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Kundus
Oct 30, 2014
Don Mattingly:
years active (14) < years on the ballot (15)

A rare "feat", and won't happen again under current eligibility and voting rules. I'd list others who went through the same thing, but I can't find a list of "stayed on the ballot for 15 years, didn't get in." The only other person who came to mind where this happened as well was Thurman Munson :(.

And despite the usual talk of a last year bump I doubt it applies to a guy who got 8%. So Mattingly could also end up under 5% and therefore doubleplus kicked off the ballot.

bawfuls posted:

Bochy has 3 rings now and as far as managers go that makes him pretty much a lock eventually.

Bumgarner is 25 and has only 4 full seasons under his belt so talking about his HoF case is premature and pointless.

yeah totally agreed

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bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

Badfinger posted:

You're not suggesting we do our own ballots of who we would like to see elected like we've done previously, but rather who we think the writers will actually deign to knight into the Holy Order of the Baseball Empire?
yes, exactly.

regfairfield
May 22, 2005

FlamingLiberal posted:

My conservative guess is Smoltz, Big Unit, Pedro, Biggio

Pedro should be a no doubt Hall of Famer but I don't know if he gets in first ballot. His entire case rests on adjusting his numbers for the era he pitched in which a big chunk of voters rarely do. He'd be one of the worst Hall of Fame starters in terms of wins and innings pitched, and even his ERA is only middle of the pack. MLB.com took a poll of 40 writers in July and Pedro only got 75% support. He should be the first guy you vote for on this ballot after Bonds and Clemens but if he does get in it's going to be by a slim margin.

corn on the cop
Oct 12, 2012

Break what must be broken, once for all, that's all, and take the suffering on oneself.

― Corey Dostoyevsky

regfairfield posted:

He'd be one of the worst Hall of Fame starters in terms of wins and innings pitched, and even his ERA is only middle of the pack.

Pitchers with a lower career ERA than Pedro Martinez (min. 2500 IP, 1920-present):

Whitey Ford
Jim Palmer
Tom Seaver
Juan Marichal
Bob Gibson

regfairfield
May 22, 2005

Poonerman posted:

Pitchers with a lower career ERA than Pedro Martinez (min. 2500 IP, 1920-present):

Whitey Ford
Jim Palmer
Tom Seaver
Juan Marichal
Bob Gibson

Yeah, my fault on that one I play indexed that without looking at context.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006

regfairfield posted:

Pedro should be a no doubt Hall of Famer but I don't know if he gets in first ballot. His entire case rests on adjusting his numbers for the era he pitched in which a big chunk of voters rarely do. He'd be one of the worst Hall of Fame starters in terms of wins and innings pitched, and even his ERA is only middle of the pack. MLB.com took a poll of 40 writers in July and Pedro only got 75% support. He should be the first guy you vote for on this ballot after Bonds and Clemens but if he does get in it's going to be by a slim margin.

:lol: John Smoltz got a higher percentage than Pedro. I'm assuming this is first ballot bullshit or something. :negative:

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



40 writers out of the 600+ that vote isn't the best barometer.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.

tadashi posted:

:lol: John Smoltz got a higher percentage than Pedro. I'm assuming this is first ballot bullshit or something. :negative:

Smoltz is also first ballot. He's getting the bump for being in the Maddux/Glavine trio.

ZenVulgarity
Oct 9, 2012

I made the hat by transforming my zen

gently caress Pedro but yes he should get in

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Do you smell what The Mauk is cooking?
You people are nuts Pedro is getting in no problem.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

regfairfield posted:

Pedro should be a no doubt Hall of Famer but I don't know if he gets in first ballot. His entire case rests on adjusting his numbers for the era he pitched in which a big chunk of voters rarely do. He'd be one of the worst Hall of Fame starters in terms of wins and innings pitched, and even his ERA is only middle of the pack. MLB.com took a poll of 40 writers in July and Pedro only got 75% support. He should be the first guy you vote for on this ballot after Bonds and Clemens but if he does get in it's going to be by a slim margin.

