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i am harry posted:Are you saying that the federal government keeps the price of a single red bell pepper at ~$2? The federal government keeps prices of most crops grown in the US at levels that ensure farmer's profits - this how nearly all farm subsidies work. Incidentally this is why its so hilarious when idiots claim that HFCS is used because farm subsidies keep it cheap - they do the opposite. Bell peppers are grown in the US plenty. South American production only comes into play for people like you who demand to have them when they're in season on the opposite side of the world. Trying to grow more of them in the US wouldn't help you outside of season here unless you're going to put them in indoor facilities with artificial growing cycles.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:18
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on the left posted:American citizens overseas is a big issue if you want to replace the entitlement system, since the largest entitlement (social security) is collectible overseas. Additionally, the 14th amendment guarantees that the number of overseas citizens would jump drastically if we were writing checks to every citizen. I'm not proposing GMI for every citizen. I'm proposing GMI for domestic citizens who meet strict qualifications and disqualify expats automatically. gently caress, if you want to argue about morals, a more relevant issue would be whether what convictions disqualify you from GMI eligibility. Anyone convicted of any felony? Drug offences? But no, you're focused on  poor, voluntary expats In conclusion, America: Love it or leave it. You chose to leave it. Nintendo Kid posted:The federal government keeps prices of most crops grown in the US at levels that ensure farmer's profits - this how nearly all farm subsidies work. "keeps" is both an oversimplification and an understatement. I was researching the issue a few months ago for West Africa's developing famine. The portion of food held in reserve has shown a downward trend since the early 80s. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 01:18
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on the left posted:Additionally, the 14th amendment guarantees that the number of overseas citizens would jump drastically if we were writing checks to every citizen. I love how conservatives are always trying to drag us back to the 18th Century by mounting an attack on the 14th Amendment. "Silly liberals, of course your social programs would work as intended, if only you'd repeal that dastardly 14th Amendment and let the country return to the glory days of the Dred Scott precedent, where only the Right Kind of Folk get citizenship and government services, and blackie isn't allowed to take our money and fiddle all day"
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Nov 4, 2014 01:19
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I don't really see how from a consensus that living in the U.S. is terrible you than reach this hostility to people who make their living outside of it.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:21
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EasternBronze posted:I don't really see how from a consensus that living in the U.S. is terrible you than reach this hostility to people who make their living outside of it. Living in America is loving awesome, especially when you're a citizen with a GMI.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:22
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Cnidaria posted:I don't see why people are still debating this since it was answered on the first page. Just from a moral perspective alone we should have basic income and disagreeing is pretty hosed up considering the current state of wealth inequality and the fact that there are millions of people in the year 2014 with food insecurity in the US alone. Also why do we care if there are people who aren't employed? There currently not enough jobs to employ everyone in the country and this problem will likely get worse as more jobs are automated. If production could increase without costing anyone anything it would have already happened*. Automation takes people to design build and maintain the equipment. How much automation is optimal depends on the relative costs of the skills needed to produce the machines and the skills which the machines replace. If manual labor becomes comparatively more expensive relative to skilled automation producing labor (because GMI causes low wage people to work less) then yes automation will fill in some of the gap. But under no circumstance will it increase output outright. Because again, if that was possible it would already happen. *I already know that someone is going to say "But the economy isn't at 100%!" - that still doesn't mean that increased production is free for producers. Slack production comes about because of unemployment primarily, not because businesses are paying people to twiddle their thumbs.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:23
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Nintendo Kid posted:The federal government keeps prices of most crops grown in the US at levels that ensure farmer's profits - this how nearly all farm subsidies work. Incidentally this is why its so hilarious when idiots claim that HFCS is used because farm subsidies keep it cheap - they do the opposite. What the gently caress are you talking about "people like me"? Specifically because they're $2 each year-round, my bell peppers grow in a pot in my back yard and they do exceptionally well with very little help thanks very much. Now let me come up with something people like you do...in the mean time, it's a sad state that we have poverty (and abysmal health) for the masses and dollars for the poor farmers. i am harry fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 01:23
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down with slavery posted:Continuing to post this idiocy isn't doing you any favors. Props on playing the anti-immigration card again, real classy. Go back to page 4 if you're confused. It's not anti-immigrant because they are technically never immigrants EasternBronze posted:I don't really see how from a consensus that living in the U.S. is terrible you than reach this hostility to people who make their living outside of it. Its the crab mentality My Imaginary GF posted:I'm not proposing GMI for every citizen. I'm proposing GMI for domestic citizens who meet strict qualifications and disqualify expats automatically. As I pointed out earlier, a major entitlement IS available to expats. Good luck replacing social security if you are telling a large portion of social security recipients to go get hosed. VitalSigns posted:I love how conservatives are always trying to drag us back to the 18th Century by mounting an attack on the 14th Amendment. Works out pretty well for Europe, Canada, and pretty much every other first world nation!
