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I just assumed people would lump that in with bonuses, though the wording may be a bit confusing there.
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Oct 31, 2014 05:20
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quote:Include cash, options, or anything not guaranteed in your employment contract.
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Oct 31, 2014 05:52
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Re subbed with my actual town and title.
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Oct 31, 2014 12:02
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Sorry hang on, interns and fresh grads are getting $70k? What the gently caress? Is the cost of living in America insanely high compared to Europe or something? Holy poo poo this thread is bad for my imposter's syndrome.
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Oct 31, 2014 23:34
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NtotheTC posted:Sorry hang on, interns and fresh grads are getting $70k? What the gently caress? Is the cost of living in America insanely high compared to Europe or something? Overall though America has lower cost of living than Europe, not higher. Programmer salaries are just unusually high in the states compared to the rest of the world (except Switzerland...but their cost of living is crazy), possibly because our software/tech industry is much stronger.
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Nov 1, 2014 00:06
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NtotheTC posted:Sorry hang on, interns and fresh grads are getting $70k? What the gently caress? Is the cost of living in America insanely high compared to Europe or something?
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Nov 1, 2014 14:24
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NtotheTC posted:Sorry hang on, interns and fresh grads are getting $70k? What the gently caress? Is the cost of living in America insanely high compared to Europe or something? Facebook and Google have been starting new grads at $100k+ in the bay area, which does have a somewhat high cost of living, but not as bad as (non-bay) people love to scream about. Facebook also frequently offers a signing bonus of your first year's salary, which you get if you stick around for a full year. blorpy fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 22:04
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I get that these are smart kids- what sort of things are they involved with in their first year?
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Nov 1, 2014 22:14
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NtotheTC posted:I get that these are smart kids- what sort of things are they involved with in their first year? Facebook has a lot of PHP and has to offset that. You tell a new grad they'll be writing PHP for a living and they'll run away screaming - unless you drive a dumptruck full of cash to their home. A lot of that pay is to help out with the opportunity cost of not working somewhere interesting. Also, Facebook is terribly afraid of becoming irrelevant, and it sees tech as one of its competitive advantages, so it's trying to just buy its way into the future. To answer your question, some of them will be writing soul-crushing facebook front ends while others make utterly boring php ad sales backends. There's nothing smart about it, and most of them won't be very competent right out of school, Stanford BS or not.
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Nov 1, 2014 22:19
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Keep in mind that this cycle is very dependent on VC money, even if Facebook is public. The evosystem around FB is heavily startup driven, and startups also push salaries and benefits. Facebook has to come over the top on those. Once the interest rates in the US become nonzero, VC money will stop targeting the bay, the startups will slow down considerably, and this current salary trend will soften a little. SV is just a better bet than many other investment opportunites at the moment (or it is good at creating that illusion, depending on your perspective)
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Nov 1, 2014 22:26
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Here in the Jacksonville FL boondocks the fifties seem to be what people get who know what they're worth, starting off. I got 40K since I named a number in desperation given my situation, hung up on "OMG TWENNY AN HOUR!" like most people who have never made a decent living on that benchmark. Most people seem to wise up and do better, or are offered something that isn't laughable if they go to the bigger players here, like Black Knight, LPS, and various banks. I'm now two years into my career and just shy of 60K at my second job, which is honestly not bad. Midlevel jobs seem to start in the 70s unless you're a lovely negotiator. I've seen 85K+ salaries for team leads and senior devs offered. There are no state taxes here, city property taxes are a joke if you own, and the cost of living is more to do with the time spent driving around getting fat in your car than anything else. I'm paying a bit much at $775 for a one bedroom historic in the only trendy part of town; luxo is $1200-1800 unless you're in something palatial right on the river. There are mansions and huge houses, of course, but short of that you're not going to be paying much on rent or mortgage. Money goes far here. On the other hand, it's Jacksonville, so your options are very limited compared to every other major city in the USA. Florida salaries are often low in general since newbies who are from here have the "pay your dues" mentality drilled into them and the race to the bottom defines the attitudes and ideology of most people who are here willingly, and if you're not tied down, you'd be a fool to not split the second you got your ducks in a row.
