Have humans always had consciousness?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > Have humans always had consciousness?

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Cardiovorax posted:

We ignore the question, it's not meaningful. We feel as if we have free will, so the actual reality of the situation doesn't matter in any practical sense.

So in your opinion, what is the force that's guiding humans down to their very thoughts?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:26

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 01:22

Dolphin: Dec 5, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

420DD Butts posted:

Literally interacting in that way is communication hth.

not in the meaningful "expressing thoughts and emotions with metaphorical language" type of communication that any reasonable human would know is implied

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:26

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Yaldabaoth posted:

So in your opinion, what is the force that's guiding humans down to their very thoughts?

How should I know? I'm a chemist, not a neurologist. I just know enough biochemistry to be pretty convinced that our brain is not magic.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:29

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

How should I know? I'm a chemist, not a neurologist. I just know enough biochemistry to be pretty convinced that our brain is not magic.

Why is the ability to make decisions magical? That is, when we perceive ourselves as having choices to make and then making them, that is apparently magical and thus an illusion, in your belief, rather than an interesting emergent process within the brain. Why?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:31

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

Dolphin posted:

not in the meaningful "expressing thoughts and emotions with metaphorical language" type of communication that any reasonable human would know is implied

Possibly not, but they're still expressing thoughts and emotions which implies communication. How often do humans actually actively think about the deeper meanings behind the words or phrases they use anyway?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:33

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Effectronica posted:

Why is the ability to make decisions magical? That is, when we perceive ourselves as having choices to make and then making them, that is apparently magical and thus an illusion, in your belief, rather than an interesting emergent process within the brain. Why?

Ignore him, he's basically making a "Humans cannot be more than the sum of their parts" argument which is like the absolute dumbest argument an atheist can make

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:35

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Effectronica posted:

Why is the ability to make decisions magical? That is, when we perceive ourselves as having choices to make and then making them, that is apparently magical and thus an illusion, in your belief, rather than an interesting emergent process within the brain. Why?

Because real free will is incompatible with conventional causality. Making choices is a physical event within the brain. Those events need to be caused by something physical as well. The mind isn't some ephemeral object that exists separate from the brain, it is the brain. So where does that physical event come from? Impossible things happening without visible cause is what we call magic. Or miracles, optionally.

Yaldabaoth posted:

Ignore him, he's basically making a "Humans cannot be more than the sum of their parts" argument which is like the absolute dumbest argument an atheist can make

You really aren't terribly clever, are you?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:40

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Cardiovorax posted:

You really aren't terribly clever, are you?

I rather am compared to the guy who lives in a modern 21st century society and claims humans can't act above their "programming"

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:51

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

Because real free will is incompatible with conventional causality. Making choices is a physical event within the brain. Those events need to be caused by something physical as well. The mind isn't some ephemeral object that exists separate from the brain, it is the brain. So where does that physical event come from? Impossible things happening without visible cause is what we call magic. Or miracles, optionally.

You really aren't terribly clever, are you?

First, we have an assertion. Then we have a series of statements that look like they were meant to support it, but actually don't. None of them even address what I said directly, proving that you didn't read what I wrote. Then we have a little bit of dramatic irony, assuming you're trying to communicate and not just play-acting.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:52

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Yaldabaoth posted:

I rather am compared to the guy who lives in a modern 21st century society and claims humans can't act above their "programming"

Figures that that is what you'd take away from what I said.

Effectronica posted:

First, we have an assertion. Then we have a series of statements that look like they were meant to support it, but actually don't. None of them even address what I said directly, proving that you didn't read what I wrote. Then we have a little bit of dramatic irony, assuming you're trying to communicate and not just play-acting.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going to derive physicalism from first principles for you here. You wanted to know why I called it magic, I told you why. That's all you're getting.

Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 26, 2014

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:53

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

Free will? Free from what?

Consciousness? Conscious of what?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 16:54

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Cardiovorax posted:

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going to derive physicalism from first principles for you here. You wanted to know why I called it magic, I told you why. That's all you're getting.

Looks at this schlub trying to argue physicalism in a universe where Electromagnetism is a major driving force

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:00

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

Figures that that is what you'd take away from what I said.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going to derive physicalism from first principles for you here. You wanted to know why I called it magic, I told you why. That's all you're getting.

"That's all you're getting"? Hmm, looks like being molested by a middle-aged man has permanently damaged your psyche. Perhaps pedophilia really is as common as scaremongers claim, given how this psychological trauma exactly resembles smug teenagers with AP Physics and Chemistry 101 under their belts.

