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archangelwar posted:That is exactly why what you are doing is concern trolling. You aren't actually interested in discussing the merits or value of a UBI, you just want to keep asserting that you don't want minorities and poor people to get your money but use a side issue like expats as cover. I'm not concern trolling, because concern trolling would imply that i'm in favor of mincome. Also lol at goon argument strategy of "You have to support my ideas or you are a racist who hates poor people"
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Nov 4, 2014 03:51
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on the left posted:"You have to support my ideas or you are a racist who hates poor people" When it comes to the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, this is literally true.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:53
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EasternBronze posted:You didn't call me out for lying about anything, all of your overseas income is taxable. Nontaxable income is a special category of income that overseas income does not fall in to. Being able to claim a deduction is NOT the same as income being nontaxable. Have you ever actually filed a tax return before? Be honest. Income that you deduct is income that you do not pay taxes on. An overseas American filing taxes on foreign income, using the standard tax law, does not pay taxes on income until it exceeds ~95k, and can also deduct up to 30% living expenses. You are now having a semantic quibble over poo poo I didn't say (check my posts for the phrase "nontaxable income"). Unless you now want to claim that you pay taxes on a deduction... at this point it sounds like you will claim literally anything to avoid admitting you misspoke.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:55
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on the left posted:I'm not concern trolling, because concern trolling would imply that i'm in favor of mincome. Incorrect, concern trolling would imply that you would otherwise consider the merits of a discussion if it weren't for *insert concern here*. If you outright reject a mincome, why do you bother raising periphery concerns that are easily addressable? So either you are concern trolling, or just arguing in bad faith.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:57
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archangelwar posted:So either you are concern trolling, or just arguing in bad faith. Let me help here, it's both It's amateur economist/shots shots shots and he's been doing this poo poo for literally years. There's a reason he's on the most ignored users list.
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Nov 4, 2014 03:58
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archangelwar posted:Incorrect, concern trolling would imply that you would otherwise consider the merits of a discussion if it weren't for *insert concern here*. If you outright reject a mincome, why do you bother raising periphery concerns that are easily addressable? Pointing out reasons something won't work is not arguing in bad faith. Goons pretty much handwave away the massive impracticality of paying out 30% of GDP in cash payments, so why not point out any of the other reasons? down with slavery posted:Let me help here, it's both Stop harassing me retard
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Nov 4, 2014 04:03
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archangelwar posted:Income that you deduct is income that you do not pay taxes on. An overseas American filing taxes on foreign income, using the standard tax law, does not pay taxes on income until it exceeds ~95k, and can also deduct up to 30% living expenses. You are now having a semantic quibble over poo poo I didn't say (check my posts for the phrase "nontaxable income"). Unless you now want to claim that you pay taxes on a deduction... at this point it sounds like you will claim literally anything to avoid admitting you misspoke. Let's see what I said first. EasternBronze posted:Just FYI all Americans living overseas have to file a tax return like anyone living in the United States. Living outside the U.S. is not a tax dodge for American citizens and all earned income, even that which comes 100% from foreign sources is taxable. I file my taxes every year with the federal government pretty much exactly the same as if I still lived there. Nice anti-Chinese bigotry though. Now let's see what you responded with. archangelwar posted:This is only partially true. It is true you must file a tax return, it is not true that all of your foreign earnings are taxable, depending on how you file and any specific tax treaties we have with the country where you reside. If you are paying US taxes without taking any deductions then you are simply not doing it right... This is wrong, all of your income overseas is taxable and is defined as "taxable income" by the IRS. You can later take deductions that will likely reduce the tax you pay to zero but that is not the same as income "not being taxable" ie "untaxable income". I never misspoke, you simply aren't understanding the terms I'm using and than pretending you called me out on something. You can work at McDonalds, make 20K a year and than somehow take a bunch of deductions that reduce the taxes you pay down to zero but that doesn't mean that money earned from a McDonalds job is "nontaxable income". That's an easily definable term that you can find right on the IRS's website. Even in the case of the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion there are easily several scenarios where you can earn your year's income entirely outside of the country and not be able to take that deduction, such as not being outside the country long enough to meet the foreign residency requirement. Now tell me that overseas income isn't taxable. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 04:05
