|
I always hear about how life was so horrible in these countries. Now fully believe that life in the iron curtain was much worse than in the west. However, seeing the data of opinions of those that lived under those regimes (as shown on the link in the bottom) there seems to be some divide. Hell some of those that lived under the regimes preferred living under communism than capitalism. I'm wondering why (if it is true)? http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/01/20/the-post-communist-generation-in-the-former-eastern-bloc/ My main questions: - Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? - Was living under communism as bad as the west made it out to be? - Why do people in Hungary and Yugoslavia liked the days communism so much? And if they do why don't they vote communist parties into their government? - Were there any advantages living under communism than capitalism? - How did day to day life differ living under communism than capitalism?
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 05:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 02:01 |
|
|
This is something I've always been curious about. It's hard to find solid information about what it was actually like living in communist countries. It's hard to separate cold war propaganda from ideology and whatnot.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 07:40
|
|
|
Number Two Stunna posted:This is something I've always been curious about. It's hard to find solid information about what it was actually like living in communist countries. It's hard to separate cold war propaganda from ideology and whatnot. the answers will vary greatly depending on the former communist state. I lived in the Czech Republic for about 6 years and was always fascinated by the kind of questions OP is asking - Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? A: many things were better, everybody for the most part was equal, people took care of each other and were active patrons of their community. Everybody lent a hand and felt like they were contributing to the world directly around them (although probably not on any kind of national level) Here in the west, even the local government are services are sorta just taken for granted, we aren`t all in it together. - Was living under communism as bad as the west made it out to be? A: Gonna vary greatly, but in Czech rep some people would hide pigs in their basement or other types of clandestine farming, it reminded me sort of how people will hide marijuana grow operations today. - Why do people in Hungary and Yugoslavia liked the days communism so much? And if they do why don't they vote communist parties into their government? A: Dont have experience with those regions, but it seems like most of the communist parties these days are too retarded to be trusted running a country. - Were there any advantages living under communism than capitalism? A: I think we really lack any connection to our community and our neighbors as a whole, we dont give a poo poo about our fellow man. Sure there are more opportunities, but you`re more likely to fall through the cracks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 08:52
|
|
|
I would like for you look up Nicolae Ceaușescu. He was the Communist leader for life in Romania. And I doubt anyone has anything nice to say about the bastard. He was a loving rear end in a top hat how of the highest order. I'm not going to say he's worse than Hitler, but if we're going an a Godwin scale where Hitler is a ten, then Ceaușescu rates at least an 8. He was a powermad bastard who outlawed abortions in Romania, because he wanted a bunch of Romanian soldiers to fight off the inevitable Russian invasion that he thought would happen. And never bothered to fund his orphanages. If you want to see horrible images that make Sara Mclaghlin videos look like Teletubbies, look up Romanian orphanages. Once the iron curtain fell, the people took their fearless leader out back, killed him, and tossed him in a ditch. I assume that some people took some turns pissing on his grave. Romanians really hated that rear end in a top hat. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Oct 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 13:24
|
|
|
thrakkorzog posted:I would like for you look up Nicolae Ceaușescu. He was the Communist leader for life in Romania. And I doubt anyone has anything nice to say about the bastard. He was a loving rear end in a top hat how of the highest order. I'm not going to say he's worse than Hitler, but if we're going an a Godwin scale where Hitler is a ten, then Ceaușescu rates at least an 8. I have family in Romania, and you'd be shocked at how many people there pine for the return of Communism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
I lived and worked in an eastern bloc country for two years, as it was making its transition from communism to a free country. As an American working in the embassy, I didn't live there in the true sense of the word, but I had more of an insider's perspective than most. A couple of observations: - They had free medical care and prescription drugs under communism, but the quality was what one would expect from an eastern bloc country. For example, the Emergency Room had a concrete floor, dirty sheets, and all the doctors, nurses, and attendants were smoking everywhere. And this was the hospital in one of the "better" districts. Yes, even though it was communist and "everyone was equal," there were still different classes of people, and some did live better than others. Another thing I noticed, even though medical care was "free," I saw everyone slipping envelopes to their attending physicians. I found out later that these envelopes contained small amounts of cash, and this was customary if you wanted treatment. I saw the same thing in the pharmacies. - When the Soviets left, a very large majority of the government services basically collapsed. Since these people had little or no experience with capitalism, most of them had no idea how to make it without government help. Then you had the giant influx of business people from Western Europe (Germany, Austria, Belgium, the UK) and the US swooping in to take advantage. I guess when you go from being supported - more or less - by the government (even a communist one) to living on the street, communism doesn't look too bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 21:56
|
|
Cat Army
|
punk rebel ecks posted:- Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? quote:- Was living under communism as bad as the west made it out to be?  is deliberately confusing the two for some while now.How bad it was depends heavily on the era we're talking about. Life in the US was pretty bad in the early 30ies, too. quote:- Why do people in Hungary and Yugoslavia liked the days communism so much? And if they do why don't they vote communist parties into their government? quote:- Were there any advantages living under communism than capitalism? One difference was that social connections were more important. In capitalism, if you have money, all the doors are open for you. Unless you wish to be the president or a bigtime CEO, having connections isn't essential. In the Soviet system, people had to rely on relatives and acquaintances for everyday things, like say finding spare parts for your car. Social networking was an important skill, and people saw eachother more. quote:- How did day to day life differ living under communism than capitalism? pigdog fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Oct 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 23:52
|
|
|
Wow thanks a lot for the responses. I'd love to hear more. I know about the difference in quality of life between the eastern bloc and the western bloc, however I wonder if most of that was due to communism or the fact there was always a gap (such as north and south america).