Regardless, I didn't say anything dualistic except in your tiny little brain. I said "emergent process within the brain", that is, saying that, given we perceive ourselves as making decisions, is it really more meaningful to say it's an illusion or something we don't understand about the brain yet? You just repeated the dogma, right down to the quick avoidance of having to disrupt the status quo by insisting everyone live what you believe to be a lie. I'm really sure you're a chemist now.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:00

Dolphin: Dec 5, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

420DD Butts posted:

Possibly not, but they're still expressing thoughts and emotions which implies communication. How often do humans actually actively think about the deeper meanings behind the words or phrases they use anyway?

no, they're not doing that at all. koko is making pseudo-signs for a reward and penny is interpreting them like a preacher interprets glossolalia

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:00

SirEvelynTremble: Dec 25, 2013; FUCK YOU HITLER
STALINGRAD
ROFLMFAO

Cardiovorax posted:

Figures that that is what you'd take away from what I said.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going to derive physicalism from first principles for you here. You wanted to know why I called it magic, I told you why. That's all you're getting.

you called it magic bc you icelandics still believe in gnomes etc

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:01

monkey: Jan 20, 2004; by zen death robot; Yams Fan

Cardiovorax posted:

The mind isn't some ephemeral object that exists separate from the brain, it is the brain.

These words you are reading right now are your monitor, right?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:04

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Yaldabaoth posted:

Looks at this schlub trying to argue physicalism in a universe where Electromagnetism is a major driving force

Did that stop being a field of physics when I wasn't looking or something? I'm not even getting your point there.

Effectronica posted:

I said "emergent process within the brain", that is, saying that, given we perceive ourselves as making decisions, is it really more meaningful to say it's an illusion or something we don't understand about the brain yet?

I never said that it's not an emergent property or that it is even remotely understood. I just said that I don't see a reason to believe that human consciousness is somehow excempt from the laws of nature or causality. For someone who complains about people putting words in his mouth you certainly like doing it a lot.

SirEvelynTremble posted:

you called it magic bc you icelandics still believe in gnomes etc

I wish I was Icelandic. We don't have a cool penis museum.

monkey posted:

These words you are reading right now are your monitor, right?

They are, in fact. The information they're communicating to me isn't, but that's another thing entirely.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:05

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

Did that stop being a field of physics when I wasn't looking or something? I'm not even getting your point there.

I never said that it's not an emergent property or that it is even remotely understood. I just said that I don't see a reason to believe that human consciousness is somehow excempt from the laws of nature or causality. For someone who complains about people putting words in his mouth you certainly like doing it a lot.

I wish I was Icelandic. We don't have a cool penis museum.

I specifically said "free will", and now you're trying to change the terms on me. Well golly loving gee. You're trying to do the Proteus thing, but you're more like the chick from Harry Potter who could change her face slightly, if she was clinically retarded.

What, specifically, about free will as a concept violates causality or the laws of nature? If you assume that free will requires dualism again I'm sending a flying squad of gremlins against you.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:09

Dolphin: Dec 5, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

i think you two need to just have sex with each other, the sexual tension in here is just pathetic

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:10

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Cardiovorax posted:

Did that stop being a field of physics when I wasn't looking or something? I'm not even getting your point there.

The human brain is not limited by its biology, that's my point. If that was the case then humans would still be living as primitive hunter-gatherers

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:11

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

Cardiovorax does his obstinate schtick in every thread, it's his way of seeing who wants to touch dicks.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:12

skeletonotherkin: Sep 26, 2014

Yaldabaoth posted:

I'm not saying humanity would be better off if we used genetic engineering or something to turn everyone into creatures like the Tyranids from Warhammer 40k, but it would probably be easier on the human psych than what we have now

Bah clearly we should become like the orks.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:12

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Cardiovorax posted:

Because real free will is incompatible with conventional causality. Making choices is a physical event within the brain. Those events need to be caused by something physical as well. The mind isn't some ephemeral object that exists separate from the brain, it is the brain. So where does that physical event come from? Impossible things happening without visible cause is what we call magic. Or miracles, optionally.

You really aren't terribly clever, are you?

This is a really bad post. Lol.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:15

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Effectronica posted:

What, specifically, about free will as a concept violates causality or the laws of nature? If you assume that free will requires dualism again I'm sending a flying squad of gremlins against you.

Either decisions are caused by outside events, in which case they aren't freely made, or they aren't caused by anything, in which case they are random and still not freely made. You lose either way. Free will is an uncaused cause, which is paradoxical and therefore categorically impossible.

Yaldabaoth posted:

The human brain is not limited by its biology, that's my point. If that was the case then humans would still be living as primitive hunter-gatherers

You have some seriously mistaken preconceptions about the capabilities of biology.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:16

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Cardiovorax posted:

Either decisions are caused by outside events, in which case they aren't freely made, or they aren't caused by anything, in which case they are random and still not freely made.

Decisions are caused by people responding to external stimuli, WTF is so hard to understand about this?