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Nov 4, 2014 01:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:Living in America is loving awesome, especially when you're a citizen with a GMI. Well considering that overseas citizens also pay taxes I don't see how you can justify excluding them from your minimum income scheme.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:24
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EasternBronze posted:Well considering that overseas citizens also pay taxes I don't see how you can justify excluding them from your minimum income scheme. Also, many overseas citizens (and former green card holders and other working visas) collect social security. The US will not default on the promises made to these people, except maybe to replace with a better benefit.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:26
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I'm not telling SS recipients to get hosed. I'm giving everyone a better option within America than SS. I would presume the program would be allowed to starve itself to death with further cuts after its replaced for most domestic citizens. It'll starve to death without intervention; far better to put a GMI in place before that occurs. EasternBronze posted:Well considering that overseas citizens also pay taxes I don't see how you can justify excluding them from your minimum income scheme. I was unaware of expats paying American sales and excise taxes on all of their purchases. Huh. Wonder how many expats are 100% honest about their finances and consumption and pay the appropriate taxes.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:27
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on the left posted:Also, many overseas citizens (and former green card holders and other working visas) collect social security. The US will not default on the promises made to these people, except maybe to replace with a better benefit. Replace with a better benefit domestically, default on the rest. You got a better plan to save social security? I can't think of any.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:29
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What if I live outside the U.S. for six months every year? Eight? Ten? If I just sit in America for three weeks every year is that enough to consider me a domestic citizen?
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Nov 4, 2014 01:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:I keep saying make it about domestic entitlement elimination, and you've got an economic issue that is sellable to the base. I don't get why people keep ignoring this fact to focus on The problem is that you can't fully eliminate 'entitlements.' At the very least you'd still want something like a single payer healthcare system since it's ultimately cheaper and more efficient than what we have now. In fact, one legitimate problem with basic income systems is how to deal with people who make bad decisions. We don't want anyone starving and it's costly to have people avoiding things like preventative care for financial reasons, so on some level we still need basic social safety nets.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:32
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Paradoxish posted:The problem is that you can't fully eliminate 'entitlements.' At the very least you'd still want something like a single payer healthcare system since it's ultimately cheaper and more efficient than what we have now. in fact,mother one legitimate problem with basic income systems is how to deal with people who make bad decisions. We don't want anyone starving and its costly to have people avoiding things like preventative care for financial reasons,msg on some level we still need basic social safety nets. You let them die. That's what happens when they make bad decisions throughout the life-cycle. You incarcerate them if they neglect their children and put a share of their GMI into a trust fund for the child to access when they turn 18 and apply for the appropriate programs and applications of those funds. Individuals have a right to die. If you think differently, you may be a Republican Congresscritter. Personally, if someone wants to spend their GMI on just booze and cigarettes, why stop them?
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Nov 4, 2014 01:37
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on the left posted:Works out pretty well for Europe, Canada, and pretty much every other first world nation! Ahahaha. Well if you hate the 14th Amendment, take it up with your ideological allies for making it necessary by refusing to let people who were born and lived here for generations enjoy the basic rights of citizenship. Y'all done hosed up there, you could have avoided this problem if you hadn't pissed off every decent person in the country. You should probably focus on less obviously racist policy because "Hey let's take citizenship away from those worthless blacks" hasn't been a winning issue for 150 years.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:38
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Is voting only going to be allowed for "domestic citizens" as well?
