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Jerusalem posted:
Yeah, Time Works is a good listen. I definitely agree with the stories kinda not mattering at points, but I like where they went with them for the most part. Also I've said it before, but try not to get too excited about C'rizz developing.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:16
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Firstly, I want to say a big THANK YOU to Doctor What for my Secret Santa gift(s)! I'll do a proper post with pics a little later, but I've been so busy lately and dealing with internet outages so I have just gotten the chance to catch up on the thread. And to my santee, do not despair! You've something on the way, It's gonna be a close call to get there in time for Xmas, but if not you'll see it a day or two later. So if you haven't gotten anything yet, you quite possibly are my santee. So now if there are multiple people waiting, I've potentially given all but one false hope! Merry Christmas!
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Dec 21, 2014 23:19
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McGann posted:Firstly, I want to say a big THANK YOU to Doctor What for my Secret Santa gift(s)! I'll do a proper post with pics a little later, but I've been so busy lately and dealing with internet outages so I have just gotten the chance to catch up on the thread. So glad you got them without any hassle!
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Dec 21, 2014 23:23
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CobiWann posted:The kiddo wants to know if, like dinosaurs, there are any episodes of the show involving a fight against goats. I am not making this up. Do the Daemons count? Daemons are basically goat people, right?
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Dec 22, 2014 01:22
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Ahem, goats are daemon-people 
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Dec 22, 2014 01:23
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Jerusalem posted:Ahem, goats are daemon-people If Draenei are goat enough for her, then so are the daemons. Bring me the head of Roger Degaldo!
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Dec 22, 2014 02:49
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A day in which I can ensure that somebody watches The Daemons is a good day 
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Dec 22, 2014 05:05
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DoctorWhat posted:So glad you got them without any hassle!  Hey-Ho, McGann! Remember to lock all the doors - that's what the sonic's for! - DoctorWhat War Doctor Sonic + a CLASSIC, what more could a guy ask for? Seriously, though - I love having a copy of one of Six's best TV appearances so I can force it upon people ANYWHERE, not just places with streaming access! And I actually had bought that same sonic when it first came out, but I broke mine a few months ago (all my sonics break eventually, I flip them absent-mindedly at my desk and they aren't exactly sturdy). It was my favorite sonic and I was so excited to get it replaced via a surprise present. Thanks again, DoctorWhat. Really, great choices (especially considering my lame "hint" I gave, which seemed like it made things easier for the Santa but in retrospect was kinda pointless and not helpful at all!). The moment I saw the DVD I knew it was from you, before I even saw the note.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:58
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I just realised I didn't put a note or any identifier in my package about who it's from. 
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Dec 22, 2014 09:15
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Jerusalem posted:A day in which I can ensure that somebody watches The Daemons is a good day We have to finish Warriors of the Deep first and then watch the Seven/Ace Dalek serial so she can understand why her Mom and I flipped out at hearing Sophie Aldred will be at RegenerationCon.
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Dec 22, 2014 11:31
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Meanwhile, the most Doctor Who Wiki statement to exist outside of the sex articles: I hear that they prefer climbing to any day. And they hate walking!
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Dec 22, 2014 11:51
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 Listen is technically sound in every way. There isn't a single bad scene. It's dripping with atmosphere, features some great characterization, furthers a season-long subplot, and has a well-executed "twist" to the initial premise of the episode. So you'd think it was one of my favorite episodes of the season as opposed to what it is - which is an episode I found ultimately unsatisfying and lacking in cohesion. That "twist" is also massively distracting, tending to overshadow everything else that works so well in the rather dark atmosphere and often surreal moments, mostly because it's something that didn't need to happen, and by it's very nature had to be largely vague - which in turn raised the question of why they did it if they knew they had to so strictly limit themselves. In terms of furthering the bond between the Doctor and Clara is a very good episode, however, especially since the honeymoon period is ending now and Clara is soon going to start struggling to justify the Doctor's attitude and behavior towards her, other people, and his sense of what is right and wrong. The premise of the episode is a red herring, the trailer and roughly 85% of the episode itself is designed to make it appear like the traditional "spooky" episode - perhaps a part of Moffat's upholding of that fine Robert Holmes tradition of terrifying the poo poo out of small children. It's only at the end that we realize we've been looking at things all wrong just like the Doctor himself has been, something that is explicitly laid out by Clara in an address to the Doctor that might as well be to the audience themselves. Similarly, the episode opens with the Doctor seemingly talking directly to the audience, discussing and explaining things he is thinking. This kind of exposition usually feels artificial and is one of the reasons that the character typically has a companion, but it works in that the artificiality is noted by the Doctor