you, but just the other day he was posting "i still believe in you :shobon:" and i don't really think someone shoudl go from there to "#1 suspect fathis" this way umless they're scrambling.

At that time Fathis was still my #3 scum suspect and I said so. You quoted me saying so. Then you argued against Allen and I was not really feeling him after he peace outed at the start of D2, so I was at Dragonatrix and then Fathis, which again I said so and again you quoted me. You've documented my position shifting against Fathis as he's failed to come forward and participate as I'd hoped.

If you want to read me lowering my suspicions against Dragonatrix as scummy then that's on you, but you accused me in the first place for suspecting Dragonatrix over Fathis (despite the fact that you agreed at the time?)

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

I guess you had him #3 on your list, but when you include the caveat that you "still believe in him" it doesn't really feel like real suspicion. If you believed in him, even if you promote dragon in your towny rankings, why not Pez, why not Epsilon, why not hiipfire on your hit list?

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fast Luck posted:

I guess you had him #3 on your list, but when you include the caveat that you "still believe in him" it doesn't really feel like real suspicion. If you believed in him, even if you promote dragon in your towny rankings, why not Pez, why not Epsilon, why not hiipfire on your hit list?

Fathis was the 3rd scummiest read I had, but he was still contributing more than most of the player list due to how many lurkers we have. Epsilon and Pez have barely posted at all, and while that makes them suspicious we have way too many lurkers to just lynch them all for lurking suspiciously. I was going to ask for some more examination on (and posting from) Hiipfire but I wanted to work through my existing suspect list first, and by the time I see Dragonatrix's post I find I'm already the course de jour.

Besides, if I came in and posted "Ok, all my suspects have produced mitigating evidence except Fathis, so let's look at these less scummy but still weird posters like Hiipfire while we have time to kill before deadline" would you actually have read that as anything except more evidence that I'm scum protecting Fathis?

Also, where is Carpet Shark? He was one of the more helpful players through most of D1 and then he disappeared.

Pez
Feb 28, 2002

Thanks to CoX, my stairs will be protected forever!
I haven't posted a lot because I really don't know what to say at this point. I still suspect Blacknyte and Fathis but I don't want to keep repeating the same arguments over and over.

Fathis is my number 1 pick but I haven't changed votes yet. Waiting to see where the group goes so we don't have another no lynch day if possible.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fathis Munk posted:

Though tbh it looks like a lot of you have made your mind up and are going to lynch innocent ol' Fathis so whatever I guess :shrug:

Fathis Munk posted:

Man I'm not thinking backstabby enough for this game. I think next time I play I need to get into that mindset right away, I'm just not in the zone atm.

Posts like this are what's making me more comfortable with a Fathis lynch (aside from my other choices looking less scummy), because he's kind of overplaying the "poor innocent me" angle. It's not super damning and I'm not 100% convinced but I think he's a solid choice at this point. Also, there's been a lot of discussion and voting around Fathis so we can get a decent amount of information out of his flip (even if some of that may inadvertently incriminate me, should he turn out to be scum), whereas if we just lynch one of the random lurkers we'll have hardly any material to read after their flip.

blacknyte
Oct 13, 2014

Dragonatrix posted:

no i do not think either kerros very blatant uncertainty or hiipfires joke were in fact scumslips

glad i could help you better understand this thing called "jokes"

Ok, it still does not look like a joke to me in context with the other posts around it. ##unvote

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Your vote was actually on Gabriel. :lol:

blacknyte
Oct 13, 2014
Oh, right: ##vote Gabriel

The Carpet Shark
Sep 2, 2014

:coolfish:
Sorry I've been away guys, I got bored last night and never posted. I'll be around all night tonight.

There are so many lurkers in this game, and to be honest I'm pretty lost here. Here are some of my thoughts right now. I've bolded the names of the people I'm talking about just to make this easier to read.

I have to say that I never really felt like Dragonatrix was particularly scummy so it is weird to me that people were pointing them out. A lot of players were only tossing in a few posts at the time so it kind of seems like people who were pointing out Dragonatrix in particular were looking to make up viable reasons to frame them. I think it was blacknyte who originally voted this way though, and all of blacknyte's votes have been strange.

Speaking of blacknyte, they're pretty much a puzzle I can't even begin to solve. Apparently they only signed up to the forums like a week ago, but they've also mentioned hearing mafia vets talk about poo poo, so I truly have no idea what the extent of their understanding of this game is.

