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My Imaginary GF posted:A mosque with a weapons cache is defiled ground, and not a holy site. And a country with nothing but soldiers and guns is a valid military target. You're just blowing smoke and moving goalposts. My Imaginary GF posted:Who needs to occupy, if the situation deteriorates to the point where chemical weapon use is authorized? What chemical weapons are you talking about? The ones they're not supposed to have? Dilkington posted:I'm surprised this is controversial. Considering all the examples we have from history, I thought it was obvious that ethnic cleansing is relatively easy even for modestly organized groups. Israel has a large military and the advantage of short lines of supply. Anyone who has paid attention to Israel's military adventures since ~2000 knows they were holding back. There is no such thing as a "limited military response" to the IDF.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:51
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Palestinians themselves are a weapon just by existing. Even palestinian reproduction is a threat to Israel, as the phrase "demographic bomb" illustrates. Seen in this light, the West Bank and Gaza Strip are weapons caches that will will be inevitably used against Israel. In order to secure a future for the sole outpost of democracy in the Mideast and protector of Judaism worldwide, these threats have to extinguished. Sites that cater to these weaponized populations should also be treated as dangerous to rational, civilized people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 19, 2014 01:52
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Dilkington posted:I'm surprised this is controversial. Considering all the examples we have from history, I thought it was obvious that ethnic cleansing is relatively easy even for modestly organized groups. Israel has a large military and the advantage of short lines of supply. Israel is a first world state who is protected by United States, in the age of 24/7 news networks in one of the most followed regions in the world. They can't actually engage in genocide without a massive economic and military backlash that would destroy them as a functional state and have no reason for doing such a suicidal maneuver. Anyone who thinks that is something that would happen doesn't know anything about the conflict or the international realities involved. Engaging in some fantasy where Israel kills just because it wants to kill doesn't do good for anybody. Back on the topic: My Imaginary GF posted:Israel's leaders are willing to step up and say, "Attacks on holy sites are wrong, no if ands or buts." quote:Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas also issued a condemnation of "the attack on Jewish worshippers in their place of prayer and [of] the killing of civilians no matter who is doing it". Spain will also possibly recognize Palestine: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/spanish-mps-call-recognising-palestine-20141118211738704786.html DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 01:53
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DarkCrawler posted:Israel is a first world state who is protected by United States, in the age of 24/7 news networks in one of the most followed regions in the world. They can't actually engage in genocide without a massive economic and military backlash that would destroy them as a functional state and have no reason for doing such a suicidal maneuver. Anyone who thinks that is something that would happen doesn't know anything about the conflict or the international realities involved. Engaging in some fantasy where Israel kills just because it wants to kill doesn't do good for anybody. quote:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0
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Nov 19, 2014 01:55
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So I'm wondering, will these random, spontaneous actions start coalescing into an organized movement or stay dispersed? I mean it seems like an obvious outgrowth of intense dissatisfaction with Abbas, are there any chance to see another Hamas like organization spring up as a more radical large scale alternative to the PLO and Hamas that has become slightly tempered with authority?
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Nov 19, 2014 01:56
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:So I'm wondering, will these random, spontaneous actions start coalescing into an organized movement or stay dispersed? I mean it seems like an obvious outgrowth of intense dissatisfaction with Abbas, are there any chance to see another Hamas like organization spring up as a more radical large scale alternative to the PLO and Hamas that has become slightly tempered with authority? It will be a hybrid of the two: sporatic, spontaneous actions--with no pattern or predictability other than being carried out by Arabs against Israelis--will occur in Israel in conjunction with more organized attacks meant to provoke more spontaneous attacks.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 Oh my god that loving article: quote:“To see Jews wearing tefillin and wrapped in the tallit lying in pools of blood, I wondered if I was imagining scenes from the Holocaust,” My Imaginary GF posted:It will be a hybrid of the two: sporatic, spontaneous actions--with no pattern or predictability other than being carried out by Arabs against Israelis--will occur in Israel in conjunction with more organized attacks meant to provoke more spontaneous attacks. Nope, nothing to do with expanding settlements and the continuing embargo and NOW the ban on Muslims at Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem. Nope. Nothing to do with that.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 Nothing to do with what you asked for. Statements were made, if he doesn't hold to them in reality any more the Israel does, that's not my problem 
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Nov 19, 2014 01:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Nothing to do with what you asked for. Statements were made, if he doesn't hold to them in reality any more the Israel does, that's not my problem If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site, I cannot help you. They are talking about this, you moron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Omar_(Jerusalem) Which they are now restricted from going to. Its not just Jewish Holy sites, they are not the only ones that consider that place holy. And considering the legacy that the Israeli government has for letting Jewish settlers strip mosques and use them as clubs, I'd be kinda irked too.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:02
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e: nvm
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Nov 19, 2014 02:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you. You literally asked for a Palestinian leader condemning the attacks, and when you received an example you responded with something that is totally irrelevant. Are you saying that the BBC is lying and that Abbas did not actually issue that statement?