himself, it's the very question he asks - WHY do people talk to themselves when they know they're alone? His conjecture: they know they're NOT alone. He ponders the way evolution perfects survival skills (no it doesn't) and wonders why there is no such thing as "perfect hiders" (there are, hell Clara herself calls the Doctor a stick insect at one point!). When he seemingly finds the answer to a question he asked out loud written by an unknown being on his blackboard, he becomes convinced - or rather, obsessed - with the notion that there is some kind of race of perfect hiders who have been watching the peoples of various races, unseen and unknown by those races who are somehow still subconsciously aware of them. That's a rather horrifying thought, though not quite as horrifying as the disastrous dinner date that Clara and Danny Pink are on. While some were less impressed by the chemistry between the two actors throughout the season, I thought that these initial flirting/dating scenes between the two were charming as hell and a lot of fun. Clara and Danny gently caress up constantly as they nervously blurt out inappropriate sounding things, struggle to make conversation till they fall back on their shared experience with a difficult student, and end up insulting each other with neither willing to back down even when they know they're being ridiculous. Even when Clara ends up taking advantage of her rather unique resources to jump back to the aborted date and attempt to make things right, she just ends up screwing things up worse, only to get a seeming message from the future that proves that things are going to work out okay in the end (though as we knew even before the season ended, the future is always being rewritten) - which does create a kind of worrying chicken-or-the-egg nature to their relationship, which you'd think control-freak Clara would be at least troubled by, but she seems more concerned that she might have screwed up her potential future with Danny, a man who remember she's only just met recently.   The Doctor, too concerned with his current obsession to notice or particularly care about her problems, drags Clara along with him to test out his hypothesis. His research has identified a common dream which Clara herself has had, though he is quick to avoid answering her own question on if HE has had the same dream - the first sign that there is something deeper/more personal going on beneath the surface of this episode. Shutting down all the security measures on the TARDIS (which NEVER backfires, nosir!) and hooking Clara into the telepathic controls he tries to get the TARDIS to take them down her timestream to the first night she had the dream - of waking up in the dark knowing there was someTHING else present, of getting out of bed and being grabbed by the foot by whatever that thing is. When Danny attempts to call Clara in the middle of this, the distraction causes her to bring them instead into Danny's childhood, where the Doctor continues to be too focused on his obsession that he misses the obvious - another parallel to the eventual reveal. While Clara befriends young Danny (and learns his actual name is Rupert), the Doctor obliviously freaks out the boy's home social worker (caretaker/night watchman?) by planting the idea in his head that there is something more to the mysterious sounds and electrical faults the old building suffers and then casually stealing his coffee after telling him that missing coffee is a sign of something spooky going on. It's that kind of oblivious indifference to others that seems somewhat charming/amusing at first but is slowly building to creating the impression that the Doctor is a callous and unpleasant person. It's contrasted strongly with Clara's attempts to help calm Rupert's fears after suffering the very dream that the Doctor has been hunting, as she attempts to reason with him and show him there is nothing to his dreams and nothing to be scared of. The scene that follows is both one of the strongest and weakest of the episode, mostly because of a single moment that clashes with the twist of the ultimate reveal. As Clara attempts to convince Rupert that there is no monster in the room, a mysterious thing makes its presence known - a vague shape underneath a blanket atop the bed. As the tension rises the Doctor appears and immediately undercuts it with humor, showing he isn't as callous as he has sometimes appeared over the last 3 episodes as he gives Rupert an inspirational speech that plays up the quality and strength and desirability of being afraid - because it makes your senses keener, makes you run faster, fight harder, push yourself beyond your limits. There has been a real sense during the revival of the Doctor as wizard ("Space Gandalf" is how the 11th Doctor wistfully put it), and it comes across strongly in this scene (and moreso in the excellent Flatline) as he addresses the thing under the covers and essentially commands its departure. It's the Doctor speaking from a position of utter powerlessness and yet somehow enforcing his authority regardless. It's a great and spooky scene with just one problem - the decision to show just the briefest frame of whatever it was under the covers was just a step too far, calling into question the twist at the end. The Doctor freely admits to Clara that for all he knows, they just saved a kid from another kid in a bedspread, and really whether it was or wasn't a creature shouldn't matter... except they just HAD to throw in that brief frame of that weird looking thing. Maybe it was a kid in a fright mask, maybe it was a strange "Perfect Hider", maybe it was an animated plastic goblin from the 1970s, but since only we the viewer got to see it, it puts too much emphasis on one possibility, one that is at odds with the ultimate reveal of the episode.   