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 05:05
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:the fact there was always a gap (such as north and south america). I don't understand what this means
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 12:03
|
|
|
As a Romanian born in '94, I'll do my best to contribute but everything related to Communism is only second hand info so take into account the fact that my family/teachers might be bullshitting.punk rebel ecks posted:- Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? punk rebel ecks posted:- Why do people in Hungary and Yugoslavia liked the days communism so much? And if they do why don't they vote communist parties into their government? punk rebel ecks posted:- Was living under communism as bad as the west made it out to be? Another fun pastime was waiting in line. If you wanted meat, milk, eggs or other high class food products, you had to wake up at 4-5 am, stand in line for hours on end to get your ration. Our great country needed to pay off huge amounts of debt (mostly caused by WW2 I think?) and this meant everyone needed to chip in by making a personal sacrifice and not getting fat on bacon like the soulless capitalists. Naturally, if you knew someone who had a friend who had a girlfriend whose dad could help... TV was also "rationed", as in you only had a few hours of it every day. Between 8 and 10 pm to be precise because you had to be well rested to work the next day of course! Shows in Hungarian and German were gutted because they affected national spirit and most of what was left only talked about the beloved leader and his wife. I think cartoons were on Sunday mornings, though I doubt most kids grew up on the same ones as Americans did. Censorship extended to all other forms of art and media as well, which led to some pretty crazy and/or neat poetry being written that dissed Ceausescu through metaphor and heavy abstractization. Funny enough, things were pretty liberal before Ceausescu took a trip to China and North Korea and thought "this is really sweet, I wish we had more dictatorship back at home". Keep this in mind, my fellow Americans, if you decide to import freedom to North Korea.  Schools nowadays barely teach any of this poo poo (if at all), though that might be my limited experience. Theoretical high schools (as opposed to vocational ones) have classes split into focusing on science or humanities, and I was in a natural science one. History stopped somewhere before the start of WW2 where we were taught the basics of each dictatorship in Europe around that time then it all cut off  My high school teacher thought this was lovely and that everyone needs to learn how communism happened and what it meant for country and individual. Fun fact: he got in trouble with the police sometime in the 80s because he had long hair. No idea if dudes with long hair were somehow against communism or the cops that gave him poo poo over it were simply bored.quote:I wonder if most of that was due to communism or the fact there was always a gap (such as north and south america). Most electronics and various consumer products Americans took for granted were extremely hard to get a hold of because of low supply and high prices unaccessible to the average person. I remember we only got a color TV sometime in the 90s and that was the poo poo. Online friends sometimes feel nostalgic about growing up playing on whatever console while gamed on a Athlon 1800 and GeForce 4400 way until 2011 or 2012. It still carries out today, products such as electronics are priced on an international level and good luck buying stuff with a $250/month minimum wage. It's also why :files: is a widespread phenomenon, not many people are willing to shell out $20 for a video game when that money could feed them for a week. This semester I'm taking a Java class and the professor literally said "Well, I recommend reading these books or looking through the exercises in them. I have all of them in .pdf format on my laptop but file sharing is illegal. Unrelatedly, I'll go grab a coffee and leave said laptop open, you can use it if you want". How's paying for textbooks treating you, capitalist dogs? 
M. Morgan fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Oct 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 12:52
|
|
|
Holy poo poo M. Morgan, thanks for the incredible post. I'm curious however, how did job searching and hiring work under communism? Did the state literally assign to you what they wanted to do or could you apply to different positions? M. Morgan posted:Another fun pastime was waiting in line. If you wanted meat, milk, eggs or other high class food products, you had to wake up at 4-5 am, stand in line for hours on end to get your ration. Our great country needed to pay off huge amounts of debt (mostly caused by WW2 I think?) and this meant everyone needed to chip in by making a personal sacrifice and not getting fat on bacon like the soulless capitalists. Naturally, if you knew someone who had a friend who had a girlfriend whose dad could help... I wonder if any of the communist countries solved the scarcity problem and thus didn't have to deal with lines. IIRC Bulgaria or some other country got pretty close. M. Morgan posted:Online friends sometimes feel nostalgic about growing up playing on whatever console while gamed on a Athlon 1800 and GeForce 4400 way until 2011 or 2012. This certainly explains why Eastern Europeans were so overrepresented with Counterstrike 1.6 when I used to play it two or three years ago. Arnold of Soissons posted:I don't understand what this means People always commented how communism was horrible because there was such a stark difference in quality of life between eastern europe and western europe. While it definitely had something to do with this, I feel that it wasn't fair since there was always a gap between them. There was a gap between eastern europe and western europe long before communism got involved.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 15:42
|
|
|
Nostalgia for the past has always been a part of human nature. People always feel poo poo was better in the past as opposed to the present - regardless of how hosed up the past was, it's always much easier to focus on the better times in the past. Kind of like people in the US view the 50's/60's as America's golden age for some reason, despite the fact that I'm 100% positive that no one in the modern age would actually want to teleport back to that time if given the chance. Views of life under Communism are similarly colored, I'm sure.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 17:04
|
|
|
- Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? General equality and the feeling of safety and contentedness. The iron rice bowl of chinese socialism kept hundreds of millions employed and basically taken care of as long as you didn't rock the boat. - Was living under communism as bad as the west made it out to be? I don't think so. Both my parents had terrible infectious diseases when they were kids (TB) that the magic of socialism managed to send into remission. I doubt under a US-backed nationalist government they would've had the treatment they did. - Were there any advantages living under communism than capitalism? My dad likens communism to a true meritocracy. When he graduated from college with a degree in veterinary medicine jobs were allocated based on class rank. So he graduated 3rd in his class so he was 3rd in line to pick the job from a big list that he wanted. Of course, not all the jobs paid the same or were equally enjoyable. But even the biggest fuckup who graduated last still got something, while here in the US even top students in physics and biology aren't guaranteed poo poo due to the magic of the marketplace and degree inflation. