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TOILETLORD posted:also i work in a union currently, all my raises are determined by how many hours for the company i work over time and nothing else so i work less than people doing the same work as me for higher pay. this is what people mean when they say unions are for the lazy, they mean it limits incentive to work. That's the loving point. Lol at people who don't realize your employer has the advantage over you as an individual in every dealing. Employers inherently try to get the most for the least out of their employees and a union structurally turns the tables on an inherently unequal arrangement. Most people are too stupid and culturally indoctrinated these days to realize this though.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:27
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hey getthis guys, unions are lazy, now let me tell you how awesome i am for slowly killing myself working my rear end off every day making pennies on the dollar for my contribution to some remote billionaires' pocketbook and living in mortal terror of arbitrarily losing my job
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Oct 29, 2014 19:29
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Unionize GBS.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:30
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Pornographic Memory posted:hey getthis guys, unions are lazy, now let me tell you how awesome i am for slowly killing myself working my rear end off every day making pennies on the dollar for my contribution to some remote billionaires' pocketbook and living in mortal terror of arbitrarily losing my job I've always wondered how getting overworked and underpaid became a badge of honor for so many Americans.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:40
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eric posted:I've always wondered how getting overworked and underpaid became a badge of honor for so many Americans. treating workers with respect is socialist and therefore unamerican
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Oct 29, 2014 19:42
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ArbitraryC posted:I know "union workers are lazy" is one of those common knowledge things but don't all the stats actually show they're on average more productive? Depends on the industry and what their pay/benefits are.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:45
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eric posted:I've always wondered how getting overworked and underpaid became a badge of honor for so many Americans. Its really loving sad when your blue collar coworkers flat out say they're aware their working to make someone else rich. Of course they also think they'll own their own business one day.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:46
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TOILETLORD posted:also i work in a union currently, all my raises are determined by how many hours for the company i work over time and nothing else so i work less than people doing the same work as me for higher pay. this is what people mean when they say unions are for the lazy, they mean it limits incentive to work. If you did the same job without the union you probably wouldn't ever get meaningful raises or benefits, and if you complained about it you would be told to go work somewhere else (that will also never give you meaningful raises or benefits). At this point in time if you don't have a unique or highly in demand skillset you need to be in a union to be treated like a human being. Also, why is a "free market" (as defined by Libertarians) a desirable thing?
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Oct 29, 2014 19:47
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It's almost as if libertarians are dumb as poo poo when u think about it
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Oct 29, 2014 19:48
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City of Tampa posted:Also, why is a "free market" (as defined by Libertarians) a desirable thing? It will make the natural hierarchy emerge, which I as a rational hardworking individual, will be towards the top of.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:52
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Q: Shouldn't libertarians be logically consistent? A: I'm a captain of industry
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Oct 29, 2014 20:02
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ArbitraryC posted:I know "union workers are lazy" is one of those common knowledge things but don't all the stats actually show they're on average more productive? Difficult to tell, really. Unions tend to be present in large scale industry now and don't really appear in the US south and in smaller shops/companies. So the whole thing boils down to if the non-union part suppliers are more productive or if their union counterparts assembling and doing minor manufacturing are more productive. If you measure it in dollars the union shops look like they are putting out more value when they send out cars or boats or whatever. Now for everyone's favorite evidence type, Anecdotal: I was contracting to a major industrial company that moved a ton of operations to the South to escape unions in the company's home state. You could pay the people there $13 an hour with no paid time off or benefits for the same job someone here would make $25+ an hour with time and a half overtime and 2 weeks of vacation and full medical and dental. It was a great deal until the company had to hire double the number of people because during hunting season you may not see half the staff on any day of the week as they were in the woods. Say what you want about union workers, but they're there every day if only to make sure they can file a complaint with the union if you even think about doing something that falls under their job description.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:34
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Lazyfire posted:It was a great deal until the company had to hire double the number of people because during hunting season you may not see half the staff on any day of the week as they were in the woods. It's almost like employees are human beings with wants and desires to use their brief and fleeting lives in a way other than working all the time and a business could anticipate and work around these supposed shortcomings if they weren't obsessed with productivity and capital generation for its bosses and shareholders every single second of every single day.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:37
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mind the walrus posted:It's almost like employees are human beings with wants and desires to use their brief and fleeting lives in a way other than working all the time and a business could anticipate and work around these supposed shortcomings if they weren't obsessed with productivity and capital generation for its bosses and shareholders every single second of every single day. This is some liberal, hippy bullshit. What the hell man?