Clara helps to calm Rupert while the Doctor, creature vanquished, is now bored and eager to get back to the adventure. Back to his brusque best, he unceremoniously uses a psychic trick ("Dad skills" he says, a casual reminder once again that he had his own family once upon a time) to put Rupert to sleep, which also may play a large part in why Rupert grows up to be Dan the Soldier Man. Curious about why they ended up in this boy's home instead of Clara's childhood and missing the obvious details right in front of him - another theme of the season - he agrees to drop Clara off back at her aborted date with Danny while he pursues his white whale with the remaining psychic residue she left in the TARDIS' telepathic controls. That leads to the rather surreal moment where a spaceman wanders into the restaurant and beckons to Clara, and she discovers that the Doctor has tracked down Orson Pink - early pioneer time traveler from 100 years or so in her future - and saved him from the end of time, where his failed time travel experiment took him. Using the old standby of the same actor to play a descendent of a current character, Orson is quite clearly related to Danny Pink in some way, with the extremely strong suggestion that Clara is his great-grandmother. The Doctor returns them to the end of time (there is A star, so presumably this still predates Utopia) and lies about needing to recharge the TARDIS batteries, because he now has a new ploy to discover the perfect hiders. If there is no life left in the universe and time itself is coming to an end, then surely the perfect hiders will finally come out into the light, and he wants to see them when they do - he needs to know the unknown. It drives him, he is obsessed, though not for the reasons he thinks he is. That obsession comes out rather savagely when he orders Clara to return to the TARDIS, taking on an authoritative and commanding tone with her that he never uses, she has always been the one person whose feelings the 12th Doctor offers some small measure of thought and care towards - but not here, and it is a real eye-opener for her. Sitting at the end of time in a crashed time-traveling ship, the Doctor waits as odd sounds and creaks and tappings that COULD be explained away sound and he unlocks the door to the outside. Orson Pink has lived in terror of those sounds since he arrived there, Clara who so bravely insisted to little Rupert that there was nothing to fear is now afraid, and the Doctor? The Doctor is ecstatic, because he is finally going to see them and know them - the unknown thing will be revealed at last. So when the doors open, the way the Doctor's face lights up and then falls could be read in any number of ways - was he disappointed by what he saw? Terrified? Surprised? We don't know because whatever he did or didn't see, we (and Clara and Orson) are not privy to it - the monitor in the TARDIS shorts out, the internal atmosphere of the ship is sucked out, the Doctor is in peril and the perfect hiders remain unseen. It's up to Orson to haul the Doctor back in, unconscious and bleeding from a blow that could have come from a living being or an inanimate object. It's up to Clara to get them out of there as the doors of the TARDIS itself seem in danger of being pulled open, once again using the telepathic controls to try and get them to safety, distracted by a moan from the Doctor that causes the most contentious segment of the episode to happen, as the thing under the bed is finally revealed.  The reveal is technically handled really well, I thought, even if I think it was huge mistake of Moffat to go where he went in the story. Clara finds herself in a strangely familiar barn late at night, where a small boy is crying in a bed and covered up in blankets. She hides when she hears people coming, and to her shock picks up very quickly from the context of the conversation just where she is. She has traveled back in time to the Doctor's childhood, she is under his bed, and the young boy who will grow up to be the Doctor is crying in it. Why? That isn't said, and nor do we learn who the two adults talking to him are - Aunt/Uncle? Mother/Father? Orphanage workers? Foster family? Camp Counselors? School teachers? All we know is that the man is irritated that this young boy always cries because that isn't what a soldier does, and it's clear that the boy must become a soldier because he certainly doesn't have what it takes to be a Time Lord. Other than being a nice confirmation of the fact that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, this scene really rubs me the wrong way simply because by its very nature the details of everything happen MUST remain fuzzy and ill-defined, which in turn makes me question why they bothered to include it at all. It can't and won't serve as an origin for the Doctor (since we already have that, it's called An Unearthly Child and tells us everything we need to know about how that grumpy old nameless man became the character we know and love called the Doctor), it can't reveal details about his family or history since that would only serve to irritate, disappoint or even alienate more fans than would enjoy it. All it can do - and I admit it does it well - is to reveal the truth behind not only the Doctor's current obsession with these perfect hiders, but why even though he freely admits to being a "coward" and talks up the benefits of fear, he hasn't wanted to admit to himself that his drive to know and understand and quantify things stems back to a childish but very "human" fear of the dark. Why does everybody dream about a monster under the bed or talk to themselves when they're alone? It's not because of some perfect hiding monsters, it's because people are scared to be alone in the dark surrounded by the unknown. That's what terrified Orson, that's what makes the old, the lonely and the very young most susceptible - that fear that something is out there you don't and can't understand, and you're powerless to do anything about it. Clara instinctively grabs the boy's foot when he steps out of the bed to investigate the sound of his own older self calling, and she convinces him in his fright to hop back into bed and convince himself he was just dreaming all of this. Understanding his fright because it, after all, so very "human", she takes the time to try and comfort him with kind words just like she did for Rupert. Seeing Clara in a mothering role like she has been in this episode kind of comes out of nowhere character-wise, but Jenna Coleman sells it very well and especially in this scene, as she paraphrases the Doctor's own words to Rupert back to him as a boy. There is also a very brief reveal that this barn is the same one from The Day of the Doctor, where the War Doctor brought The Moment as he planned to bring the Time War to a bloody and final end, and she references the Doctors explanation of what "the promise of his chosen name" meant - to never be cruel or cowardly.... even if he is scared. All this is