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on the left posted:Pointing out reasons something won't work is not arguing in bad faith. Goons pretty much handwave away the massive impracticality of paying out 30% of GDP in cash payments, so why not point out any of the other reasons? Because they are non-reasons. You are literally talking about something that is a) so small as to not even cause a noticeable difference whether or not the issue is addressed and b) and issue that is easily addressed. So at this point I have to question your motives, because your furtive insistence on this being an issue can only be explained by one of two things already mentioned.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:07
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Look we can't mail out millions of checks, that would bankrupt the country in envelope costs and postage fees. Pack it up everyone, shut down Social Security, shut down tax returns, and definitely don't ever try to do the census or hold an election.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:08
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on the left posted:Stop harassing me retard Maybe you could make better posts? Like post more than the same one line that's already been addressed thirty times in this thread. It's really not that hard.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:09
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VitalSigns posted:Look we can't mail out millions of checks, that would bankrupt the country. Pack it up everyone, shut down Social Security, shut down tax returns, and definitely don't ever try to do the census or hold an election. It would cost about 4-5 trillion dollars to mail out 20k to each resident in the US over 18. This is a large portion of GDP, and comes in before other government expenses that are needed. It would require a huge tax increase even if we simultaneously ended every other entitlement program (including medicare/medicaid) and shut down the military.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:10
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Deductions are income that you do not pay taxes on. I have specifically not used the words "nontaxable income" for a reason. If you want to claim that I am calling income under the deduction "nontaxable" because I said that it is not a taxable level of income, then be my guest. But you are just be pedantic because you understood fully what I meant, and you only wanted to argue semantics. Filing your taxes overseas is not exactly the same as if you live here because foreign income deductions are completely different. You lied. Edit: No matter what language I use, it does not make this quote:I file my taxes every year with the federal government pretty much exactly the same as if I still lived there. archangelwar fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 04:12
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on the left posted:It would cost about 4-5 trillion dollars to mail out 20k to each resident in the US over 18. This is a large portion of GDP, and comes in before other government expenses that are needed. It would require a huge tax increase even if we simultaneously ended every other entitlement program (including medicare/medicaid) and shut down the military. Oh, a large tax increase you say?  Man just look at these poo poo posts: on the left posted:Somehow I have a feeling that expanding welfare is a lot easier than getting the government to sign off on yearly checks to every citizen. The 14th amendment guarantees that any mincome would be quickly broken by birth tourism. on the left posted:Unrestricted immigration is a problem if each immigrant represents a guaranteed cash liability to the tune of a million dollars. on the left posted:I know couples who have done this, mainly to save on university costs in the future. It only costs about 15k to pay people to arrange all of the details for you, which includes birthing costs. They established state residency for their kid in the state they wanted their kid to go to school (California, lol). on the left posted:If expats are responsible for paying taxes, why shouldn't they also be able to receive mincome? on the left posted:We already have a social security processing center in Manila because many retired Americans live in South East Asia for....reasons. Why not leverage our existing infrastructure for providing services for Americans overseas? on the left posted:Hmmm, if a lot of different groups don't care about certain minorities getting mincome, it would seem like that would sabotage any plans to actually implement mincome. I guess it's all for the best because then we don't have to argue about whether its racist to exclude people without IDs or documentation from getting mincome. on the left posted:Minority isn't restricted to race. Many people use it to refer to groups that make up less than 50% of the population. on the left posted:Currently, the largest form of entitlement spending (social security) is open to expatriates. If you want to eliminate social security in favor of mincome, you have to allow it. on the left posted:American citizens overseas is a big issue if you want to replace the entitlement system, since the largest entitlement (social security) is collectible overseas. Additionally, the 14th amendment guarantees that the number of overseas citizens would jump drastically if we were writing checks to every citizen. Look, look at how stupid you are. Not only can you not post more than two sentences at a time, all the sentences you post are thinly veiled FYGM. Just 
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Nov 4, 2014 04:13