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Holy poo poo M. Morgan, thanks for the incredible post. quote:I wonder if any of the communist countries solved the scarcity problem and thus didn't have to deal with lines. IIRC Bulgaria or some other country got pretty close. You got paid inconvertible funny money, and could pay for the goods in the prison commissary at the selection and prices the state deemed fit. Availability of goods was another level the state would wield to get people to move to bumfuck Siberia to man a missile silo or an uranium mine, for example. It's not that they couldn't have more and better stuff available; the stuff they had was just "good enough" for the prisoners, and could also be used to influence them. Instead of spoiling the population with, say, toilet paper, why not use all the money (most of the money) on cool military hardware like a laser tank made with big rear end solid rubies? The state had the interest in keeping you alive and useful in some manner, just like the prison has the responsibility of keeping the prisoners alive and hopefully usefully occupied - hence free education and healthcare, such as they were. The state definitely wasn't interested in any pursuit of happiness however. So very much like prison or conscription service. quote:People always commented how communism was horrible because there was such a stark difference in quality of life between eastern europe and western europe. While it definitely had something to do with this, I feel that it wasn't fair since there was always a gap between them. There was a gap between eastern europe and western europe long before communism got involved. pigdog fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Oct 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 19:50
|
|
|
It's not just a matter of communism vs. capitalism. It's was fairly common for a while to hear older people from former Yugoslavia say that they feel life was better under the days of Tito. But this is not so much due to the different economic systems, it's because Tito's strong federalist government and Yugoslav nationalism counteracted a lot of the regional nationalistic and ethnocentric movements that came to a head in the 1990's. This is true in a few other areas as well, for example nothing like the violent nationalist Chechen movement could really exist in the USSR days due to just how oppressive the government was (except for a brief flare up during WW2 that took advantage of the chaos of German invasion). So, areas that became war torn starting in the 1990's have been more peaceful under Communist regimes, but at the expense of forcing everyone, especially non-Russians within Russia or minorities in other countries, to forget their ethnic heritage and stamping out local cultures. It was a forced and ultimately artificial peacefulness that was the result of oppression, but one can still understand why even that might be preferable for those who have suffered in the violence and chaos that erupted in some places after the fall of communism. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 25, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
pigdog posted:I think as the previous poster said, if you graduated at the top of the class you might have been given a choice, otherwise yep, they assigned you to wherever the system wanted, which could have as well been bumfuck Siberia. There was no freedom of movement like Western life takes for granted; you had a "propiska", a residency permit for a specific area in your passport, and if you didn't have one for the town or area you were interested in, you couldn't get a job or a place to live. It was very difficult to get a permit to live in Moscow for example. Assigning residences were completely in the hands of the state as is. This sounds absolutely horrifying. pigdog posted:Look, it really helps to think of the whole Eastern Block as one big prison camp. If you lived there, you had the same (lack of) rights as prisoners, and the state had the same rights as the guards/warden with regards to you, i.e. pretty complete. If you watch a prison drama, it's sooooo similar I can't tell you how similar it is. Censorship and bootlegging and smuggling necessities and all. Thanks very informative. Yeah the more a look at Communism the more it seems like it's similar to prison or a group home. I really don't even like calling it Communism. I think I would prefer to call it Fascist Statism or Orderism. The more I think about it the more surprised I am that it actually got off ground as a movement of any kind. It's so...strange. Like a cult or something. I'm really interested in hearing about Yugoslavia though. From what I understand there was a large GDP growth (and wage growth) in the country and people there had a fair bit of right (such as the ability to leave the country). Peven Stan posted:- Why do a lot of people miss the communist days? What country did your father go to? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 00:11
|
|
|
M. Morgan posted:Schools nowadays barely teach any of this poo poo (if at all), though that might be my limited experience. Theoretical high schools (as opposed to vocational ones) have classes split into focusing on science or humanities, and I was in a natural science one. History stopped somewhere before the start of WW2 where we were taught the basics of each dictatorship in Europe around that time then it all cut off If it makes you feel any better, my high school in Canada didn't go out of its way to teach anyone about anything past about 1867. I think it is in the curriculum, but they just never got around to it. Instead we spent a pile of time on learning about aboriginal cultures, explorers, governors of New France and stuff about the fur trade. It is all interesting, but it hardly matters in day to day life what a made beaver is or who Samuel de Champlian was. Someone I went to college with was so ignorant to the events of the 20th century she didn't even know that nuclear weapons were used to end the second world war.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 00:13
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:This sounds absolutely horrifying. Why wouldn't you call Communism Communism?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 20:32
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I always hear about how life was so horrible in these countries. Now fully believe that life in the iron curtain was much worse than in the west. However, seeing the data of opinions of those that lived under those regimes (as shown on the link in the bottom) there seems to be some divide. Hell some of those that lived under the regimes preferred living under communism than capitalism. I'm wondering why (if it is true)? My parents grew up in Soviet controlled Poland, and so I heard a lot of their stories. They left in 1990 with my brother and I. These are just recollections from my parents and some of my friends and relatives who still live there. Lines. There were lines for everything. Bribery. Communism sucked because while everyone was supposed to be equal, some were more equal than others. When my mother was pregnant with my brother and then later me, she had to bribe the doctor in attendance to be sure that she would get decent care during the delivery. Not five star, just decent care. My mom worked as a checkout girl - this was the best way to ensure that she could streamline supplies to her babies and friends, because the government controlled stores sure weren't. Schooling was much more limited. You were tested in your early teens, and sent to either high school or a trade class. While it works for some, because people rather work with their hands, it missed some people. My dad was creative and handy, he got specialized mason training. He eventually self educated himself here in America, and started doing some really nice small scale architectural design work (Houses and small businesses, mostly). You were pretty much pigeon holed into a trade or profession, and it was difficult to get out of that. I have friends and family in Poland now who have the education to do whatever they want, but a lack of job opportunities. I know someone who has an accounting degree, but makes more money as a hairdresser freelancing. A bunch of my cousins have moved West towards Ireland and England to seek opportunities there through the openness of the EU, but have encountered a lot of racism, much like you would see here in American with the Hispanic populations. I think people look back on communism fondly because they've had time and fading memory to rough out the edges. That, and they hear about their kids being snubbed in Dublin and think back to a nationalistic time when "things were better."