revealed in flashback after the Doctor takes her and Orson away in the TARDIS, having not seen where they were himself after having his own authoritative command of Clara reversed on him by here after she left the barn. Promising never to look where they've been, accepting her claim that his perfect hiders conjecture was just a cover to avoid admitting his own fear of the dark, he leaves and never knows that he was for the briefest of moments back on Gallifrey, his lost home planet - even if it was back in his own personal timeline which is a huge no-no. Left behind is the action figure of "Dan the Soldier Man", a representation of the person who stands against the dark and unknown and faces them bravely no matter how scared or powerless they might be. That's a strength and weakness of this segment and the greater episode - it's all mostly a closed loop of self-reference like the figure or Danny and Clara's relationship or the Doctor inadvertently kicking off his own obsession with finding the perfect hiders. When you make an episode that makes such a point of going to something as huge as the Doctor's own childhood, it's a little much that this is all in reference to a completely self-contained story - such a big thing in Doctor Who merely existing to service a story that chose to include it is a very fine line to cross, and while Moffat handles it well (far better than Joseph Lidster in the abominable Master, that's for sure) I really wish he'd just left well enough alone and focused on telling the same kind of story without getting into references a period of the Doctor's life that has gone mostly completely unexplored for very good reason for the last 50 years. In the end, between the flashbacks to being in the barn with the boy, Clara goes back to Danny and smooth over the bumps from their disastrous date - she's been through too much to let petty arguments ruin what it seems is destined to be the most important relationship of her life - and the Doctor is left alone again. He smiles as he looks at the mysterious message from earlier, the one that Clara told him looked like his own handwriting. Did he write it without realizing it while pondering out loud to himself? That would hardly be out of character for this Doctor, though it is a fairly contrived setup, as are many of the other circumstances that occur throughout the episode. Moffat essentially used the trappings of his own well-known "spooky" stories to produce something that technically features no aliens/monsters/threats/menaces - an intimate little story about the Doctor's own insecurities and fears. That's laudable even if it is a bit of a tease, and it's nice to see him challenge himself in this way rather than sticking with the tried-and-true formula of writing what he knows has worked in the past, something he's often been accused of over season 6 & 7. Listen ultimately leaves me unsatisfied. I really, really like many of the individual scenes and think the actual whole story is a very worthwhile one... but even so the whole thing just doesn't quite work for me. I think maybe it's too tied up with trying to fool the audience before bringing out the reveal, and while that reveal is executed well I can't help but feel like it renders the rest of the episode fairly irrelevant. It does manage to fit in a LOT to the story, but there is an element of trying to have their cake and eat it too - the thing under the bedspread scene is the worst offender, it offers up the audience's imagination to create the worst monster possible and then tries to pull out the rug in the end by suggesting it could have just been another kid... but then why oh why did they show that brief frame of a strange looking creature? The return to Gallifrey and the presence of the Doctor as a boy is pretty drat audacious and while it leads to a very sweet scene with Clara, it also runs the risk of tying her character in to the Doctor's own origin in a way even Name of the Doctor didn't do - as others have noted, she doesn't need to be the most important person in his history to still be the most important person in his current life - the show keeps trying to make her (and every "current" companion) somehow vitally important/linked in to the Doctor personally instead of just letting them be traveling companions who rise to the occasion while helping to ground him and provide a moral human compass. Still, it IS a good episode, and I think what's most important from a character point of view is that, in those brief shots we see of him over Clara's monologue to the boy in the barn, the Doctor is alone in his TARDIS again... but he's no longer talking out loud. Because thanks to Clara he's no longer afraid. 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 14:41
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To me, Listen was one of the more personally memorable episodes of the season because of its overall atmosphere. The episode jumped around a lot but managed to maintain a tension throughout, broken up with moments of humor like the Doctor suddenly commenting on a children’s book while there’s a monster under the blanket. He has no idea what’s going on, but the Doctor has to maintain the illusion of control as well. It’s something that comes to play in every episode as the Doctor barges into a scene and takes charge, but somehow this episode made it look like the Doctor was pretending to be in control, as opposed to actually being in control. The episode still stumbles, though, by actually attempting to define the unknown and pushes it from “memorable” into “oh, THAT episode” territory. The split-second view of the “monster under the blanket” threw the whole “is it or isn’t it” angle out the window. An off-screen sound effect would have worked MUCH better and tied into the episode’s title. And while I enjoy little snippets and off-hand comments about the Doctor’s past, attempting to define a pre An Unearthly Child moment in a concrete manner just doesn’t fit the concept of the Doctor at all. The scene in the barn was nicely shot and handled (I admit, I smiled at the War Doctor in the barn flashback), but ultimately unnecessary, a call back to the “Impossible Girl” that defined Clara’s time with Eleven and nothing more. It wasn’t a moment for the Doctor, it was a moment for the companion that felt a bit like Moffat going “ see how important Clara is,” not “see how important a companion is!”