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Nov 1, 2014 22:51
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One bedrooms in this area can be found for 2000 - 2500 / mo. Let's say $1800/mo on average more, which comes out to ~$21500/yr difference. If we estimate a marginal tax rate of 33%, then a difference of $33,000 in gross pay covers the bulk of cost of living adjustment between the bay area and a place with $750/mo rent, unless I completely hosed up the math?
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Nov 2, 2014 02:29
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Markov Chain Chomp posted:One bedrooms in this area can be found for 2000 - 2500 / mo. Let's say $1800/mo on average more, which comes out to ~$21500/yr difference. If we estimate a marginal tax rate of 33%, then a difference of $33,000 in gross pay covers the bulk of cost of living adjustment between the bay area and a place with $750/mo rent, unless I completely hosed up the math? Utilities? Food? Also, "similar lifestyle" things? Restaurants and bars cost how much more? EDIT: forgot that you already assumed a marginal tax rate. That might be a tad low given you're in the top bracket federally in SF and I dunno what California's progressive rates are. I used a little online calculator and found that making 120K in SF would mean I have 6.2ish a month after taxes. Drop 2K in rent and then the rest on utilities, fun and retirement doesn't seem too awful, but then again I have no kids and know how to cook for myself, and ostensibly won't be blowing it all in bars once I get that out of my system. Fuck them fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 02:47
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gently caress them posted:Utilities? Food? Also, "similar lifestyle" things? Restaurants and bars cost how much more? Utilities are dirt cheap - you'll be using almost no power since you'll never have heating or a/c on, and the rest is negligible. Food's tricky. Many companies here provide employees free lunch and dinner (and cold breakfast) so it's really just weekend expenses. I'd argue you actually pay less, but that might be unfair - it's probably a wash? Bars are pricey, but it's expensive to go drinking every night anywhere.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:21
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Markov Chain Chomp posted:Facebook and Google have been starting new grads at $100k+ in the bay area, which does have a somewhat high cost of living, but not as bad as (non-bay) people love to scream about. Facebook also frequently offers a signing bonus of your first year's salary, which you get if you stick around for a full year. Senior dev in the Bay Area should be 150k or more. And SF officially has higher rents than NYC so it is in fact one of the most expensive places to live in the world.
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Nov 2, 2014 06:06
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Am I the only person who thinks VC culture and the startup-teardown cycle is completely insane? This cannot possibly be sustainable in the long-term.
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Nov 4, 2014 19:22
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Pollyanna posted:Am I the only person who thinks VC culture and the startup-teardown cycle is completely insane? This cannot possibly be sustainable in the long-term. Some of it is, but in our case we're building a useful product that people pay money for; you just don't hear about us on the tech news sites because we aren't being acquired by Facebook for a billion dollars or creating something to appeal to nerds. The number of areas where people are saddled with really awful software or even no software at all is still massive. The productivity gains to be had are astounding and not even close to exhausted. Even when the current VC cycle crashes, it will just be another temporary downturn before a new cycle rises. I think the whole "social, race to a billion users by burning cash" thing is about played out though. The world doesn't need or want another Facebook, Twitter, etc. But people working in construction are overjoyed that someone is releasing good software for them.
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Nov 5, 2014 00:58
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Pretty much everyone agrees that SV is in a bubble at the moment due to the huge glut of people with money desperate for something to invest it in. The question is just whether things will explode horribly once the easy money dries up or if there's enough actual value being created for things to just gracefully taper off.
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Nov 5, 2014 04:31
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Pollyanna posted:Am I the only person who thinks VC culture and the startup-teardown cycle is completely insane? This cannot possibly be sustainable in the long-term. The total amount of investment is a tiny percentage of the GDP. It's sustainable as long as it has a positive ROI.
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Nov 5, 2014 06:06
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I know that software will always exist and always be necessary - but I just don't think that trying to start a new social network or any random bullshit startup reason is the best or most lucrative method.