Pedro's case is that he had an insane peak. What era adjustment would they need to understand that an ERA under 2 is great?

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

I'm looking forward to the "Blah blah 2003 ALCS blah blah Schilling proved what a big game pitcher looks like in 2004 blah blah" articles

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?

Intruder posted:

I'm looking forward to the "Blah blah 2003 ALCS blah blah Schilling proved what a big game pitcher looks like in 2004 blah blah" articles

Pedro will cruise in easily. He had enough famous great post season moments that he won't get a choker tag. Grady Little gets all the heat for 03.

Schilling is the best postseason pitcher of all time and should be in too.

ZenVulgarity
Oct 9, 2012

I made the hat by transforming my zen

MourningView posted:

Pedro will cruise in easily. He had enough famous great post season moments that he won't get a choker tag. Grady Little gets all the heat for 03.

Schilling is the best postseason pitcher of all time and should be in too.

Only if Mussina gets in.

oldfan
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."
If Pedro doesn't get in first ballot it's going to be because he's, if not quite in the Piazza/Bagwell class where most are assuming PED use, probably at least in the Biggio class where it's a thought to many. But I'd also be stunned if he didn't.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006

I wonder if Boyer will get solid support since the people who played with or against him might respect his glove more than people who didn't (even though that's a thing he's known for but I never put it past writers to get the narrative wrong).

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

MourningView posted:

Schilling is the best postseason pitcher of all time

Mo Rivera

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION



Toilet Rascal

Timby posted:

Mo Rivera

ahem

ZenVulgarity
Oct 9, 2012

I made the hat by transforming my zen


141 IP and a .7 ERA :laffo:

regfairfield
May 22, 2005

leokitty posted:

Pedro's case is that he had an insane peak. What era adjustment would they need to understand that an ERA under 2 is great?

Maybe I got scared by that poll more than I should have.

Ice To Meet You
Mar 5, 2007

ZenVulgarity posted:

141 IP and a .7 ERA :laffo:

True, but the ERA would have been higher if he hadn't made the throwing error that directly led to that play. Very unclutch

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

jeffersonlives posted:

If Pedro doesn't get in first ballot it's going to be because he's, if not quite in the Piazza/Bagwell class where most are assuming PED use, probably at least in the Biggio class where it's a thought to many. But I'd also be stunned if he didn't.
People are seriously going to suggest Pedro was on PED's? :psyboom:

At least with Biggio they have the dumb excuse that "he had big muscles"

oldfan
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."

bawfuls posted:

People are seriously going to suggest Pedro was on PED's? :psyboom:

At least with Biggio they have the dumb excuse that "he had big muscles"

Anyone who was closely affiliated with Angel Presinal is going to be under a microscope for steroid usage. This will come up for Cano and Pujols too.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

bawfuls posted:

People are seriously going to suggest Pedro was on PED's? :psyboom:

At least with Biggio they have the dumb excuse that "he had big muscles"
People have also suggested Bagwell was on PED's with pretty much no shred of proof. There's an entire group of people now that is literally running on the assumption that everyone who played baseball from about 1990 to 2010 is tainted.

Bregor
May 31, 2013

People are idiots, Leslie.

Crazy Ted posted:

People have also suggested Bagwell was on PED's with pretty much no shred of proof. There's an entire group of people now that is literally running on the assumption that everyone who played baseball from about 1990 to 2010 is tainted.

It's pretty disgusting tbh. I can't wait for that same group to contort themselves in knots trying to explain how Papi should get in.

alpha_destroy
Mar 23, 2010

Billy Butler: Fat Guy by Day, Doubles Machine by Night

Bregor posted:

It's pretty disgusting tbh. I can't wait for that same group to contort themselves in knots trying to explain how Papi should get in.