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Dec 22, 2014 15:08
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It's frustrating because I feel like it's so close to being a great episode, but it just doesn't quite get there, and that's perhaps the most disappointing thing about it - that it is "only" very good when it is obvious it could have been more. I like most every part of it, but nothing really leaps out or stands head and shoulders above everything else, and yet somehow as a whole it isn't quite as good as the individual elements that make it up. Given that it's Moffat it's even weirder, because in a lot of ways this feels more like somebody writing for the show for the first time - a good effort but they need a little more experience to really get to grips with how best to put a script together.
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Dec 22, 2014 15:19
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I raised an eyebrow at the "blanket" bit at first, but in retrospect I think it was ultimately to the episode's strength. That split-second shot of the Hider isn't completely definitive (it could just be a kid with serious bed head), and re-calibrates the audience's expectations. The question of whether or not the Hider actually exists runs through the whole episode, and without that shot, I think it would've been much easier to just go fully into the "doesn't exist" side. You need to keep that needle wobbling in the center, which is pretty darned difficult and I've at least got to give Moffat credit for trying something so ambitious. This is the one that really locked in Twelve's persona, for me. He's effectively been "reborn" even by Time Lord standards thanks to his new pack of regenerations, and now we see him applying 2000+ years of genius and survival instinct to, essentially, riddling out the monster under his bed. If anyone was going to get back in touch with his childhood it was Twelve, even if he looks like beef jerkey covered in gray mold.
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Dec 22, 2014 15:28
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Oxxidation posted:This is the one that really locked in Twelve's persona, for me. He's effectively been "reborn" even by Time Lord standards thanks to his new pack of regenerations, and now we see him applying 2000+ years of genius and survival instinct to, essentially, riddling out the monster under his bed. If anyone was going to get back in touch with his childhood it was Twelve, even if he looks like beef jerkey covered in gray mold. I don’t know how far along in viewing you are, Oxx, so I can’t go into specifics, but you definitely hit the nail on the head with this. Listen was the episode that established the Twelfth Doctor firmly in my mind as a Time Lord without filters. He’s not a jerk or a dickhead, he just doesn’t have those social filters that everyone else has, and you can see it as he applies 2000+ years to not only surviving himself, but telling a little kid (and in a way, himself) “yeah, you’re scared. I’m not going to tell you it’s all going to work out or that you’re imagining things, I’m going to just lay out the benefits of being scared and why sometimes being scared IS a good thing.” Edit - and I can't get to it because I'm at work, but the Radio Times poster for this episode was absolutely incredible. CobiWann fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 15:38
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I think they'd done a good job of establishing every time that there was possibly a mundane explanation for every weird little thing, but acknowledging that there was an equal chance it was something more sinister. I think the split-second, unfocused shot of the weird head moved that needle a bit too far to one side though, and did it specifically for the audience since the characters themselves aren't in a position to see it. It still feels a little clumsy to me, deliberately steering the audience further onto the side of,"Well clearly there IS a monster" just so the reveal will catch them more by surprise, but leaving them (or rather, me I should say) thinking back to that shot and saying,"Well then what the hell was that thing?" once we know that this whole story stemmed from the Doctor's childhood fear of the dark and that there was no monster. I do still get a kick out of the idea of a VERY confused kid in the room next door perplexed by what the hell was going on in Rupert's room after he snuck in there to give Rupert a fright for a laugh and found a pretty lady and a furious old man in there too, both of whom took it at face value that there was a monster under the bedspread.
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Dec 22, 2014 15:38
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CobiWann posted:I don’t know how far along in viewing you are, Oxx, so I can’t go into specifics I finished the series. It owned, except for Kill the Moon and Forest of the Night, which may collectively beat out the Daleks in Manhattan two-parter and possibly even Journey's End as the worst episodes I've ever seen. Sheesh, they were bad.
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Dec 22, 2014 15:46
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Oxxidation posted:I finished the series. It owned, except for Kill the Moon and Forest of the Night, which may collectively beat out the Daleks in Manhattan two-parter and possibly even Journey's End as the worst episodes I've ever seen. Sheesh, they were bad. Alright, then what I was going to say (along with completely agreeing about Kill the Moon and In the Forest of the Night) is the Twelfth Doctor doesn’t have the Time War baggage/guilt to carry around anymore after the events of Name/Night/Day/Time of the Doctor. Regenerations “fix” the flaws of the previous incarnation, so since Eleven was perhaps the most human of the Doctors (though Five would give him a run for his money), Twelve’s done away with the social niceties which explains why he’s incredibly blunt. Oh, and and as the thread's resident audio pusher, should you ever find yourself curious about the Big Finish audios, let me know and I’ll drop four or five of the better ones on a flash drive and send it your way. I mention this because two stories, Dalek and Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel were inspired by two audios, Jubilee with Six and Spare Parts with Five. This is the only time I’ll bring this up. CobiWann fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 16:03
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Season 8 is definitely going to be better on a rewatch because all the "He's my boyfriend!" crap comes off much better when it's the Master being a creepy weirdo. Also a lot of the Doctor's cruelty is addressed in the second part, so some of that discomfort will at least be easier to handle. Not that it was bad the first time through, it's just the first time that I think a season of Doctor Who had an actual arc. I hope Capaldi gentles up just a tad now that he's sort of come into his own. Not a whole lot, though; he already did most of it in the second half of the season.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:22
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Bicyclops posted:Season 8 is definitely going to be better on a rewatch because all the "He's my boyfriend!" crap comes off much better when it's the Master being a creepy weirdo. You people are ridiculous for getting so outraged over that the first time around, Master or no Master.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:26
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Oxxidation posted:You people are ridiculous for getting so outraged over that the first time around, Master or no Master. No we aren't. 