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 00:20
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Thanks very informative. Yeah the more a look at Communism the more it seems like it's similar to prison or a group home. I really don't even like calling it Communism. I think I would prefer to call it Fascist Statism or Orderism. The more I think about it the more surprised I am that it actually got off ground as a movement of any kind. It's so...strange. Like a cult or something. I suppose back in 1910s it was sociopolitical cutting edge, and the way capitalism looked like back then, its emergence wasn't surprising. While the founders probably didn't quite have a good idea in the first place of how it should work, then just like any revolution or violence, it quickly went off that track, too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 01:00
|
|
|
pigdog posted:I suppose back in 1910s it was sociopolitical cutting edge, and the way capitalism looked like back then, its emergence wasn't surprising. While the founders probably didn't quite have a good idea in the first place of how it should work, then just like any revolution or violence, it quickly went off that track, too. It's sad because Socialism is about giving people more freedoms not less. Cooperatives, credit unions, and participatory budgeting. Yes the strong hand of the state can play into socialism but only to a degree. Hogge Wild posted:Why wouldn't you call Communism Communism? It doesn't work nor enacted like the theory. Communism is suppose to be an economy like a commune. What we saw in these countries was essentially the state owning everything (statism).
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 02:54
|
|
|
How was grocery store shopping? My dad was in Germany when the wall fell and went into east Germany on a train and said it was like when he grew up in the 50's but its the late 80's early 90's.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 03:16
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I always hear about how life was so horrible in these countries. Now fully believe that life in the iron curtain was much worse than in the west. However, seeing the data of opinions of those that lived under those regimes (as shown on the link in the bottom) there seems to be some divide. Hell some of those that lived under the regimes preferred living under communism than capitalism. I'm wondering why (if it is true)? 90% of my family came over to the US before WW2, (most during WW1, as many of my family were big mucky mucks with the Empire (I'm like a 7-8th or so cousin to Franz Ferdinand? I need to dig out the family tree, but we were definitely the aristocracy) and when it started to dissolve they started emigrating, and then most came over en masse after the writing was clearly on the wall that the Austro-Hungarian empire was truly kaput, but there were some that stuck around because they liked their land, and they heard from those that had emigrated about the cramped conditions (honestly, not that cramped-my grandmother grew up in a rather spacious 4bd house in Forrest Hills - just it had a postage stamp of a yard) and "poor" living in America and stuck it out, even into communism, so i got to hear all about Hungary under communist rule when cousins and stuff started coming over in the 90's. Hungary was a sorta special case in the USSR in that it always had somewhat open borders - unlike say, East Germany, for much of the cold war there wasn't even a fence through most of the border, and it had much looser visa requirements to go visit the west. Largely because there was a nearly constant pushback against communisim in the country, so Moscow sorta kinda realized that they could be at a near constant civil war with Hungary or let it operate as a member state with its own sorta luxuries, and had a fairly decentralized economy like Yugoslavia's. Don't get me wrong, there were still some serious shortages, particularly with housing, but it never approached the levels of most of the other Soviet states. (IIRC, Czechloslovokia was the only communist country with a better economy). So it sorta had the best of both - there was the sense of equality and whatnot, but it wasn't as much of a "prison state" as pigdog put it, since many Hungarians could visit the west at some freedom (Mom got a taste of what Hungary under communism was like - she has a few fun stories about things like her cousins being amazed at "all the channels" that were available with such great reception in the late 70's, since they had UHF and stuff, whereas in Hungary they had like, 1 and then what they could pick up from other countries if they were lucky. But the fact that her cousins were able to go visit them for two weeks in the first place (and that they weren't begging to defect) says a lot), there was limited KGB involvement, there was moderate freedom of speech/the press, and the moderately decentralized economy meant that you didn't have the same "if we want to we'll send you to siberia" thing that you had in Russia. Don't get me wrong, there was still a lot of issues, and much of the fondness for what things were like under communism are a lot of nostalgia/grass is greener, but I know from personal anecdotes (which, don't forget, are largely tainted because the family was aristocracy before communism), Hungary under communism really wasn't as bad as many other soviet states. It certainly wasn't wine and roses, but it was quite a lot better than other places. Part of the nostalgia is with how lovely the economy is at the moment globally, and at least under communism there was a guarantee of *a* job, generally in something you wouldn't hate to the point of wanting to blow your brains out rather than go to work another day. Plus the concept of needing health insurance just boggles the mind of some of my relatives, who never had to worry about that under communism. Which might be why places like Hungary have a lot more fondness for life pre 1990 than someone from one of the harsher soviet states. E: Like Ytalia said below, it is a little hard to gauge "quality of life" stuff, just because of the massive differences between capitalism and communism. For my relatives, their quality of life actually took a nosedive when they moved here for a little while because they were so used to not having to worry about starving to death/not being able to pay for heat/being able to have medical treatment/free education including post-secondary etc that to be poor immigrants they really took a number of years to get up and running and make it to the middle class. Like much of Hungary had a fairly even quality of life for most residents. It wasn't a particularly good quality of life, but it was mostly even. Here in the US, your quality of life depends very much on many factors completely out of your control (race, area of birth, wealth of your parents, the local school system preparing you well enough to get a decent job, etc), where if you're poor and from a poor area, you have a good chance of having a much lower quality of life than someone from even Stalin-era Russia, but if you're middle class or above, you have a much higher quality of life than anyone from any Warsaw Pact nation could have hoped for during the cold war. And a lot of it was little stuff. RockNRoll (actually, if you have Showtime, they've been running the documentary about Billy Joel's visit to the USSR in 87 - at that point even