You're going to be real disappointed buddy. There will be no contortion necessary.

Kundus
Oct 30, 2014
I demand that LaVelle Neil write about how Pedro's HOF case is hurt by his lack of MVPs. :colbert:

"If he's so great then why didn't the writers at the time agree? History has spoken."

Kundus fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 31, 2014

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?

Kundus posted:

I demand that LaVelle Neil write about how Pedro's HOF case is hurt by his lack of MVPs. :colbert:

"If he's so great then why didn't the writers at the time agree? History has spoken."

What other pitcher did he do that for?

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的

Kundus posted:

"If he's so great then why didn't the writers at the time agree? History has spoken."

Nolan Ryan doesn't belong in the Hall.

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Do you smell what The Mauk is cooking?
No one is leaving Pedro off the ballot for merit based reasons

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.

ZenVulgarity posted:

Only if Mussina gets in.

Yes Mussina should also be in the hall of fame.

Ready! Set! Blow!
Jun 17, 2005

Red alert.

Crazy Ted posted:

People have also suggested Bagwell was on PED's with pretty much no shred of proof. There's an entire group of people now that is literally running on the assumption that everyone who played baseball from about 1990 to 2010 is tainted.

Meanwhile a lot of these same people vote for Jack Morris because he was a ~dominant pitcher in the heart of the steroid era~.

At least that's the justification I remember some guy using for voting for Morris but not Maddux.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Vlad Antlerkov posted:

Meanwhile a lot of these same people vote for Jack Morris because he was a ~dominant pitcher in the heart of the steroid era~.

At least that's the justification I remember some guy using for voting for Morris but not Maddux.
Still a marginally better justification than 'started a bunch of Opening Days'

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003

Vlad Antlerkov posted:

Meanwhile a lot of these same people vote for Jack Morris because he was a ~dominant pitcher in the heart of the steroid era~.

At least that's the justification I remember some guy using for voting for Morris but not Maddux.
They voted for him for two reasons:

1) More wins than any other pitcher in the 1980's
2) Game Seven of the 1991 World Series

They ignored a bunch of poo poo that easily argued against his inclusion in the Hall of Fame, like a career ERA that was barely below league average.

Kundus
Oct 30, 2014

MourningView posted:

What other pitcher did he do that for?

Hm, I want to say he supported Verlander in 2011 and people went :arghfist: hypocrite! :arghfist: in response maybe? The best was when he wrote a Trout > Cabrera article during The Great 2012 Hysteria, then the awards voting got released and turned out he voted for Miggy. Oh and then he was BBWAA president in 2014.

Baseball.


Groucho Marxist posted:

No one is leaving Pedro off the ballot for merit based reasons

It's The Hall of Fame, not The Hall o-:commissar:

HulkaMatt
Feb 14, 2006

BIG BICEPS SHOHEI


I feel like Delgado is going to be the latest ONE AND DONE victim and giving his career a look that just feels very wrong.

I don't know if he's a Hall of Famer or not but man he had some good numbers.

Darude - Adam Sandstorm
Aug 16, 2012

Carlos will always have a place in the hall of my main dinger mashing cool dudes so there's that at least.

Kundus
Oct 30, 2014
Crude comps inbound. Delgado is ~David Ortiz without the postseason and with a full career of bad defense, or ~Will Clark with dingers instead of passable defense. There are worse first basemen in already. Worse first basemen stuck on the ballot for a while (though The Thrill was 1 and done). A great, non-HOF player and on a crowded ballot.

On the other hand, Carlos Del gahht it :unsmith:

got any sevens
Feb 9, 2013

by Cyrano4747
Vote for Edgar, Moyer, and Rose

:mikedrop:

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Ice To Meet You
Mar 5, 2007

Jamie Moyer will be 55 years old when he is first eligible for Hall of Fame voting.

Adam Eaton made the ballot this year, at age 36.

Ice To Meet You fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Nov 1, 2014

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