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on the left posted:It would cost about 4-5 trillion dollars to mail out 20k to each resident in the US over 18. This is a large portion of GDP, and comes in before other government expenses that are needed. It would require a huge tax increase even if we simultaneously ended every other entitlement program (including medicare/medicaid) and shut down the military. What is the total annual cost of current entitlement programs, and what is the current value of outstanding debt and derivatives of that debt for Americans?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:15
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archangelwar posted:Deductions are income that you do not pay taxes on. I have specifically not used the words "nontaxable income" for a reason. If you want to claim that I am calling income under the deduction "nontaxable" because I said that it is not a taxable level of income, then be my guest. But you are just be pedantic because you understood fully what I meant, and you only wanted to argue semantics. No, you specifically said the income was not taxable. What does it mean if income isn't taxable? Filing your taxes are not the same if you have three children and massive student loans just as they are not the same if you live on a military base just as they are not the same if you live in Indonesia. Every American citizen has tax obligations to varying degrees and the implication was that people who live oversees don't have to pay taxes. They do and next year they could decide to lower, raise or scrap entirely Foreign Earned Income Exclusion.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:What is the total annual cost of current entitlement programs, and what is the current amount of outstanding debt and derivatives of that debt for Americans? It literally doesn't matter because the cost isn't an issue. We have more than enough wealth to provide a mincome for every resident of the US. Anyone saying otherwise is arguing in bad faith. EasternBronze posted:No, you specifically said the income was not taxable. What does it mean if income isn't taxable? Can you just shut the gently caress up? The implication is that we don't need to worry about a mincome for overseas citizens because have 95k of income they don't have to pay taxes on (yes, this is what we call a "deduction" in the real world) in the first place. If they want their mincome, they can come home.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:16
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down with slavery posted:Look, look at how stupid you are. Not only can you not post more than two sentences at a time, all the sentences you post are thinly veiled ftfy 
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Nov 4, 2014 04:16
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down with slavery posted:Oh, a large tax increase you say? The simple answer to this is that even when we had those tax rates, we still would not collect enough money to mail checks worth 25% of GDP: 
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Nov 4, 2014 04:16
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down with slavery posted:It literally doesn't matter because the cost isn't an issue. We have more than enough wealth to provide a mincome for every resident of the US. Anyone saying otherwise is arguing in bad faith. Please stop trolling "on the left" with your username. It isn't fair!
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Nov 4, 2014 04:17
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on the left posted:It would cost about 4-5 trillion dollars to mail out 20k to each resident in the US over 18. This is a large portion of GDP, and comes in before other government expenses that are needed. It would require a huge tax increase even if we simultaneously ended every other entitlement program (including medicare/medicaid) and shut down the military. No it wouldn't, child. It's amazing you're so backwards you still think checks are needed.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:18
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on the left posted:The simple answer to this is that even when we had those tax rates, we still would not collect enough money to mail checks worth 25% of GDP: That's because we couldn't afford it then. We can now. Behold the power of growth. Now we just need to restore tax rates to a reasonable level and we'll be more than able to afford providing for the less fortunate in society.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:18
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archangelwar posted:
It is a true statement, I fill out almost the exact same forms verbatim and than I calculate and take the deductions I qualify for just like every other American citizen. quote:Can you just shut the gently caress up? The implication is that we don't need to worry about a mincome for overseas citizens because have 95k of income they don't have to pay taxes on (yes, this is what we call a "deduction" in the real world) in the first place. If they want their mincome, they can come home. How many days per year do I have to live in the United States to qualify? What if I study abroad for a summer or stay with my extended family in Mexico, do I lose my GMI than?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:18
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on the left posted:The simple answer to this is that even when we had those tax rates, we still would not collect enough money to mail checks worth 25% of GDP: If this is true, then apparently no matter how much money we bring in it's a fixed percentage of GDP, and we should hike taxes immediately for the GDP benefits alone.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:18