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Dec 22, 2014 16:28
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Slightly ridiculous. But don't look at me, I was hoping she was the Rani. When she said "I couldn't very well keep calling myself, 'the Master,' now could I," my first thought? "If there was ANYONE who would regenerated into a woman just to gently caress with the Doctor, it's the Master." Michelle Gomez just CRUSHES it in the two-part finale to the point where I devoured any and all clips from other shows I could find. To be fair, if I DID have any reservations about a female Master deep down inside, they got swept aside by just how drat GOOD Gomez was. I never once found myself thinking "stunt casting" or "what a tweest!"
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Dec 22, 2014 16:34
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I was just worried that she was River. missy4lyfe
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Dec 22, 2014 16:36
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There's something about the way she sort of always is half rolling her eyes that channels Ainley and Delgado, but with a manic pace that's better suited to the new show and channels Simm. I hope they keep her around for awhile and she comes back every now and then.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:37
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I've just finished watching Green Wing again and I think Michelle Gomez might actually be The Master.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:44
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Bicyclops posted:There's something about the way she sort of always is half rolling her eyes that channels Ainley and Delgado, but with a manic pace that's better suited to the new show and channels Simm. I hope they keep her around for awhile and she comes back every now and then. I really hope she becomes 12's Ainley. Dying at the end of every episode and explaining how she's alive in the next with a shrug and an eye-roll.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:51
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I really hope she becomes 12's Ainley. Dying at the end of every episode and explaining how she's alive in the next with a shrug and an eye-roll.  "But... I saw you vapourised!" "Do try to keep up..."
The_Doctor fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:07
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docbeard posted:I've just finished watching Green Wing again and I think Michelle Gomez might actually be The Master. Michelle Gomez = Zilch Glee Memo 
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Dec 22, 2014 17:14
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"This time I have the real location for Gallifrey! I'll whisper it to you just before I die, for real this time."  *the Doctor's TARDIS materializes in Adam Mitchell's apartment* "MAAAAAAASTERRRRRRR!!" 
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Dec 22, 2014 17:17
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I'm still hoping that Missy is a direct regeneration of the MacQueen Master and she had no idea what The Doctor was talking about. She does basically just parrot his words back to him, its not a far leap for her to pretend she knew more. After all, The Master would get dizzy trying to walk a straight line. Though, did she mention being Prime Minister at all?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:31
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I don't know if I can post images, but my Santa was nice enough to combine my two favorite things, books and sweets! I've never had Berger cookies, and it's been ages since I read a CYOA book specially the Fourth Doctor adventure Doctor Who and the Vortex Crystal, but now I have something to occupy myself for Christmas Eve 
Solaris Knight fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 20:17
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 Within a small mining colony on the dark and distant planet of Lethe, events are occurring the results of which could dramatically affect things on a universal scale. For within the dingy corridors of the artificial biosphere, the lone survivor of a devastating crash has expertly wormed his way into the lives of the colony's personnel. A scientist known as Davros. Separated from one another across space and time, the Doctor and Mel find themselves in very different predicaments: Mel has been employed on Lethe, while the Doctor has been imprisoned aboard an alien spacecraft. Both situations are inexorably linked, however, and at the apex of the two sits Davros and the terrifying possibility of a new threat even more powerful than the Daleks! Rescuing Mel and stopping Davros should be the Doctor's primary goals, but could it be that this time, Mel does not wish to be rescued? And might Davros actually be working on something for the benefit of the civilised galaxies? Colin Baker is the Doctor in The Juggernauts. X X X X X Cast Colin Baker (The Doctor) Bonnie Langford (Melanie Bush) Terry Molloy (Davros) Bindya Solanki (Sonali) Klaus White (Geoff) Peter Forbe (Kryson) Paul Grunert(Brauer) Julia Houghton (Loewen) Nicholas Briggs (Dalek/ Mechonoid Voices) Written By: Scott Alan Woodard Directed By: Gary Russell Trailer - http://www.bigfinish.com/releases/popout/the-juggernauts-231 X X X X X Throughout the history of Big Finish’s production of Doctor Who, there have been plenty of stories that looked great or intriguing on paper. The Axis of Insanity centered the idea of a space station containing and isolating fractured timelines, only to do very little with the actual