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Nov 4, 2014 01:44
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EasternBronze posted:Is voting only going to be allowed for "domestic citizens" as well? Your underlying point is a good one: A GMI denominated and disbursed in USD will produce inflationary pressures upon non-USD currencies and advance American global economic interests, paid for by taxation upon the global poor. Smart idea. Smart, smart idea. I think that's something that I can sell pretty well: finding a way to tax the global poor while eliminating entitlement eligibility within America. Its a fuckn  program.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:49
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I'm not sure why this discussion of expats matters? And I think framing basic income as a replacement for existing entitlements is broken. It can eventually do so, but there will be such massive resistance to it that starting small (like $1-6k per year) might be best. And at that rate, no existing programs could be dropped yet. The advantage of starting small is that you can conclusively prove some criticisms wrong without significant risk. For instance, the misguided and ignorant belief that it would result in inflation.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:49
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i am harry posted:What the gently caress are you talking about "people like me"? Specifically because they're $2 each year-round, my bell peppers grow in a pot in my back yard and they do exceptionally well with very little help thanks very much. Ok so you admit that your idea to make peppers cheaper by wasting a bunch of money on government farms for them is stupid? Great!
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Nov 4, 2014 01:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:I was unaware of expats paying American sales and excise taxes on all of their purchases. They do on all goods they purchase in America, just like everyone else who purchases things in America. Citizenship has nothing to do with excise and sales taxes. Hmm I wonder if domestic citizens are 100% honest about their finances and consumption and pay the appropriate taxes  It seems like you're making an argument for enforcement of tax policies, I'm glad we agree here. Were you trying to make a point or...? My Imaginary GF posted:Your underlying point is a good one: A GMI denominated and disbursed in USD will produce inflationary pressures upon non-USD currencies and advance American global economic interests, paid for by taxation upon the global poor. No clue what you're talking about here, this is what I actually said. EasternBronze posted:Well considering that overseas citizens also pay taxes I don't see how you can justify excluding them from your minimum income scheme. EasternBronze posted:What if I live outside the U.S. for six months every year? Eight? Ten? If I just sit in America for three weeks every year is that enough to consider me a domestic citizen? How does anything that I said relate to inflation or "American global economic interests"? EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 02:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:You let them die. That's what happens when they make bad decisions throughout the life-cycle. You incarcerate them if they neglect their children and put a share of their GMI into a trust fund for the child to access when they turn 18 and apply for the appropriate programs and applications of those funds. I'm in favor of mincome if it means that we get to adopt social darwinistic policies.
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Nov 4, 2014 02:06
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crazypenguin posted:I'm not sure why this discussion of expats matters? Look how well that worked when Obama turned to Durbin's advice on what to do for healthcare: Rather Rahm's single-payer system, we got lovely-rear end Obamacare. If you go in on a program like GMI, you go big or you go home. You need the impact to be felt before the next primary election; you need to sell it to elites, you need to sell it to social darwinists, and you need to sell it to your base. Preferrably, within the same soundbite and within a series digested in under 15 seconds. So, you don't start small. You start small, you're a loving idiot who gets blamed for every single issue that isn't fixed in a person's life while yelled at for everything bad that happens in the economy. You go big, or you go home. You set it at the level of $10/hr net for 40hr/week with 52 weeks/yr and no time off. gently caress, Treasury could do this poo poo via executive order if there was ever sufficient political will. And you know what? I'd do it if ya'll motherfuckers elected me to the slot. Let the Supreme Court deal with the issue as folks get their checks bi-monthly and treasury is ordered to ignore the court until a ruling is made while the issue is stalled at every level of the process and disputed for standing with the friendliest folks you can find. That's 20,800 net income for every individual in America over 18 registered to vote, check in the mail, permanent adresses within America for no less than 1 year only, mailed via USPS, and can only be cashed through an appropriate account at an approved bank which is HQ'd within America. If they want it direct deposited, they can fill in a form at their post office and mail it to the appropriately designated box under Treasury. You go big or you go loving home. I'd expect for impeachment to begin as soon as the process starts so its a matter of time where the more checks that get sent out for the longer period of time, the more of an improvement you'll see within the US economy. gently caress yes I expect the scheme to be accused of vote buying and dirupting the process. The economic question I have is, will you see a reduction in deficit with this program, and will you see GDP growth and a rise in corporate and financial earnings, and if so, how much and in what timeframe under different scenarios of low, medium, and high utilization and target penetration, and whether these results will be seen before completion of impeachment proceedings. on the left posted:I'm in favor of mincome if it means that we get to adopt social darwinistic policies. Unsurprisingly, so are Republicans.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:17