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EasternBronze posted:No, you specifically said the income was not taxable. What does it mean if income isn't taxable? You literally have to be well into the top decile of income earners to pay a cent of US tax on foreign income. The fact that you try to compare that to normal tax situations of average citizens belies your position.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:20
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VitalSigns posted:If this is true, then apparently no matter how much money we bring in it's a fixed percentage of GDP, and we should hike taxes immediately for the GDP benefits alone. No, it's possible to bring in more taxes as a percentage of GDP, but you need to start hiding taxes in a lot more things, and do stuff like tax imports more and add stiff VATs to goods and services.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:20
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on the left posted:No, it's possible to bring in more taxes as a percentage of GDP, but you need to start hiding taxes in a lot more things, and do stuff like tax imports more and add stiff VATs to goods and services. Or you know, just tax the ultrawealthy. You know, the guys with all the money. There's no need to bring about a regressive tax. What is so hard for you to grasp about the concept of wealth transfer?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:21
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I don't mind expats getting mincome, as they are also people. Can we move past this derail? I suggest discussing implementation of the idea instead of whether it should actually happen. I have no ideas for implementation as I think it's just a stopgap measure and I do not typically support reformist half measures, but I would certainly like to see others' ideas on how to implement the system so that people could afford healthcare, housing, food, clothes and a semi-comfortable existence without relying on "work or die" ideology.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:21
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EasternBronze posted:It is a true statement, I fill out almost the exact same forms verbatim and than I calculate and take the deductions I qualify for just like every other American citizen. The idea that your tax situation is the same just because you communicate with the IRS is a pretty hosed up definition of "the same." If so, I file taxes in the exact same way as Warren Buffett. You have now rendered any discussion moot. We are all made of atoms, therefore every person is exactly the same YOU CAN'T DEBATE THIS BECAUSE PHYSICS.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:22
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Arri posted:I don't mind expats getting mincome, as they are also people. Can we move past this derail? I suggest discussing implementation of the idea instead of whether it should actually happen. I have no ideas for implementation as I think it's just a stopgap measure and I do not typically support reformist half measures, but I would certainly like to see others' ideas on how to implement the system so that people could afford healthcare, housing, food, clothes and a semi-comfortable existence without relying on "work or die" ideology. There's no discussion to be had regarding implementation. Studies have been done, the data suggests it would be a great idea. Policies have been advised, things have been written up. As it is, mincome in the US is a pipedream as long as we're having "serious discussions" about raising the minimum wage to $10. Implementation of the idea? My suggestion would be to stop waiting for the Ds and Rs. The answer to "why mincome" is that it's better for literally everyone. Anyone with half a conscience should be able to tell you that we have more than enough wealth to provide for the least fortunate among us. Having discussions about the minutae takes away from the real discussion to be had, which is why so many people are such poo poo to their common man.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:23
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down with slavery posted:It literally doesn't matter because the cost isn't an issue. We have more than enough wealth to provide a mincome for every resident of the US. Look, we both know that to be true. Until you can show me the numbers, you won't get business to know it true and the issue is DOA.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:24
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archangelwar posted:You literally have to be well into the top decile of income earners to pay a cent of US tax on foreign income. The fact that you try to compare that to normal tax situations of average citizens belies your position. Don't you see how taxing someone who might actually make below poverty wages on the other side of the world is kind of regressive? I think the GMI is a great idea, I just don't see why some posters here have such a disdain for citizens who live overseas. I worked in America for years before I ever left the country, I've got at least as much right as any new resident does.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:Look, we both know that to be true. Until you can show me the numbers, you won't get business to know it true and the issue is DOA. lol? Business people are well aware of this chart:  The issue is that the business community, and people like shots shots shots, don't see economic/wealth inequality as a problem, but as a good thing. That's really a moral discussion more than anything, and on the left's absolute insistence on ignoring the data is right up there with climate change denialists. I mean look at this: he posted this on the left posted:The Manitoba Mincome was analyzed after the fact by looking at healthcare outcomes two studies/stories that call mincome a resounding success but what is his position? on the left posted:I'm not concern trolling, because concern trolling would imply that i'm in favor of mincome. So he calls everyone out on "not having data", posts data that supports everyones argument, then retreats back to his "position first, knowledge second" act. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 04:26