I didn't want to say this earlier because I know there's a rule that you shouldn't talk about ongoing games, but the game Hiipfire was in just ended and their posting looked exactly as it does now, i.e. there's not a lot of it and they aren't invested in the game. I see no indication they're scum, just someone who signs up for games without playing?? why tho

Fast Luck's been a big contributor and everything they've said has made sense to me, but I was reading their post history and one thing stood out. At some point Fast Luck lists Dragonatrix as one of the people he feels is scummy. Then much later when Gabriel brings up an opinion on Dragonatrix Fast Luck quotes it and then votes Dragonatrix:

Gabriel Pope posted:

Note that I still think Dragonatrix is scummy (even moreso than Fathis in my book) and I am not impressed by his jumping on the Fathis bandwagon, and yes, his vote on Kerro is pretty troubling because sticking a 4th vote on someone as a jokevote and then disappearing is really sketchy, but the fact that he was being facetious is not by itself evidence that he's scum. Yet that's the only thing that you keep harping on as justification for your vote.

Fast Luck posted:

Dragonatrix is currently my strongest feeling also.

##vote Dragonatrix

But he didn't give his own justification here. It's possible he could have been putting Dragonatrix on his suspected scum list so that he had less explaining to do later (alternatively he could have just bumped Dragonatrix up the list, I know). It just feels a bit weird to me.

I've cooled a bit on Fathis. The strangest thing they've done at the moment is point out Fast Luck as possible scum a few time, and the reason I find it strange is how it was done. It was always in a sort of 'sideline' way. Fathis, why do you feel Fast Luck is scummy? It's okay to throw about accusations or elaborate on why you feel something, we may have missed something you didn't, or we may view people's motivations differently than you do.

Gabriel Pope seems town to me at the moment. It's true that he's been hopping all over the place like a box of jumping beans in terms of his scum reads and he tends to get weird fixations on certain people but it seems like he's just trying to figure out what to do. A strange thing he did though was mention Dragonatrix moving lower on his scum list because they've been posting more in the past while, but Dragonatrix has only made one more post.

Gabriel Pope posted:

I'm off of blacknyte now that his odd posting/voting has been accounted for, I haven't written off Allen yet but he's a lot less pressing now that he's seemingly gone AWOL, and now that Dragonatrix is participating more and being helpful my suspicions have eased up.

So my list is pretty much down to Fathis at this point anyhow. I just felt bad because he seemed to want to participate and have a good time playing Mafia.

The rest of this seems genuine though. I also felt bad about possibly making it harder for Fathis to enjoy the game so I can understand easing off the pressure. We should also keep in mind though that we're all newbies and we've got to vote out someone, so don't feel too bad if you really feel someone is scum! But like I said, I'm less sure about Fathis now. I'd like to hear from them though!

I'm keeping an eye on Pez. They seemed super town to me but then I began to wonder if they were being so inconspicuous for a reason. Last game I played I made the mistake of brushing off one player as completely town and never really looking harder at them so I read through again. They've been dropping in fairly consistently but they have been staying out of everyone's way. I feel like the best scum move to make when you aren't confident in your ability to make cases and come across as town would be to contribute things, but keep it minimal. That way people acknowledge you're playing the game but it's harder to pick through what you've said and call you out on poo poo. Pez's tone has also been very light-hearted which helps keep things non-confrontational. And I feel like if you rolled scum you'd want to be keeping tabs on the game, which would be another reason for their relatively decent presence.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts and I am eager to hear what your guys' are.

The Carpet Shark
Sep 2, 2014

:coolfish:

The Carpet Shark posted:

Sorry I've been away guys, I got bored last night and never posted. I'll be around all night tonight.

I've been writing this for a while, 'all night' was a lot longer back then. :cheeky:

blacknyte
Oct 13, 2014
I have read quite a few mafia games and thought I could jump into this game and immediately be productive. It's much more difficult actually playing the game than it is yelling at the monitor while spectating games.

I thought the Dragonatrix vote was good but now am unsure after he said that statement was a joke. I need to try to see if I can read what we have so far thinking that I am a spectator I guess. I will try that.

The Carpet Shark
Sep 2, 2014

:coolfish:

blacknyte posted:

I have read quite a few mafia games and thought I could jump into this game and immediately be productive. It's much more difficult actually playing the game than it is yelling at the monitor while spectating games.

This is true indeed.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

The Carpet Shark posted:

I'm keeping an eye on Pez.

One of the reasons I'm more interested in lynching Fathis than I was before is that one of the few things Pez has been doing is consistently pushing for Fathis: he started out seemingly joke-voting him and then has been "sticking to his gut" without really providing much explanation or reasoning. I'm having a hard time reading him but seeing how Fathis flips could shed some light on Pez.