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Oct 29, 2014 20:53
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idk some libertarians i know think unions are fine, it is individuals organizing and working within the free market system to protect their own interests, negotiating contracts and agreements with corporations. no reason for that to be illegal.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:12
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Get this: salaried workers don't have incentive to put a lot of hours in cause it doesn't matter. While the minimum wage copy center jockey will scrape and beg for anything over 16 hours a week
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Oct 29, 2014 21:34
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i hate public sector unions and a lot of labor law but private unions are fine
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Oct 29, 2014 21:59
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5% of libertarians are true believers who have a distinct political philosophy, but the rest are just Republicans who want to smoke weed, hth op
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Oct 29, 2014 22:28
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Libertarianism is far more about (a specific kind) of individualism than freedom, so opposing unions, a collectivist institution, is entirely within their purview. The real question is why they aren't agitating to tear down the Knights of Columbus and VFW halls, but I guess even Libertarians need a place to play bingo.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:32
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I love when low level salaried people with a BA from some lovely directional school start slamming unions and how they're communism and for lazy fucks as they wonder why their paycheck no longer buys what it used to.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:52
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27kDtIoL1L4
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Oct 29, 2014 22:52
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Parallax Scroll posted:they also dont want taxes to pay for roads This joke is the best post in the entire thread. Also just like crazies in the US have gotten lots of people to take the bible literally even though historically it hasn't been. They've also gotten to them to view the market as sacrosanct and capitalists as it's loving priests and ignore like 500 years of the history of capitalism and the well known issues and responses to them that have historically existed. Also I'm gay.
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Oct 29, 2014 23:25
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imo if you're against organized labor you should also be against organized capital so basically it only makes sense for hardcore fight club fanatics who wish they were tyler durden because their mom was mean to them once
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Oct 29, 2014 23:38
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Zeno-25 posted:That's the loving point. Lol at people who don't realize your employer has the advantage over you as an individual in every dealing. Employers inherently try to get the most for the least out of their employees and a union structurally turns the tables on an inherently unequal arrangement. Most people are too stupid and culturally indoctrinated these days to realize this though. Well, actually this only applies when there is a surplus labor pool. The United States has been in this state pretty much since the end of World War II so it has become status quo. Hopefully ebola will come over and kill off half the population and then employees will have the power.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:34
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i am unironically a libertarian in real life. i am not kidding
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Oct 30, 2014 00:36
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Remember libertarians want the government to build a giant expensive fence to keep the mexicans out when the free market suggests that an employer should be able to hire whoever they want.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:38
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:Remember libertarians want the government to build a giant expensive fence to keep the mexicans out when the free market suggests that an employer should be able to hire whoever they want. free movement of capital is appropriate in situations where free movement of people may not be
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Oct 30, 2014 00:40
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TEAYCHES posted:free movement of capital is appropriate in situations where free movement of people may not be People are capital.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:42
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:People are capital. no, they are resources
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Oct 30, 2014 00:43
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much like oil.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:45
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I thought libertarians supported unions... It's workers bargaining to get the most capital for themselves by raising their net work by acting as a collective
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Oct 30, 2014 00:47
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Bum the Sad posted:I thought libertarians supported unions... It's workers bargaining to get the most capital for themselves by raising their net work by acting as a collective Bum the Sad posted:collective Bum the Sad posted:collective
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Oct 30, 2014 00:48
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you don't really believe that
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Oct 30, 2014 00:51
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Xenocides posted:Well, actually this only applies when there is a surplus labor pool. The United States has been in this state pretty much since the end of World War II so it has become status quo. Hopefully ebola will come over and kill off half the population and then employees will have the power. The Black Death was one of the major contributing factors to the Industrial Revolution. "Throw more filthy peasants at it" was no longer a viable option, as workers now had more value due to the much reduced labor pool.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:51
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KlavoHunter posted:The Black Death was one of the major contributing factors to the Industrial Revolution. "Throw more filthy peasants at it" was no longer a viable option, as workers now had more value due to the much reduced labor pool. Poe's Lawing hard but  if this was meant to be a joke.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:03
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ashgromnies posted:you don't really believe that basically anything that distorts the free market, like union contracts which prevent employers from having rational hiring/firing/promotion/benefits policies, is bad. the real truth is that unions are bad for workers just as they are bad for employers. putting a shackle on the efficiency and growth of the company you work for isnt going to work out for you in the end, look at american car companies
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Oct 30, 2014 01:09
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mind the walrus posted:Poe's Lawing hard but The Black Death was not what that man up there said it was but the Great Plague in the 17th Century was
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Oct 30, 2014 01:13
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Filboid Studge posted:The Black Death was not what that man up there said it was but the Great Plague in the 17th Century was See that makes sense.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:15
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Filboid Studge posted:The Black Death was not what that man up there said it was but the Great Plague in the 17th Century was the black death did spark economic turmoil that anticipated the labor movements of the industrial age tho
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Oct 30, 2014 01:17
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TEAYCHES posted:basically anything that distorts the free market, like union contracts which prevent employers from having rational hiring/firing/promotion/benefits policies, is bad. the real truth is that unions are bad for workers just as they are bad for employers. putting a shackle on the efficiency and growth of the company you work for isnt going to work out for you in the end, look at american car companies Blaming unions for the state of American Car Companies six years ago is kind of dumb because the unions were the first part of the company to give up things to keep the companies running while the top level people who had driven the companies into bankruptcy with poor management and products still got paid a few dozen times what the average worker made to run the company into the ground.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:41
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