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:18

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Cardiovorax posted:

Either decisions are caused by outside events, in which case they aren't freely made, or they aren't caused by anything, in which case they are random and still not freely made. You lose either way. Free will is an uncaused cause, which is paradoxical and therefore categorically impossible.

You have some seriously mistaken preconceptions about the capabilities of biology.

Finally, we're into new territory, and boy is it stupendously strange. The "cause" of decisions, picking one choice over the other, is the accumulated information you have on each choice, your predictions of the outcomes of each choice, the heuristics and algorithms you use to simplify the process and if you don't have any reason to prefer one over the other, randomness. This should be blindingly obvious, but as is apparent, you've made a religion out of your powerlessness, and are one of the more contemptible human beings I've ever had the misfortune to encounter.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:19

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

i only respond to external stimuli. *sits in an empty room for hours on end staring at the wall*

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:22

the worst thing is: Oct 3, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

I for one am slave to my hallucinations

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:23

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

I can't decide which makes me look cooler: talking about something I clearly know nothing about, and attempting to save as much face as possible when called on my bullshit, or talking something I clearly know nothing about and being entirely convinced that I'm right and arguing with people nonstop.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:23

monkey: Jan 20, 2004; by zen death robot; Yams Fan

Cardiovorax posted:

They are, in fact. The information they're communicating to me isn't, but that's another thing entirely.

If the words are your monitor, it follows that your monitor is the words. My monitor isn't words, unless those words are specifically "Dell U2711" and even those words are not my monitor, they are its model number.

I would argue that the words are the information I am communicating to you, because the information is words. Your monitor is just the substrate. Time works the same way.

FWIW I agree with you about determinism, more or less.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:24

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Tsinava posted:

i only respond to external stimuli. *sits in an empty room for hours on end staring at the wall*

Maybe I should have said stimuli in general

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:25

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

monkey posted:

FWIW I agree with you about determinism, more or less.

This attitude doesn't help anyone, in fact it leads to poo poo like Calvinism

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:27

Tsinava: Nov 15, 2009; by Ralp

Yaldabaoth posted:

Maybe I should have said stimuli in general

i was actually making fun of what the other person was saying about choices and decision making processes i didn't even read your post lol.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:27

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

most aren't conscious now, OP

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:28

tetsuo: May 12, 2001; I am a shaman, magician

lmao there are people who think free will exists

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:30

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

tetsuo posted:

lmao there are people who think free will exists

The gnomes have learned a new way to say hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (ray)

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:31

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Yaldabaoth posted:

Decisions are caused by people responding to external stimuli, WTF is so hard to understand about this?

But that is exactly what I've been saying. Why are you arguing with me, then? :confused:

Effectronica posted:

Finally, we're into new territory, and boy is it stupendously strange. The "cause" of decisions, picking one choice over the other, is the accumulated information you have on each choice, your predictions of the outcomes of each choice, the heuristics and algorithms you use to simplify the process and if you don't have any reason to prefer one over the other, randomness. This should be blindingly obvious, but as is apparent, you've made a religion out of your powerlessness, and are one of the more contemptible human beings I've ever had the misfortune to encounter.

God but you are an annoying dick. I already said that I don't even care about the answer, because it feels like we do have free will anyway. If you think that being aware of your own limitations is a "religion of powerlessness" then whatever, but at least pay attention.

monkey posted:

If the words are your monitor, it follows that your monitor is the words. My monitor isn't words, unless those words are specifically "Dell U2711" and even those words are not my monitor, they are its model number.

I would argue that the words are the information I am communicating to you, because the information is words. Your monitor is just the substrate.

If that's how you define words then that works, I guess. I figured we were talking about the actual representation that I'm looking at, not the meaning that my mind makes of it.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:31

monkey: Jan 20, 2004; by zen death robot; Yams Fan

All animals have consciousness otherwise you would not be able to knock them unconscious.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:33

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

Effectronica posted:

Finally, we're into new territory, and boy is it stupendously strange. The "cause" of decisions, picking one choice over the other, is the accumulated information you have on each choice, your predictions of the outcomes of each choice, the heuristics and algorithms you use to simplify the process and if you don't have any reason to prefer one over the other, randomness. This should be blindingly obvious, but as is apparent, you've made a religion out of your powerlessness, and are one of the more contemptible human beings I've ever had the misfortune to encounter.

I'm sure it's just a case of miscommunication (lol), but first you were for the idea that we have free will and now you're against it? idgi

also loling at the free will people. They're probably just in denial because their world view is crumbling right behind their eyes. Clutching at straws.

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:33

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 01:22

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

tetsuo posted:

lmao there are people who think free will exists

Alright then I'll just tie you down and shove a hot poker up your rear end and you won't be able to object because you don't have free will

# ? Oct 26, 2014 17:33

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