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Nov 19, 2014 02:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you. If you want to change topic to something else, I cannot help you either. If you want to discuss about the rhetoric used instead of what is actually happening, I'm sure there are people here willing to engage you in that. Edit: Street battles and unrest in both Jerusalem and West Bank: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/palestinians-suffer-israeli-settler-reprisals-20141118185543648426.html Apparently a mob is preventing them from demolishing the attacker 's homes. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 02:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you. My Imaginary GF posted:
I realize this would put me on the super fringe in Israel (since most Jews think it'd be profane to pray at the site), but as a not particularly religious Jew, I sort of feel like if someone wants to pray there, they should let them, regardless of their religion.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:06
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DarkCrawler posted:Edit: Street battles and unrest in both Jerusalem and West Bank: Out comes the super-armored Caterpillars
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Nov 19, 2014 02:09
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CommieGIR posted:Out comes the super-armored Caterpillars Hope no one gets run over. I'm totally against demolishing homes, it feels so childish, but this probably isn't the best case to make a stand on it.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:10
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Petty collective punishment in East Jerusalem: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/east-jerusalem-under-collective-punishment-2014111682924491709.html http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/20141105_draconian_steps_in_jerusalem
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Nov 19, 2014 02:11
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Xandu posted:Hope no one gets run over. I'm totally against demolishing homes, it feels so childish, but this probably isn't the best case to make a stand on it. Me too, but considering the demolishing homes has become a tradition, so has the demonstrations. DarkCrawler posted:Petty collective punishment in East Jerusalem: Libertarians would approve. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 02:13
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Xandu posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 I realize this would put me on the super fringe in Israel (since most Jews think it'd be profane to pray at the site), but as a not particularly religious Jew, I sort of feel like if someone wants to pray there, they should let them, regardless of their religion. [/quote] I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation. Its almost as if being an oppressive apartheid state has issues 
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Nov 19, 2014 02:17
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CommieGIR posted:Its almost as if being an oppressive apartheid state has issues If we stop oppressing them they might retaliate. Better keep oppressing them then. Most moral X in the world.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:24
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CommieGIR posted:Its almost as if being an oppressive apartheid state has issues Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.'
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Nov 19, 2014 02:25
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and you are lynching negroes if you're going for "Israel is slightly more moral than dictatorships", good job.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.' The dog whistle anti-sematism suggestion is really getting old. But they are an oppressive apartheid colonial power, not it has nothing to do with their religion, but they sure do love using their religion as a bat over everyone's heads whenever criticized. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 02:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation. Is not compatible with: My Imaginary GF posted:Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.' What you just called for in your post was an apartheid state, even if you fail to realize that.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.' This is an invalid line of defense because Israel claims to be a beacon of democracy and human rights in a sea of barbarism. Enlightened democracies have certain standards of behavior towards people who live in lands they claim sovereignty over, and Israel does not meet these standards. If we judge Israel by the same standards we apply to other states in the region, then Israel loses it's position of moral superiority that is so fundamental to their national ethos.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.' Many states in the region are apartheid states or religiously oppressive to the point that the same end result is true. Many don't have specific laws but the populace is so lovely that you don't want to live there regardless if you're different. Is this news to you? Israel is an apartheid state. The existence of other apartheid states or other forms of oppression does not invalidate that fact.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:34
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I don't see how anyone can unironically believe that forced segregation is legitimate means for stability and simultaneously believe Israel is also negotiating in good faith.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:38
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Apparently crowds are gathering in Jerusalem calling for war. It doesn't even take guns or a car to start a war any more, I guess you can do it with an axe and a knife. Soon enough Israel will be declaring little wars for slipping on a banana peel. *slide whistle noise*
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Nov 19, 2014 02:38