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Nov 5, 2014 15:58
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Huh, apparently I'm around average for people with my years of experience. That makes me feel better, all you ever hear talk about elsewhere in CoC is people saying you should be making like 200k+ out of college and if you don't gently caress you, you're garbage.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:34
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I'm getting about $58k gross $43k net for about 6 hours a day of no productivity and 1 hour of messing around with SSRS reports. I'm projected for promotion and raise to $67k in a year and a half. I need to get my rear in gear and get my skills better. I'm probably going to give myself another two years here to get back on track. How can I get my motivation red bulled up and get from a 50-70k bottom tier programmer to a 80-100k+ productive programmer at somewhere like Microsoft or BAE? My GitHub is embarrassingly sparse. How do I find projects that need work within my skill set? I've also got to bug my coworkers to find some more programming work for me and understand ASP.NET and JavaScript better. Do I want to escape this comfortably secure mid wage job risking a shot for high wages when I don't have the rock star coding skills and no technical degree?
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Nov 12, 2014 22:43
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Crazy Mike posted:Do I want to escape this comfortably secure mid wage job risking a shot for high wages when I don't have the rock star coding skills and no technical degree? Launch a startup. Sounds like you've got plenty of free time. Put it on your GitHub profile if you get tired of working on it and use it to get your next job.
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Nov 13, 2014 20:47
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What do you guys think someone like this should be making? - 5.5 years of experience, suburban Maryland right in-between DC and Baltimore. - Job tech consists of C#, ASP.NET MVC, RavenDB (NoSQL), lots of knockout.js and jQuery. - Acts as technical authority on ~2/3 of a 1.8MLOC project. - Completely manages branching structure, merging, and coordinating where people are checking in. - Manages what goes into each release, preparing environments for QC team to test each release, and performing the actual deployments (sometimes with multiple emergency releases a week meaning working until 9 or later). - Fixes the bugs other people can't figure out or can't do. - Acts like the team lead more than the 'team lead'. - After starting the first week of scrum completed 10 of the 22 items (and half of the estimated points) in the sprint with 6 total developers on the team. - 60 hour weeks average.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:40
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Should be making, or expect to be making?
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Nov 19, 2014 02:50
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Wardende posted:I need a new goddamn job I make $70k in san francisco as a software engineer. kill me got a new one, up to $120!!!
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Nov 19, 2014 03:10
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Cicero posted:Should be making, or expect to be making? Maybe 'expect' is way more than what 'should' actually is. Edit: I mean maybe it's just that my expectations are unrealistic and I'm bitter about it :/ Cryolite fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 03:14
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Wardende posted:got a new one, up to $120!!! cptmath you done good in the world.
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Nov 19, 2014 05:35
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Cicero posted:I think the average new grad salary for CS majors is like the low 60s right now, so in the more expensive cities it's definitely higher than that, and the top tier companies even give six figure compensation to new grads. Yeah, Microsoft starts *most* new hires at 98k. I was an intern there and made a salary that would equal this if projected.
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Nov 20, 2014 02:35
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thetroof posted:Yeah, Microsoft starts *most* new hires at 98k. I was an intern there and made a salary that would equal this if projected. Raw salary numbers are useless without context. Seattle's cost of living is high (relatively). 98k in Asheville is not 98k in Seattle which is not 98k in SF or Boston
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Nov 20, 2014 05:18
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Markov Chain Chomp posted:One bedrooms in this area can be found for 2000 - 2500 / mo. Holy loving poo poo e: I could literally make double or triple my salary if I moved to the USA. Healthcare costs would probably kill me though, and I could never afford buying an apartment hackbunny fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 14:21
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hackbunny posted:Holy loving poo poo Well the trick is to move to the cheaper areas. In Durham, NC you might only make, say, 95k as a senior software engineer, but the rent would be like 800 bucks a month instead of 2500. There are a bunch of other areas similar - like Seattle has amazing opportunities and not crazy rent, Austin/Dallas, Philadelphia (within commuting distance by train to NYC, not absurd rent)...