I still wish we had a stronger lynch because we've only got 2 shots before we're done, but at the moment it seems like the best thing we have to go off of.

re: Dragonatrix, one good post is still sadly more than most people have contributed so I stand by my assessment. Again, he's not off my list altogether but at this point I don't have much reason to suspect him over Epsilon or Toaster or any of the other lurker types. Also he did at least explain the concept of jokes to blacknyte, too.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

The Carpet Shark posted:

I've been writing this for a while, 'all night' was a lot longer back then. :cheeky:
my dragonatrix vote was relatively early in the new day. i had an unsupported hunch that dragon could be scum, and gabe was saying dragon could be scum too, so i thought i'd throw a vote behind it and see if anything interesting happened. nothing really did

interesting you find gabe to appear town. personally, i've been leaning toward him for my vote, very begrudgingly because he's one of the most active posters, and i definitely dont want to kill him if he's town but it just seems like the strongest case to me atm.

i showed up with 45 minutes til lynch to try to get something going, and hed been around recently but wasnt there to help build any momentum toward a lynch. he showed up with 4 minutes til deadline and an excuse.

then the stuff from earlier... gabe says fathis was third on his scum list, but being third on someone's scum list really means very little, and fathis was third with the condition that, well, actually, gabe still believed in him. so the protestations that fathis was always under suspicion, after that and all the other defenses gabe had mounted for fathis, are hard to buy.

i just feel like gabe would most likely be scum to behave that way. scum protecting fellow scum, or scum protecting a town player he wanted in the game for whatever his reasons might have been. called out on it, and he immediately about faces, which scum might also do, either to protect oneself and take down the other guy if the other is town, or to start distancing a bit if the other person is scum.

town gabe would have been bending over backward to defend fathis in all those posts only to turn against him with little in between. i get wanting to look out for new people, but i dont know if id defend someone i truly was suspicious of, at least to the extent gabe did.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe
I mean Dragonatrix's post about blacknyte wasn't that good but that's just how low the bar for participation has been set here.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Gabriel Pope posted:

One of the reasons I'm more interested in lynching Fathis than I was before is that one of the few things Pez has been doing is consistently pushing for Fathis: he started out seemingly joke-voting him and then has been "sticking to his gut" without really providing much explanation or reasoning. I'm having a hard time reading him but seeing how Fathis flips could shed some light on Pez.
What would we learn about Pez if Fathis flips scum? That Pez was wrong? Or if Fathis flips town?

Gabriel Pope posted:

I still wish we had a stronger lynch because we've only got 2 shots before we're done, but at the moment it seems like the best thing we have to go off of.
poo poo, really? 12 alive, three scum. we fail, 10 alive, 3 scum. we fail a second time, 8 alive, 3 scum. hmm i think we've got 3 shots, but yeah that kind of sucks heh. the no lynch cost us a shot

Kerro
Nov 3, 2002

Did you marry a man who married the sea? He looks right through you to the distant grey - calling, calling..

The Carpet Shark posted:

Fast Luck's been a big contributor and everything they've said has made sense to me, but I was reading their post history and one thing stood out. At some point Fast Luck lists Dragonatrix as one of the people he feels is scummy. Then much later when Gabriel brings up an opinion on Dragonatrix Fast Luck quotes it and then votes Dragonatrix:

But he didn't give his own justification here. It's possible he could have been putting Dragonatrix on his suspected scum list so that he had less explaining to do later (alternatively he could have just bumped Dragonatrix up the list, I know). It just feels a bit weird to me.

I'm not quite sure what seems weird about this? I could be wrong, but Fast Luck is the person I feel most certain is town at the moment. Is it just that he seems to have gone from seeing Dragonatrix as 'scummy' to his strongest read without any apparent process in thread about it?

I'm also not quite sure what to make of the reactions to Allen and Fathis. Both of them have done a 'welp, vote for me then I can't win' defeatist kinda thing, and in both cases people have backed off them (less so in Fathis' case but you mention it) and I want to know if people are backing off because they think that these players are not scum, or because they feel bad about it. I know I get super-frustrated when I get cased for what feels to me like no good reason and I don't like doing that to someone else, but it also shouldn't get in the way of voting for people who are acting scummy.

I'm really having a hard time following blacknyte - it kinda feels like he's responding to stuff that's already well and truly passed us by. There's a lot happened since Dragonatrix explained his joke vote, why not comment on some of that?

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

third lynch fails, 6 alive, 3 scum, that's game. if only we hadn't lost a player before taking any shots, it'd still be 7 alive, and we'd have a 4th attempt to go.