concept, instead giving us an annoyingly over-the-top villain. …and the Pirates looked to be something unique, advertised as a full-fledged musical. Only one episode contains signing. Instead, the story gave listeners a look at coping with enormous personal tragedy. Master was 3/4th’s a solid discussion between friend and foe about the very nature of evil and tabula rasa, only to fall completely flat on its face in the fourth act. Minuet in Hell was the grand and glorious meeting of the Eighth Doctor and the Brigadier…in what could drat well be the Plan 9 From Outer Space of Big Finish audios. The Juggernauts is another story that attracts a listener’s attention. The Sixth Doctor! Davros! Mel, tricked by Davros to work with him! Daleks! Mechanoids! A grand battle between two robotic menaces! What sounds like the various pieces of an amazing story fail to come together properly, with three solid performances surrounded by a thin veil of supporting characters and wrapped up inside a plot that treads familiar ground. There’s no time to argue, as the Sixth Doctor convinces Mel to leave a burning alien ship via escape pod. Before he could escape in his TARDIS, however, the Doctor is captured by none other than his hated foes, the Daleks! With the opportunity to exterminate him at their plunger tips, the Daleks instead request the Doctor’s assistance. It seems their creator, Davros, has once again escaped certain death. With the assistance of a far-flung human colony, Davros is creating a new race of mechanical beings whose sole function are to be the ultimate Dalek killers…and more importantly to the Doctor, working alongside Davors to create these so-called Juggernauts is none other than one Melanie Bush! The story may call them “Juggernauts,” but the spheroid robots in question are actually known to fans of Doctor Who as the Mechanoids. The Mechanoids appeared only once on television, way back during the time of the First Doctor in the 1965 serial The Chase. Their purpose was to prepare a colony site on a distant jungle planet for a group of human settlers who never arrived. During the events of The Chase, the Mechanoids clashed with the Daleks, gaining the upper hand several times before the Daleks destroyed their city. The Mechanoids have appeared several times in the expanded universe, involved in a losing war against the Daleks before their final extermination in the short story Birth of a Legend. Beginning the performances of the main cast, this is only Bonnie Langford’s second time alongside Colin Baker in an audio after 2001’s panto piece The One Doctor. The rough, bubbly edges of Mel’s optimistic exterior are toned down in this story, but as opposed to the material given to Langford in The Fires of Vulcan that allowed her to show the dramatic range she was denied on television, the listener is treated to a Melanie Bush who’s presence in The Juggernauts is a mix of “tell, don’t show” and mischaracterization. Crash landing on the small colony of Lethe, Mel is separated from the Doctor for a period of three months. During that time, she integrates herself into the lives of the colonials, spending her work hours in the laboratory of Dr. Vaso in the creation and programming of what she believes will be the greatest service robots the universe has ever seen. The three month time jump means that the “getting to know you” portion of the relationships between Mel, Vaso, and the colonials isn’t portrayed in the story. While this lets the listener get to the crux of the story sooner, it also means that the listener has a hard time buying just how close Mel has become to Vaso and the other colonials, specifically her fellow scientists Geoff and Sonali. The friendship between them, as recorded, is based upon Geoff awkwardly (and in a bit of a creepy “Nice Guy” manner) hitting on Mel, while Sonali and Mel engage in what another reviewer brilliantly called “chuckle-talk.” It’s light banter, mixed in with quiet laughter and meant to convey a sense of “these characters all know and are close, ain’t that great?” It comes off as just a bit forced, and what’s meant to be a burgeoning possible romantic relationship between Geoff and Mel instead comes off as a bit creepy. It’s not a slight on Langford, who’s portrays Mel’s optimism and cheerfulness to the utmost, but it shows one of the big concerns of the script in not showing any sort of relationship development. The relationship between Mel and Vaso is a bit better, but another concern comes with the heaps of praise Vaso delivers to Mel for her work with the Juggernauts. The listener doesn’t get to see any of said work, coming in at the very end of the Juggernaut’s production, but it would have been nice to have some “last minute adjustments” for Mel to make to justify Vaso’s praise. It would have made the sudden-but-inevitable betrayal of Vaso/Davros towards Mel mean a little bit more as she realizes (and the listener understands just how) she’s been duped by this madman. The only time we really see Mel use her much-hyped computer skills is when she reveals she had installed a “back door” command within the Juggernauts that allows her to command them. It’s the one bright point, however, as a few scenes later, she order the same Juggernauts to kill Davros! Langford tries to get over the anger Mel feels, but the fact is such an action goes against every single bone in Melanie Bush’s body, to order the cold blooded murder of a sentient being, even one as twisted as Davros. The script barely led up to the moment, perhaps meaning for it to be a “WHAM” moment where everything changes for Mel in the long-term. Instead, without any coaxing from the Doctor, Mel is back to normal a few scenes