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Job Truniht posted:I don't see how anyone can unironically believe that forced segregation is legitimate means for stability and simultaneously believe Israel is also negotiating in good faith. Well, the American South did  SedanChair posted:Apparently crowds are gathering in Jerusalem calling for war. It doesn't even take guns or a car to start a war any more, I guess you can do it with an axe and a knife. Soon enough Israel will be declaring little wars for slipping on a banana peel. *slide whistle noise* Oh boy...I bet the neighbors are already setting up the couches to watch the bombing campaigns.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:40
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CommieGIR posted:Well, the American South did America in general really.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:42
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Ah the old "Israel isn't literally South Africa so it can't described as an apartheid state and therefore has never done anything wrong" line of reasoning.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:42
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Xandu posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 Related, let me just say this flat out so there's no word-twisting: Killing Regardless of how much the Palestinian anger is justified, going into a synagogue and knifing/shooting a bunch of people praying is completely horrible and unacceptable. I legit had to turn off Al-Jazeera when they were showing the inside of the synagogue and the blood-stained books.  SedanChair posted:Apparently crowds are gathering in Jerusalem calling for war. It doesn't even take guns or a car to start a war any more, I guess you can do it with an axe and a knife. Soon enough Israel will be declaring little wars for slipping on a banana peel. *slide whistle noise* 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 02:45
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This attack wasn't about settlements. East Jerusalem residents, spurred by nationalism, murdered West Jerusalem residents in cold blood. Not only does it serve no functional end, it's likely that a lot of Palestinians will die in retaliation, and the homes of the alleged murderers will be demolished. Defending/apologizing for this is ghastly, and it's hypocritical too for the subset of those people who rightly complain when Israel is in the wrong.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:16
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Ah the old "Israel isn't literally South Africa so it can't described as an apartheid state and therefore has never done anything wrong" line of reasoning. Israel does plenty of wrong. Nation-states exist to deprive individuals of absolute liberty, for absolute liberty is anarchy. The question is, why is Israel held to a higher standard in its wrongs than other states in the world, much less the region? E: Kim Jong Il posted:This attack wasn't about settlements. East Jerusalem residents, spurred by nationalism, murdered West Jerusalem residents in cold blood. Not only does it serve no functional end, it's likely that a lot of Palestinians will die in retaliation, and the homes of the alleged murderers will be demolished. Defending/apologizing for this is ghastly, and it's hypocritical too for the subset of those people who rightly complain when Israel is in the wrong. The appropriate response.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel does plenty of wrong. Nation-states exist to deprive individuals of absolute liberty, for absolute liberty is anarchy. The question is, why is Israel held to a higher standard in its wrongs than other states in the world, much less the region? what
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Nov 19, 2014 03:19
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel does plenty of wrong. Nation-states exist to deprive individuals of absolute liberty, for absolute liberty is anarchy. The question is, why is Israel held to a higher standard in its wrongs than other states in the world, much less the region? That is very bad reasoning. quote:I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation. You already sold yourself down the river. Kim Jong Il posted:This attack wasn't about settlements. East Jerusalem residents, spurred by nationalism, murdered West Jerusalem residents in cold blood. Not only does it serve no functional end, it's likely that a lot of Palestinians will die in retaliation, and the homes of the alleged murderers will be demolished. Defending/apologizing for this is ghastly, and it's hypocritical too for the subset of those people who rightly complain when Israel is in the wrong. Yes, the attacks were wrong. Yes, they were ghastly. The head of the Palestinian government has already denounced the attacks. But, yes, I feel like the Israel's oppressive actions play some part in it. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 03:19
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel does plenty of wrong. Nation-states exist to deprive individuals of absolute liberty, for absolute liberty is anarchy. The question is, why is Israel held to a higher standard in its wrongs than other states in the world, much less the region? Because we give them a gently caress ton of aid
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Nov 19, 2014 03:21
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and really, why should we hold the self-proclaimed only democracy in the middle east, the defender of the principles of tolerance and liberty, to a higher standard than, say, bahrain
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Nov 19, 2014 03:21
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CommieGIR posted:That is very bad reasoning. Are you saying that if Israeli authorities allowed everyone in Israel free access to the temple mount, it wouldn't result in a lot of blood spilled?
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Nov 19, 2014 03:21
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