Gabriel Pope posted:

I mean Dragonatrix's post about blacknyte wasn't that good but that's just how low the bar for participation has been set here.
im feelin ya here. it's basically me, you, kerro, and carpet shark at this point in terms of good poo poo content creation

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fast Luck posted:

What would we learn about Pez if Fathis flips scum? That Pez was wrong? Or if Fathis flips town?
poo poo, really? 12 alive, three scum. we fail, 10 alive, 3 scum. we fail a second time, 8 alive, 3 scum. hmm i think we've got 3 shots, but yeah that kind of sucks heh. the no lynch cost us a shot

Day 2 and it's 9 town vs 3 scum. Day 3 we'll be 7 vs 3. Day 4 we'll be 5 vs 3 and scum wins by majority. So we have a lynch on day 2 and a lynch on day 3 and then we're done.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fast Luck posted:

What would we learn about Pez if Fathis flips scum? That Pez was wrong? Or if Fathis flips town?

If Fathis flips scum then Pez is right :confused: If he flips town it's not definitive proof that Pez is scum but it definitely makes his focus on Fathis a lot more suspicious, so it might give us a starting point.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

If on day four, we have 5 town vs 3 scum, scum doesn't have a majority unless we mislynch, so we get a third chance to lynch correctly even if we fail on day two and three. I guess by "done" you mean done guessing wrongly?

The Carpet Shark
Sep 2, 2014

:coolfish:

Fast Luck posted:

my dragonatrix vote was relatively early in the new day. i had an unsupported hunch that dragon could be scum, and gabe was saying dragon could be scum too, so i thought i'd throw a vote behind it and see if anything interesting happened. nothing really did

I've seen many people not justify early votes (and I tend to just not vote at all early on) so fair enough. You're definitely active enough that we don't have to worry about you 'accidentally' leaving it there.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

also there could be a doctor to block a kill!

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Gabriel Pope posted:

If Fathis flips scum then Pez is right :confused: If he flips town it's not definitive proof that Pez is scum but it definitely makes his focus on Fathis a lot more suspicious, so it might give us a starting point.
I don't tihnk it tells us a lot either way. if fathis flips town, it means pez was wrong but doesn't really throw him under heavy suspicion imo. if fathis flips scum, it means pez was right, but it's not like voting against other scum players can never happen. maybe less likely in a newbie game, but this also requires us to be right about fathis.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe
Oh doy :doh: Sorry, I keep mixing up 5 town as opposed to 5 living players.

Ok, that makes me feel a lot better--even if I wind up taking one for the team there will be 2 more shots to find scum. Still not looking forward to that possibility, especially after we already hosed up day 1.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Fast Luck posted:

I don't tihnk it tells us a lot either way. if fathis flips town, it means pez was wrong but doesn't really throw him under heavy suspicion imo.

Not by itself but Carpet Shark makes a good case. We don't have that much to go off of, but it would be better than nothing.

The Carpet Shark
Sep 2, 2014

:coolfish:

Kerro posted:

I'm not quite sure what seems weird about this? I could be wrong, but Fast Luck is the person I feel most certain is town at the moment. Is it just that he seems to have gone from seeing Dragonatrix as 'scummy' to his strongest read without any apparent process in thread about it?

I try not to be 'certain' anyone is town which is why I gather stuff that may seem like small potatoes but strikes me as odd or having a motivation I don't understand. You never know what could be useful! But yeah, it was that there was no process that we could see.

Kerro posted:

I'm also not quite sure what to make of the reactions to Allen and Fathis. Both of them have done a 'welp, vote for me then I can't win' defeatist kinda thing, and in both cases people have backed off them (less so in Fathis' case but you mention it) and I want to know if people are backing off because they think that these players are not scum, or because they feel bad about it. I know I get super-frustrated when I get cased for what feels to me like no good reason and I don't like doing that to someone else, but it also shouldn't get in the way of voting for people who are acting scummy.

Throwing an emotional fit about people voting you out would be a super lame thing to do as scum. I guess I just can't see scum doing it without feeling really cheap, which is why I stopped looking Allen's way. This may just me ascribing my own feelings to other players though.

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Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988

Fathis's response to being suspected hasn't scared me off him. I could see scum saying the things he's said. Allen's response is a different story. He self-voted twice and checked out. I just don't see a scum player deciding, okay, I'm going to self-vote two days in a row and then stop posting. Especially not a new scum player in their first ever game pulling out that trick. Besides, I don't even know if MMM will allow that. He could replace him out or mod-prod him into posting more or being mod killed.

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