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Nov 20, 2014 14:34
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Well the trick is to move to the cheaper areas. In Durham, NC you might only make, say, 95k as a senior software engineer, but the rent would be like 800 bucks a month instead of 2500. There are a bunch of other areas similar - like Seattle has amazing opportunities and not crazy rent, Austin/Dallas, Philadelphia (within commuting distance by train to NYC, not absurd rent)... I live in the Raleigh/Durham area and before getting a house I paid $850/mo for a decent apartment around 1300 sqft, and really that's on the high end because it was a nice area.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:50
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hackbunny posted:Holy loving poo poo While there are plenty of folks in the US with real problems due to health care costs (and I'm sure the Italian media plays up these stories, just as the US media plays up stories of Canadians waiting months for heart surgery), software developers are generally not among them. Unless you have a chronic condition that somehow disqualifies you from your employer's health plan, healthcare costs would probably not kill you given the typical employer subsidy. To illustrate, my employer is an MSB with a mediocre health care plan and my costs are $470/month (I have family coverage - if I were single my costs would be $150/mo) with a 6k deductible and a 2k company contribution (so my "bridge" amount is 4k; if I were single I would have a 3k deductible with a 1k contribution resulting in a bridge of 2k). On a typical year where I don't run up any significant medical expenses, I spend $5640 (470*12) on health care. If I run up a massive bill from some grievous trauma that leaves me or my wife or child in a full body cast with a catheter for a month, my family's health care expenses for the year are $9640. There's a complicated rollover system for the employer contribution that reduces the employee's worst-case outlay when you've had low costs the year before as well. Most MicroGoogeBookAzon-ish large software companies have significantly better plans. Microsoft famously had an all-expenses-paid employee health insurance program until the recent health care reforms, and their employees still pay close to nothing for health care.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:13
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Blotto Skorzany posted:Most MicroGoogeBookAzon-ish large software companies have significantly better plans. Microsoft famously had an all-expenses-paid employee health insurance program until the recent health care reforms, and their employees still pay close to nothing for health care. And some smaller ones, depending on where they're pulling talent. My company is a drop in the bucket compared to those guys, but since we're in Silicon Valley and compete for talent with Faceoglezon, they have to have at least some similarly competitive benefits. My share of the premium is around $150/month for family coverage. My plan has $300 individual deductibles and $2000 out of pocket max for each of me, my wife, and kid. My previous employer was not in a position to be competitive with those other companies. My share of the premium there would've been $650 per month, for coverage that was reasonably equivalent. So it basically amounted to an additional $6000 raise before you even looked at the rest of the comp plan.
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Nov 20, 2014 21:18
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Blotto Skorzany posted:... with a 6k deductible and a 2k company contribution (so my "bridge" amount is 4k; .... That's ... absurd. It's just way out there. And to think that this is normal for US (probably even good)... It boggles the mind, really.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:59
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Volguus posted:(probably even good) Meh, not really a good health plan. Generally speaking working as a white collar employee of a company with 90% blue collar employees means your benefits package isn't going to be great (it's the same as the folks on the manufacturing floor get). The annual review process for programmers being the same as the one for TIG welders and for box stackers is kinda funny too. On the upside, I get the period between Christmas to New Year's off without using vacation time because the manufacturing side of the house is shut down while the bean counters check inventory. Wrt. to high-deductible plans, with a programmer's salary it's not a big issue. I keep an emergency fund significantly larger than that, my annual bonus is larger than that, and it's a comparable number to the amount I'd be out if an 18 wheeler totaled my car (a much more likely event). When my wife had severe complications in her pregnancy that resulted in her and our son staying in the hospital for about a month, I was much gladder that modern medical technology was able to keep everyone healthy when forty years ago I would have had two funerals to attend than I was ticked that I had to foot *crunches numbers* about 2.8% of the bill. Some other health care system would probably be better than the patchwork of public and quasiprivate plans the US has, but it's far from doomsday.
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Nov 21, 2014 15:04
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evol262 posted:Raw salary numbers are useless without context. Seattle's cost of living is high (relatively). 98k in Asheville is not 98k in Seattle which is not 98k in SF or Boston Sure. But 98k in Seattle is a lot in Seattle, for entry-level anything. And for context, I live in Seattle.
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Nov 21, 2014 15:59
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thetroof posted:Sure. But 98k in Seattle is a lot in Seattle, for entry-level anything. And for context, I live in Seattle. I meant it as a comment on this thread in general rather than Seattle specifically
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Nov 21, 2014 17:52
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hackbunny posted:Holy loving poo poo
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Nov 21, 2014 19:01
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