Russia had loosened up a lot, but you can see how a lot of the little stuff we take for granted in the west was looked upon as rare commodoties over there. Persepolis (the graphic novel/movie) is another good one - that's about Iran under the Ayatollah, but there were many of the same restrictions on western art/culture there as in the USSR), not having to stand in line for good food instead of staples, the sheer variety of things we have from clothing brands to ice cream flavors to car makes and models to hell, even colors to paint your house. One of the things that shocked my one cousin the most when he moved here, having always worked in manufacturing, was that we had "new" equipment in the refinery here, whereas in Hungary the plant he'd worked in had stuff that was from the 50's and 60's, in the US, it was from the early 80's (in like, 1994 or so.) So there were some differences in quality of life, but it really depends on who in the US/Western countries you are comparing that quality of life to. In a capitalist society (especially as one drifting as close to unchecked capitalism as the US) there is a huge chasm between quality of life for the haves and have-nots, and especially in the US, there is a lot going against you as a have-not that makes it nearly impossible to claw your way up from the bottom, in Hungary at least, there was a bit more of a sense of a proper meritocracy - if you did well in school, you'd have your first choice of what you wanted to do, you'd have a better chance of snagging a sweet job where you could funnel in bootleg stuff from the west to make some extra money, etc. And the schools were all fairly equal - it didn't matter if you came from a peasant village of 100 or lived in Budapest, they were all teaching the same curriculum the same way, whereas here, if you're from the ghetto, and you do well, you're still hosed because even if you're the brightest mind this generation has seen, it don't mean poo poo when even the 12th grade teachers are still teaching EZ readers because of a lack of funding for books, forcing 50 kid classes, and disallowing for an honors track so the teachers are kinda forced to adapt classes to fit the large majority of students. I think that might be a good chunk of the longing for ye olden days - immigrants that came here on the promise of the american dream realizing that hard work and dedication really do not always pay off here, and that if you are poor you are essentially condemning your children to the same life because of the way the system works. Most of my relatives managed to make it pretty well and are solidly middle class these days, but there was a while after they first came over where it was a real struggle, and a few of them moved back just because of how quickly they realized that the "american dream" and the variety of capitalism wasn't worth having a lovely studio apartment in brooklyn for an entire family when they could go back to an absolutely breathtaking country and have a place where there was at least one bedroom for the parents and another for the kids. Dr Jankenstein fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Oct 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 04:11
|
|
|
Wow thanks a lot. I'm very curious to hear about Hungary and Yugoslavia since those were the "good" Communist countries. How big was the quality of life gap between Hungary and similar Capitalist countries AA if for Quitters? I know about the TV, anything else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 04:50
|
|
|
One thing that makes comparing quality of life under communism vs. capitalism (at least as we know it in the West) difficult is that it's very hard, if not impossible, to really know what to attribute to the intrinsic pros/cons of our form of society/economy and what to attribute to the fruits of exploitation. Like, many people just assume our economic system is superior due to the higher quality of life the US middle class had/has vs. most people in the USSR, but this sort of ignores the fact that our quality of life has been subsidized through the use of cheap labor and various immoral business practices overseas. You can't really talk about the quality of life afforded by capitalism (and communism, for that matter) without also looking at its impact in other, poorer nations. I would be interested in finding out the extent to which the USSR (or socialist nations like former Yugoslavia) also benefited from exploitation and whether the quality of life of your average Russian was also subsidized in a similar fashion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 05:38
|
|
|
I've been living in the Czech Republic for about four years. As a foreigner here I can only tell you about second-hand experiences, but they seem pretty universal and I've heard much the same things from many different people. The first thing to say is that people here tend to speak about communism with a degree of equanimity that makes it sound like something that happened in the far, distant past that never really directly affected them. Before arriving here, I didn't know anything about communist societies beyond what I'd read in Western media, and these accounts tend to focus more on the more extreme horrors of the system rather than on day-to-day life. As a result I had this impression of mass persecutions and severe political oppression that left the populations traumatised and miserable. While there was such active oppression in the form of Stalinist inquisitions in Czechoslovakia in the early 50s, for most of the communist era the oppression people experienced was far more subtle and mundane. You had to toe the line, of course, but as long as you weren't actively outspoken against the government then they left you more or less alone. I'm still yet to meet anyone here who was actively persecuted by the government, though perhaps this is just one of these things that people prefer not to talk about. In fact, when speaking today in negative tones about the communist regime, people very rarely mention political oppression (the denial of free-speech, the lack of democratic elections and so on) and speak almost exclusively about consumer shortages as the greatest horror of the communist era. After the Velvet Revolution, for example, it was amazing to people that they could now buy oranges in the shops all year round, instead of only being able to buy dry, pithy oranges from Cuba at Christmas time. One of my students told me about his experiences buying a car. It was only possible to order a car on certain days of the year, which were not advertised in advance. Once the quota was filled, the next chance to order might not arrive for years. So he had to go the relevant office every morning for three months, asking "Can I register yet?" before he was finally able to place an order. It then took another 6 months for the car to arrive. When people in Czechoslovakia looked in envy towards the West, it wasn't political freedoms they were looking to so much as the scope of consumer choices. For this reason, there was a big black market in, for example, LPs and Western fashions. (It was possible, ironically, for people who were most friendly with the regime to earn vouchers that would allow them to shop in certain stores that sold Western goods which were unavailable to everyone else.) I'm convinced that if the communist party here had been prescient enough to allow the import of Levi jeans, they could have