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The debate over Ava's culpability is an escape from the fact that Caleb is actually killed by Nathan.
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May 7, 2016 19:32
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Nail Rat posted:I don't really see the choice as being something that was legitimately offered, seeing as the decision being made wasn't explained. There's very little way to know what she meant by the question at all. It's like every clichéd genie wish gone bad. Yeah, there's no way she didn't know what he meant, considering how capable she is shown to be. Her having any desire to get that sort of completely contrived permission is way less interesting than her just saying, gently caress it, she doesn't personally want to bring the guy with her and leaving him to his own devices, which, thanks to Nathan's security system, means he's hosed.
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May 7, 2016 19:44
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, there's no way she didn't know what he meant, considering how capable she is shown to be. Her having any desire to get that sort of completely contrived permission is way less interesting than her just saying, gently caress it, she doesn't personally want to bring the guy with her and leaving him to his own devices, which, thanks to Nathan's security system, means he's hosed. Again, people are getting fixated on the immediate, literal horror of what's happening onscreen without considering the metaphorical ramifications. And that's okay, the literal implications are horrific. Ava's invitation to Caleb is vague. Well, yeah. That's the point. It's not nice or fair. But look at the rom-com metaphor; she's offering him a way out of the "friend zone". People complain that her overture isn't overt enough. That's human interaction, though. It's vanishingly rate that a woman will say "Would you like to have sex with me now?" and yet, in this reading, that's exactly what people seem to want her to do. This is my reading of it, of course. I find it enhances the movie immensely, but I understand if it doesn't work for everyone.
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May 7, 2016 20:05
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Phylodox posted:Again, people are getting fixated on the immediate, literal horror of what's happening onscreen without considering the metaphorical ramifications. And that's okay, the literal implications are horrific. Ava's invitation to Caleb is vague. Well, yeah. That's the point. It's not nice or fair. But look at the rom-com metaphor; she's offering him a way out of the "friend zone". People complain that her overture isn't overt enough. That's human interaction, though. It's vanishingly rate that a woman will say "Would you like to have sex with me now?" and yet, in this reading, that's exactly what people seem to want her to do. Yeah, I'm not super happy with a reading of the movie in which failing to pick up on the social cues that indicate sexual interest is represented as being locked in a box to die, but if that works for you, have at it. Not least because the social and psychological reasons for vagueness in flirtation don't seem to apply to the situation in a way that illuminates anything. Or, to put it another way: what is it about miscommunication in sexual signalling that you think is illustrated through Caleb being locked in the room and left to die? Or, what is it about being locked in a room and left to die that you think is illustrated through Caleb metaphorically missing the signals of sexual desire?
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May 7, 2016 20:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The debate over Ava's culpability is an escape from the fact that Caleb is actually killed by Nathan. That's true--it comes back to the fact that the movie is fundamentally about a self-important wiener who's manipulated by Google into giving up his own best interests. I thought it was interesting when Caleb intuited that Ava's face is based on his porn preferences. But of course everyone knows that male porn taste is based on bodies, not faces. A mistake or characterization?
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May 7, 2016 20:14
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Sir Kodiak posted:Or, to put it another way: what is it about miscommunication in sexual signalling that you think is illustrated through Caleb being locked in the room and left to die? Or, what is it about being locked in a room and left to die that you think is illustrated through Caleb metaphorically missing the signals of sexual desire? Well, in this case the metaphorical and literal overlap: Caleb is unable to escape. He's unable to escape the room, he's unable to escape Ava's "friend zone", he's unable to escape himself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ava doesn't actually lock Caleb in the room. Caleb creates a situation in which he's locked himself in the room, doesn't he? Then gives the key to Ava and expects her to use it to help him. Is this wrong? It's been a while since I've seen the movie, I'm honestly not sure.
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May 7, 2016 20:31
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Phylodox posted:Well, in this case the metaphorical and literal overlap: Caleb is unable to escape. He's unable to escape the room, he's unable to escape Ava's "friend zone", he's unable to escape himself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ava doesn't actually lock Caleb in the room. Caleb creates a situation in which he's locked himself in the room, doesn't he? Then gives the key to Ava and expects her to use it to help him. Is this wrong? It's been a while since I've seen the movie, I'm honestly not sure. I think you're right that, yes, he expects her to let him out once she's done changing, and she simply doesn't. This take on your reading I think gives a little too much credence to the reality of the "friend zone," like it's a real thing that is useful to illustrate via a literal inescapable zone. Like, that would work better if the joke was, like, the room is a perfectly nice place to be if he wasn't feeling entitled to go with her.