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The fact that this entire thread is being derailed by concern trolling over an issue that deals with less than 2% of Americans just goes to show the desperate lengths people will go through to argue against an idea without directly coming out and stating that they don't want to see money going to minorities/poor. Jesus loving Christ, like the idea of Americans living overseas is a completely insurmountable obstacle to ever implementing any policy.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:25
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archangelwar posted:The fact that this entire thread is being derailed by concern trolling over an issue that deals with less than 2% of Americans just goes to show the desperate lengths people will go through to argue against an idea without directly coming out and stating that they don't want to see money going to minorities/poor. Jesus loving Christ, like the idea of Americans living overseas is a completely insurmountable obstacle to ever implementing any policy. Well its an issue that directly effects some posters here so I guess we're going to try and discuss it, regardless of your insistence on tilting at those right-wing windmills. I'm sorry if speaking multiple languages and moving overseas for better healthcare triggers you or something.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:31
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archangelwar posted:The fact that this entire thread is being derailed by concern trolling over an issue that deals with less than 2% of Americans just goes to show the desperate lengths people will go through to argue against an idea without directly coming out and stating that they don't want to see money going to minorities/poor. Jesus loving Christ, like the idea of Americans living overseas is a completely insurmountable obstacle to ever implementing any policy. No, he pretty much came out and said it.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:34
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What countries can you move to if you aren't able to afford good healthcare here?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:34
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EasternBronze posted:Well its an issue that directly effects some posters here so I guess we're going to try and discuss it, regardless of your insistence on tilting at those right-wing windmills. I'm sorry if speaking multiple languages and moving overseas for better healthcare triggers you or something. What the gently caress are you even talking about? This is the first time I have even talked about the expat/diaspora issue in the entire thread, except for the one time I called you out for lying about taxes. I think the trigger thing might be some sort of projection man, why so angry?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:35
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archangelwar posted:The fact that this entire thread is being derailed by concern trolling over an issue that deals with less than 2% of Americans just goes to show the desperate lengths people will go through to argue against an idea without directly coming out and stating that they don't want to see money going to minorities/poor. Jesus loving Christ, like the idea of Americans living overseas is a completely insurmountable obstacle to ever implementing any policy. It's not concern trolling to point out the fiscal problems of mailing 20k to 240 million people, and the expected growth in numbers of US citizens once US citizenship has a cash NPV of well over 500k.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:35
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EasternBronze posted:Well its an issue that directly effects some posters here so I guess we're going to try and discuss it, regardless of your insistence on tilting at those right-wing windmills. I'm sorry if speaking multiple languages and moving overseas for better healthcare triggers you or something. America: Love it or leave it. You left. Your concerns are only America's when Americans decide you symbolize Americs. So, your social security goes bye-bye. If you want to voice your deep concern on this issue, come and attend events at a VIP table and have private time with the candidate to discuss issues candidly and openly. Whats that, you're overseas? Well gently caress a duck, you're SOL. I do wonder how an appropriate message of "let expats get it, too; that way we shift the tax burden onto the global poor" will play out. Hell, thats the only reason ya'll get social security benefits right now. E: on the left posted:It's not concern trolling to point out the fiscal problems of mailing 20k to 240 million people, and the expected growth in numbers of US citizens once US citizenship has a cash NPV of well over 500k. If that was really an issue, why isn't it a concern to wire out 6 trillion to 5 people over 9 months?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:36