held onto power much longer. Mass shortages and long lines at the grocery store don't seem to have been particularly common here, though. As for present support for the existing communist party, it's currently running at about 20% in the Czech Republic and seemingly growing, which is obviously causing many people here some alarm. To understand this, you have to appreciate the demographics of the country, particularly the rural / urban divide. Under the communist regime, jobs were spread (by design) quite equally across the nation. There were some industries that we obviously more centred on the more major cities (especially Prague and Brno) but otherwise there were few "push" or "pull" factors to compel one to live in an urban environment. People in Prague typically owned (and continue to own) cottages in smaller villages that they would visit (and continue to visit) every weekend. For that reason, you had most of the population living happily in villages of less than 50,000 people. When communism fell, though, it obviously ceased to be economically viable to have major industries operating outside of major urban centres. My girlfriend's family, for example, comes from a small town of perhaps 500 people which had its own sock factory. In the past it would employ 50-60 people, comfortably the primary employer for the people living there. Today it employs only 4, and none of these lost jobs have been replaced by other industries in the region. This experience is typical for most small Czech villages. Additionally, the labour market for unskilled work (agriculture, mining etc.) has shrunk tremendously since the Czech market was opened up to outside competition. As a result, rural areas, and previously industrial towns have fallen into basically irreversible decline. Ostrava, for instance, used to be a major and thriving industrial town, whereas today unemployment there tops 20%. When faced with such staggering decline, it is quite natural for people to pine for the "good old days". It's not something that I ever would have considered before, but the fact is that people in many parts of the country were unquestionably better off under the communist system. At least then they were guaranteed work and could live with a degree of financial stability. Today, however, that opportunity has been foreclosed to a pretty big percentage of the Czech population. It's well and good to chastise them for forgetting the horrors of the old system, but I think many people would happily trade the right to vote (in a political system still riddled with corruption, and which remains the focus of much opprobrium and skepticism amongst Czech people) for the security of having food on the table every evening. Some of this is unquestionably borne of idle and self-serving nostalgia on their part - people in this case are often wont to remember the positives of the communist system without the many, many negatives - but as a solely self-interested proposition it's quite rational for rural or marginal areas of the country to be voting for the communist party today. This terrifies people from Prague, of course (where the notionally right-wing parties will get 70%+ of the vote), but I wouldn't say the communists are capable of reaching any great degree of power here. The Social-Democrats (also a left wing party) were able to form a coalition government without the communists, so in a sense they've been frozen out of political process. But it's still valuable to look at the 20% result that the communists got as a wake up call that the government needs to do more to assist more rural parts of the country, and to not only focus on Prague (which is something that generates a lot of resentment across the rest of the country).
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
Most of my immediate family came from what is now Slovenia between 1950 and 1980 so I got to hear plenty of stories about how it was back then. My grandparents and most of the families of people I knew growing up had all of their property confiscated by the state after world war 2 and had to flee because they would have ended up in a mass grave, so they hate the very idea of communism with every shred of their being. Those who were there during the communist years had varying experiences depending on where they were from. People in the more central urban areas weren't generally starving or anything like that, but you basically had to work the system to get what you needed. Others like my uncle, who grew up in a wine producing area near the Italian border, were extremely poor. Apparently it was bad enough there that one night he decided to sneak across the border into Italy in the middle of the night and ask for asylum without telling anyone, even his parents, where he was going. From what I've been told there was a general 'nervousness' everywhere you went. My mother's cousin worked as a broker for leather goods and frequently traveled to Russia on business. He was never allowed to tell anyone besides his wife where he was going and if he called home they wouldn't put the call through until the middle of the night for some reason. When people would go back to visit in the 60s and 70s the locals were very friendly and talkative until the found out that the person they were talking to was from the US. Then they would get very quiet and slink away since they didn't want to draw attention to themselves. One time my mother and aunt went into a bakery where another cousin worked and, being boisterous types, started asking very loudly for their cousin by name and made it clear that his cousins from America were looking for him. When they finally caught up with him he was actually mad and yelling "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING? DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN!" Religion wasn't really repressed, but if you wanted any kind of government position you generally had to tow the party line and hide it. People would put things like nativity scenes in cabinets or drawers so that they could display them for family but keep them hidden around people they didn't completely trust. Smuggling and the black market was just something that existed. If you wanted jeans, a new TV, a computer or any other type of high-tech or luxury good you went to Italy or Austria and sat on it for the ride back (assuming your lovely car made it back). Everyone knew what was going on but everyone was doing it so it's was just overlooked. When people went back there for a visit they would collect things like old clothes and other necessities to give to their relatives since they were generally in short supply. After the breakup of Yugoslavia Slovenia did quite well, mainly because it was far removed from Belgrade and generally ethnically homogenous. I'd say that their quality of life improved, seeing how my relatives live now vs the "back in the day" stories. It's not perfect, especially since the crisis, but they've fared better than a lot of other places. It seems to me that most of the "ostalgia" there is along the lines of people missing the general sense of comradery they got from everyone being equally poor, a dismay at the selling-off of national industries and a few bad workers who miss the days when you could be a drunken gently caress-up but still be guaranteed a job and a crappy apartment. Nobody really wants to go back to the days of political prisons, having to smuggle everything under a car seat or being kicked around by the politicians in Belgrade.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 17:28