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archangelwar posted:The idea that your tax situation is the same just because you communicate with the IRS is a pretty hosed up definition of "the same." If so, I file taxes in the exact same way as Warren Buffett. You have now rendered any discussion moot. We are all made of atoms, therefore every person is exactly the same YOU CAN'T DEBATE THIS BECAUSE PHYSICS. The implication was that people who live overseas are exempt from taxes, that wasn't an accurate statement. Even the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion doesn't always apply, even if 100% of your income was earned overseas. Of course, you'd have to actually understand the topic to know that. Have you ever actually filed a tax return, overseas or otherwise?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:28
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EasternBronze posted:Don't you see how taxing someone who might actually make below poverty wages on the other side of the world is kind of regressive? Is $95k now some figure near the poverty line? Look, I am not a supporter of all US tax law, but I have no idea where you are driving this, and I am not terribly worried about the tax burden of expats with high earnings. quote:I think the GMI is a great idea, I just don't see why some posters here have such a disdain for citizens who live overseas. I worked in America for years before I ever left the country, I've got at least as much right as any new resident does. I don't, I am not even concerned if expats get the mincome. I just think it is an easily addressable issue if it becomes some sort of obstacle, and I am not over-concerned about people losing benefits if they reside primarily overseas. It just simply not a big enough issue to sink the discussion of mincome until you get to "write a very specific and detailed policy proposal with extreme minutia" phase.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:30
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EasternBronze posted:The implication was that people who live overseas are exempt from taxes, that wasn't an accurate statement. Can you stop being such a loving idiot? Nobody gives a gently caress about you playing pedant and its painfully clear that you weren't aware of just how much income was taxed on expats and have spent two pages trying to backtrack in order to make yourself look good.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:30
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down with slavery posted:lol? You are conflating wealth with income. A mincome would not be paid out of wealth, but rather income. The top 1% takes home about 20% of income in the nation.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:33
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on the left posted:You are conflating wealth with income. A mincome would not be paid out of wealth, but rather income. The top 1% takes home about 20% of income in the nation. We can tax wealth. We call it a "property tax". hth
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Nov 4, 2014 04:33
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down with slavery posted:Having discussions about the minutae takes away from the real discussion to be had, which is why so many people are such poo poo to their common man. Yes, I can definitely agree with this.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:34
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down with slavery posted:Can you stop being such a loving idiot? Nobody gives a gently caress about you playing pedant and its painfully clear that you weren't aware of just how much income was taxed on expats and have spent two pages trying to backtrack. I've taken that deduction every year since 2011. All of my income was still "taxable income" according to the IRS, I'm sorry you had to jump in with your total lack of knowledge on the topic. quote:Is $95k now some figure near the poverty line? Look, I am not a supporter of all US tax law, but I have no idea where you are driving this, and I am not terribly worried about the tax burden of expats with high earnings. Its not, the reason why these tax deductions exist is to prevent people not making extremely high incomes from facing an onerous tax burden overseas just because of their residency outside the United States. You can go make 15K a year in some other country and that might be totally livable, but not if you don't get those deductions for living outside the U.S. quote:I don't, I am not even concerned if expats get the mincome. I just think it is an easily addressable issue if it becomes some sort of obstacle, and I am not over-concerned about people losing benefits if they reside primarily overseas. It just simply not a big enough issue to sink the discussion of mincome until you get to "write a very specific and detailed policy proposal with extreme minutia" phase. Noone is sinking the discussion, its an issue that is relevant to a sizable portion of the posters here, so it got brought up. I guess your whole intent was just for everyone to sit down together and cheer "this is a great idea" again and again?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:36
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Arri posted:Yes, I can definitely agree with this. Because it is extremely profitable to them personally. What other answer were you expecting? Every man has his price; some are higher than others.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:37
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