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on the left posted:It's not concern trolling to point out the fiscal problems of mailing 20k to 240 million people, and the expected growth in numbers of US citizens once US citizenship has a cash NPV of well over 500k. Why would you need to mail? Christ get some better stupid complaints.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:38
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on the left posted:It's not concern trolling to point out the fiscal problems of mailing 20k to 240 million people, and the expected growth in numbers of US citizens once US citizenship has a cash NPV of well over 500k. We have already given you a simple answer. Don't mail checks to overseas citizens (or do, I don't loving care about such irrelevant details). We could sit around all day and debate over what percentage of the time people must spend in the US in order to qualify, but that is irrelevant minutia. That is exactly why what you are doing is concern trolling. You aren't actually interested in discussing the merits or value of a UBI, you just want to keep asserting that you don't want minorities and poor people to get your money but use a side issue like expats as cover.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:39
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Reminder that nationalism is just as repugnant as racism.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:America: Love it or leave it. So someone who worked on an H1B and gets kicked out of the country will get screwed out of his/her social security benefits because you are petty and spiteful?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:40
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Nintendo Kid posted:Why would you need to mail? Christ get some better stupid complaints. GMI is just a big government plan to redistribute wealth from working joes to the manufacturers of postage stamps. Don't fall for the lie.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:41
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on the left posted:So someone who worked on an H1B and gets kicked out of the country will get screwed out of his/her social security benefits because you are petty and spiteful? For gently caress's sake, we can have a transition period where we phase out old policy in favor of new. We don't have to flip the switch overnight. Once again, concern troll.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:41
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on the left posted:So someone who worked on an H1B and gets kicked out of the country will get screwed out of his/her social security benefits because you are petty and spiteful? ...do you not follow American politics at all? You seem to not understand how being 'petty and spiteful' is the only think keeping the government open right now. archangelwar posted:For gently caress's sake, we can have a transition period where we phase out old policy in favor of new. We don't have to flip the switch overnight. Once again, concern troll. Depends how you implement GMI. Decision of the FedChair? Yeah, you kinda do need it right now without a transition period and for at least two years. \/\/ CONSTANZA!!!! 
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Nov 4, 2014 03:43
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archangelwar posted:For gently caress's sake, we can have a transition period where we phase out old policy in favor of new. We don't have to flip the switch overnight. Once again, concern troll. No we have to posit a maximally ridiculous version of the policy and argue against that. What if the UBI checks were poisoned? That would obviously be bad, libtard. Geez, what a horrible plan UBI is for the metabolically active poor.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:44
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on the left posted:So someone who worked on an H1B and gets kicked out of the country will get screwed out of his/her social security benefits because you are petty and spiteful? So now you're complaining about the present situation? Because most h1b workers have a hell of a time getting social security benefits 30 years since they were in the country if they didn't actually stya in the country with permanent residency or citizenship by the time they're 65. And they sure as poo poo don't have much luck in getting social security disability while living outside the country.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:46
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archangelwar posted:What the gently caress are you even talking about? This is the first time I have even talked about the expat/diaspora issue in the entire thread, except for the one time I called you out for lying about taxes. I think the trigger thing might be some sort of projection man, why so angry? You didn't call me out for lying about anything, all of your overseas income is taxable. Nontaxable income is a special category of income that overseas income does not fall in to. Being able to claim a deduction is NOT the same as income being nontaxable. Have you ever actually filed a tax return before? Be honest. My Imaginary GF posted:America: Love it or leave it. As I said before, citizens overseas pay taxes and vote. There is no legal distinction between overseas and domestic citizens, we all file income tax returns and we all vote for representation in the government. If you can explain what the America tax burden has to do with the global poor, I'm all ears. Do citizens of Mexico or India file an income tax report to the IRS?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:47
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