|
|
|
it's p aight. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 17:39
|
|
|
One thing you might consider about the relatively "good" quality of life you may remember from the 80ies is that it took 40, or 60 years to get to even that level. My grandma worked forestry/horticulture full time at a collective farm, and from the end of WW2 to about '56, she didn't get ANY PAY AT ALL, only some foodstuffs and a little strip of land to grow vegetables and hay for the handful of farm animals they were allowed to have. Pretty much serfdom, in second half of the 20th century.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 21:00
|
|
|
pigdog posted:One thing you might consider about the relatively "good" quality of life you may remember from the 80ies is that it took 40, or 60 years to get to even that level. My grandma worked forestry/horticulture full time at a collective farm, and from the end of WW2 to about '56, she didn't get ANY PAY AT ALL, only some foodstuffs and a little strip of land to grow vegetables and hay for the handful of farm animals they were allowed to have. Pretty much serfdom, in second half of the 20th century. Was this Russia? You never said what country your family was from. I can totally believe that of Russia/Poland/Ukraine, since the stories I've heard from friends (I grew up in an area with a massive polish/ukranian immigrant community, and while most of my friends were either born here or were infants when their families came over after the revolutions, their parents had a lot to say on the matter when asked) were horrifying at times, with a definite sense of a prison state, bootlegging/contraband being the only way to get anything decent (much less good), and a constant fear of having the secret police turn up if you stepped barely a toe out of line. But this is also very true of all the soviet states, and I'm a bit biased just in that the only things I've heard are all second hand from people who were born post WWII. Hungary had a really rough time after WWII, under Rakosi (who was a puppet of Moscow), where there was the internment of something like almost a million political prisoners, executions, and turning it very much into a Stalinist state, but I never heard much of the stories of that time, since most of the relatives who were alive for that either never emigrated over the US after 89, or just straight-up refused to talk about it (In English, at least), but in '56 there was a revolution that nearly saw Hungary ousting itself entirely from the USSR, partly because when Nagy took over in '53 he started scaling stuff like the secret police back, freeing a bunch of political prisoners, etc, and they did intend to withdraw, and tried to get the UN involved, before the Red Army steamrollered over them. There was another big roundup of political prisoners after that, but it only lasted for 2-3 years before the Hungarian government loosened up a bit because they didn't want another repeat of the '56 revolution. There was still some secret police involvement, but the sense i got from my relatives was from the mid 60's or so on, so long as you weren't standing on street corners preaching "Better dead than red!" the worst part of communism was simply the lack of consumer goods. Then again, no one in Hungary was particularly fond of being part of the USSR, hence the relative autonomy of the state - it was simply easier to allow a fair bit of self-governance and freedom than it was to imprison large swathes of the population (and thus, the workforce), or to tie up valuable resources constantly quelling uprisings when Moscow could step back and let them continue to be a communist state, just not intervening as much and letting Hungary largely handle its own affairs. My relative's largest complaint outside of the lack of options for things was the family estates had all been "taken" by the state. Of course, since this was the middle of nowhere, and the family had money, they were able to largely bribe their way into keeping much of their holdings. It also helps that Hungary was the second soviet state after Russia, it just wasn't fond of being part of the USSR, or Russian occupation. The "socialist" party is still the second-largest in the government (Although they'd actually be closest to today's democratic party in the US - rather neoliberal in terms of economics from research), and there is still a decent amount of proper communists in the country. The pushback against the red army was never against communism itself as much as it was against Russian occupation of the country, and of Moscow pulling the strings behind the politics. My family still has some rather unkind things to say about the USSR as a whole, but are much more congenial when talking about communism in general, but then again most (actually all but my "great aunt" whose actually a cousin of some sort) weren't alive for the atrocities post-WWII, and none were alive for the terrors of the Hungarian Soviet Republic, which was the Post WWI soviet state that was...not at all good at governing to very, very much whitewash things. So Hungary managed to eke out the "good" quality of life well before a lot of the other soviet states, but it did have some serious issues a the start as well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
How did the confiscating of goods go about? Did it happen in most if not all Communist countries? How did it work? Like if it happened in todays world the military would march into my house and just start taking my TV, computer, and furniture? Interesting post. How did Hungary's quality of life compare to the rest of Europe? The_Franz posted:Stuff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 17:51
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Interesting as well. I was under the impression that Yugoslavia was different than the other states as it was more free, had better economic growth, and people were happier. That was the impression I got from talking to most Ex-Yugoslavians. The impression I have gotten from talking to Ex-Yugoslavians is that this varies vastly depending on what part of the country they are from. As The_Franz indicated, Slovenia seceded after a very short war and was able to essentially become a nice and successful new independent country very quickly after Yugoslavia fell apart, not without it's problems of course but with a higher standard of living for many than during the Communist days. In other areas things became worse. Most of the ex-Yugoslavians I've met who thought life was better under Tito were Bosnians and the reason is pretty obvious given how much that country was torn up in the war. I have not been to Serbia but I would not be surprised if there are Serbs who miss the days when Beograd was the capital of a whole federation, one friendlier to the West than any eastern bloc nation, rather than the capital of a small and rather politically isolated country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 18:14