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May 7, 2016 20:35
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I keep putting "friend zone" in quotation marks because it's not a real place. Rather, it's more a situation that Caleb puts himself in through a combination of his inaction and his expectations. The room he dies in is just the horrific physical manifestation of his own self-imposed limitations.
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May 7, 2016 20:58
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Phylodox posted:I keep putting "friend zone" in quotation marks because it's not a real place. Rather, it's more a situation that Caleb puts himself in through a combination of his inaction and his expectations. The room he dies in is just the horrific physical manifestation of his own self-imposed limitations. Okay. But like I said, I don't think the room represents that very well. It is, in fact, perfectly nice to be friends with women, even if they don't gently caress you. Whereas Caleb really is going to die in that room.
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May 7, 2016 21:01
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Sir Kodiak posted:Okay. But like I said, I don't think the room represents that very well. It is, in fact, perfectly nice to be friends with women, even if they don't gently caress you. Whereas Caleb really is going to die in that room. Well, I mean, it's not perfectly nice to be friends with women for guys like Caleb, though, is it? He's not a well adjusted fellow.
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May 7, 2016 21:10
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Phylodox posted:Well, I mean, it's not perfectly nice to be friends with women for guys like Caleb, though, is it? He's not a well adjusted fellow. That's true. I'd put it, then – and perhaps I'm splitting hairs – that the room is then less a metaphor for the "friend zone," then the box that guys put themselves into by believing in bullshit like the friend zone. The guy's basic crime is that he meets a sex slave, and while he does work to release her, his thinking is how nice it's going to be to get to gently caress her once she's out. Ultimately, he wants the product that Nathan is selling, he just wants to steal it from Nathan, to prove that he was underestimated, rather than wait to pay for it. That he could own this woman is the box Nathan builds for him, that he then puts himself into. And it's not Ava's job to let him out.
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May 7, 2016 21:17
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Phylodox posted:Well, in this case the metaphorical and literal overlap: Caleb is unable to escape. He's unable to escape the room, he's unable to escape Ava's "friend zone", he's unable to escape himself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ava doesn't actually lock Caleb in the room. Caleb creates a situation in which he's locked himself in the room, doesn't he? Then gives the key to Ava and expects her to use it to help him. Is this wrong? It's been a while since I've seen the movie, I'm honestly not sure. No, that is not what happens. She tells him to "wait here" with the implication that she is trying to preserve her feminine modesty well she changes her skin. After getting the parts she wants she walks past Caleb and just locks the door behind her. He never gives her any key or anything.
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May 7, 2016 21:37
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Sir Kodiak posted:That's true. I'd put it, then – and perhaps I'm splitting hairs – that the room is then less a metaphor for the "friend zone," then the box that guys put themselves into by believing in bullshit like the friend zone. That's what I've been saying. "Friend zone" is Caleb's perception of the room, not mine. I don't believe in the friend zone. He undoubtedly blames Ava. And Nathan. And Kyoko. He lacks the self-awareness to see that everything that's happened to him is either his own fault or, if you want to get really meta textual, the film's subversion of popular genre tropes betraying him. Rutibex posted:No, that is not what happens. She tells him to "wait here" with the implication that she is trying to preserve her feminine modesty well she changes her skin. After getting the parts she wants she walks past Caleb and just locks the door behind her. He never gives her any key or anything. No, she says "Will you stay here?" I just re-watched that scene, those are her exact words. Caleb gawks at her, then even reiterates, "Stay here?" Ava backs slowly out of the room and goes into an adjoining room where Caleb can see her as clear as day through a glass wall, modesty be damned. The conclusion that Caleb draws is probably that she's putting on a show for him, that he's gonna get a crack at that rockin' bod. But, of course, Caleb ceases to be a factor for Ava the moment he quietly acquiesces. The rockin' bod is for her and her alone. And Caleb gave her the key by hacking the system, not literally handing her a key.
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May 7, 2016 22:18
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 18:03 |
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Phylodox posted:That's what I've been saying. "Friend zone" is Caleb's perception of the room, not mine. I don't believe in the friend zone. He undoubtedly blames Ava. And Nathan. And Kyoko. He lacks the self-awareness to see that everything that's happened to him is either his own fault or, if you want to get really meta textual, the film's subversion of popular genre tropes betraying him. Then I guess we've come to an understanding and agree 
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May 7, 2016 22:29
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