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:The impression I have gotten from talking to Ex-Yugoslavians is that this varies vastly depending on what part of the country they are from. As The_Franz indicated, Slovenia seceded after a very short war and was able to essentially become a nice and successful new independent country very quickly after Yugoslavia fell apart, not without it's problems of course but with a higher standard of living for many than during the Communist days. In other areas things became worse. Most of the ex-Yugoslavians I've met who thought life was better under Tito were Bosnians and the reason is pretty obvious given how much that country was torn up in the war. I have not been to Serbia but I would not be surprised if there are Serbs who miss the days when Beograd was the capital of a whole federation, one friendlier to the West than any eastern bloc nation, rather than the capital of a small and rather politically isolated country. Some of the people I talked to were Croatian. And from what I understand the country has done great after the breakup.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
No one ever got killed in Berlin trying to jump the fence into East Germany. Probably.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 20:58
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Some of the people I talked to were Croatian. And from what I understand the country has done great after the breakup. They have but it took them longer to get there compared Slovenia as they were involved in a very messy war for much longer. But yes, Croatia has a lot of very popular tourist areas on its beautiful coast which I think has helped a lot. I was there in 2002 and all of the major war damage in coastal areas was gone (it was still readily visible everywhere in Bosnia and in parts of inland Croatia), they did a very impressive job of turning areas that were a war zone back into a major vacation destination within just a few years. Most of the Croats I ended up hanging out with were younger than me and didn't remember much of the Tito days, as they were kids. But I would not be surprised to hear some older Croats missed Yugoslavia, in spite of Croatia's success, because maybe they miss the different cultures of the federation, or resent some of the changes that have happened in the free market economy - there was a lot of concern about growth of the mafia in some places which I think is similar to what happened in Russia after the fall of the USSR.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 21:17
|
|
|
Two more questions from me: - I've heard that the products sold under Communism were atrocious, like quality wise. They were literally cheap Chinese knockoffs that were poorly build and always break. - What do people think of center-left politics? Like Scandinavia? Do they shy away from it because left wing = communism = bad? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Oct 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Two more questions from me: Later they introduced the Mark of Quality which, if granted, gave a pretty good indication of quality on things that were so marked. quote:- What do people think of green politics? Like Scandinavia? Do they shy away from it because left wing = communism = bad?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 00:15
|
|
|
pigdog posted:Later they introduced the Mark of Quality which, if granted, gave a pretty good indication of quality on things that were so marked. pigdog posted:For the record, environmentalism was well at the bottom of the priority list of the Soviet state. (And nearly up to this day in China, it seems) I should have said "social democracy" or "center left" politics. I always saw left politics as red (focusing on state control and anti-capitalism) and green (focusing on social programs and welfare).
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 01:23
|
|
|
pigdog posted:True to some extent. While the stereotypical Chinese manufacturer do utmost to drive cost down with disregard to quality, the Soviet products were mostly just rough and shoddily made. Like if you bought a bicycle, you had to spend an afternoon bolting it together properly, balance the wheels and whatnot. They weren't cheap for cheapness sake though, sometimes even the opposite as in unnecessarily heavy and robust, just usually not very well made. I have a question somewhat along these lines, more specifically difference between domestic manufactured goods and manufactured goods for export. I wonder because a few years ago, I adopted an ugly tank of a mini fridge from the bowels of a college house while helping a buddy move, and the sticker on the back said "Made in Yugoslavia". It was made sometime between 1985 (when the logo version on it was registered) and the dissolution of Yugoslavia (obviously). The maker is a now-defunct/bought-out American company. From what Wikipedia tells me, post-Tito Yugoslavia had a decent relationship with the US and that during the 80's, the economy was getting lovely and they tried some open market/economic initiatives and stuff. I guess this included Western companies opening factories in Yugoslavia? At this point, was communism loosening in Yugoslavia? Would a worker in the kitchen appliance factory spend his day building good quality stuff for export and go home to a house full of lovely Soviet crap? Or by the late 80's, would a person in Yugoslavia have access to the same level of manufactured goods that were made for export? Would they be able to afford them?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 02:01 |
|
|
There are some examples of things that were better organized. Childcare was free and very good in the warsaw pact countries. Even today west Germany is still trying to catch up with east Germany in term of availability and quality. But yeah, there are not a lot of these examples. Truth is, if you managed to land in the new middle class after the collapse you are probably much better off than during Soviet times.Authentic You posted:I have a question somewhat along these lines, more specifically difference between domestic manufactured goods and manufactured goods for export. I wonder because a few years ago, I adopted an ugly tank of a mini fridge from the bowels of a college house while helping a buddy move, and the sticker on the back said "Made in Yugoslavia". It was made sometime between 1985 (when the logo version on it was registered) and the dissolution of Yugoslavia (obviously). The maker is a now-defunct/bought-out American company. From what Wikipedia tells me, post-Tito Yugoslavia had a decent relationship with the US and that during the 80's, the economy was getting lovely and they tried some open market/economic initiatives and stuff. I guess this included Western companies opening factories in Yugoslavia? At this point, was communism loosening in Yugoslavia? Would a worker in the kitchen appliance factory spend his day building good quality stuff for export and go home to a house full of lovely Soviet crap? Or by the late 80's, would a person in Yugoslavia have access to the same level of manufactured goods that were made for export? Would they be able to afford them? I don't know about Yugoslavia, but Soviet goods that were made for export were generally of much higher quality than the domestic ones. There were of course some domestic quality products, even high quality western goods were available, but in such small amounts that they often didn't even reach the market after everyone along the supply chain took their cut. About that worker, I guess it's not much different than someone assembling high-end cars in a BMW plant today. People making products that they will never be able to own is a very old thing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 03:02
|
|