later. Langford does her best, but the script doesn’t do her effort any justice. Mel is the central character for the first half of The Juggernauts, until the Doctor bursts on the scene in the story’s second part. Not one for tact and subtlety, Colin Baker forgoes any attempt at being sneaky or stealthy, immediately finding Mel, letting her know that Dr Vaso is really the man scientist Davros, and then storming off to confront Davros in his own lab. Solid Snake under a cardboard box, the Doctor isn’t. We get some very nice references to the regret the Doctor deals with for not killing the Daleks in Genesis of the Daleks and passing up the chance to serve as Davros’ executioner in Resurrection of the Daleks, mixing the Doctor’s honor with his pragmatism. Brash, flippant, bombastic, considering working with Davros to wipe out the Daleks on one hand while knowing such a thing could only end badly with the other, Baker does what he always does with Big Finish and turns in an absolutely great performance. Specifically, his scenes opposite Terry Malloy’s Davros are of the highest quality and hold the listener riveted throughout. In many ways, The Juggernauts serves as a follow-up to the classic audio Davros. The Juggernauts is a standalone story, but those who are familiar with the middle-story from the Villains Trilogy will find more to enjoy with the back-and-forth between the Sixth Doctor and Davros. Terry Malloy slides right back into the role of Davros; kind and charming when under the guise of Dr. Vaso, angry and ruthless once the curtain is pulled back, and willing to do anything and everything to save his own skin and his designs, whether the enemy be a galactic corporation or the Daleks. There’s no doubt from the moment of the reveal at the end of the first episode that Malloy IS Davros. For just a moment, Malloy makes the character’s supposed motivations believable enough that the listener thinks that maybe, just maybe, Davros is finally on the side of the angels. Of course, it falls through as the Juggernauts are just meant to replace the Daleks as the supreme beings of the galaxy, but it’s a massive credit to Malloy that he pulls off that moment of doubt. However, much like Mel’s moment of extreme anger, there’s a moment near the end of the story where Davros’ chair is about to reach critical and explode. Instead of using the opportunity to take the Doctor, his most hated foe with him, he tells the Doctor to run and save his life. It just felt so incredibly out of place for Davros, who runs on superiority and hatred, to have any sort of pity towards the Doctor, and this goes double if one has listened to Davros. The supporting cast feels like they were added simply to pad out the story’s run time. The two scientists, Sonali and Geoff, are played by Bindya Solanki and Klaus White, respectively. Geoff is the male “love interest” who hits on Mel, only for it to come off creepy and desperate, especially once we find out he was rejected by Sonali. Aside from talking up Mel and giving her a bit of a backstory for her three months on Lethe, the pair’s sole purpose in this story seems to be giving it a second-half subplot where they try to help the colony’s population escape before the Daleks can exterminate them. It leads to a “chase” as Geoff tries to lead them away and then double back to the escape ship before making the ultimate sacrifice, but it doesn’t add anything to the story OR to the Doctor/Davros/Mel dynamic other than to pad out the serial’s run time. Even the “music box” scene at the very end comes off as a bit more resigned than poignant. Peter Forbes as Kryson and Paul Grunet as Bauer add little to the proceedings as the corporate backers of Davros’ experiment other than the stereotypical “evil corporate” types who get in over their head and would stab each other in the back for a profit. Their presence also adds a drug addiction subplot to Kryson that goes absolutely nowhere other than Davros’ mentioning it as a piece of blackmail to hold over Kryson. Scott Alan Woodard has a small output with Big Finish. Aside from the The Juggernauts, Woodard wrote an episode for the I, Davros range, an episode for the Dark Shadows range, and the final adventure for C’rizz, Absolution. In many ways, The Juggernauts comes off almost as a piece of Doctor Who fan fiction. Granted, you could say the same of all the Big Finish audios when one considers the dedicated fans that make up the core of Big Finish Productions. There’s just something about this script that makes it very much a Doctor Who story with all the trappings. But there main characters are changed JUST enough to make them not who they really are. Mel trying to kill Davros is a game changer, but it’s brought up in just one scene and forgotten about. Davros giving the Doctor a chance to run doesn’t fit his personality, instead coming across as something the author thinks “would be interesting” without any real development or long-term effects. And using an incredibly obscure villain is definitely a fan fic cliché. I know, this is coming from someone who praised the hell out Solitaire, but the villain in that story and his mannerisms was a vital part of the plot. Here, the Mechanoids aren’t even necessary. Davros could have just built an entirely new robotic race, but instead a one-time villain is brought back because it’s “cool.” And that ties into what is the story’s biggest flaw. In the end, The Juggernauts is a story that’s been told before. Davros is back, and he’s trying to destroy his creations! But this time, he’s using humans to make up the core of the Juggernauts! And he lies to everyone until his moment of triumph where he tries to kill everyone! It’s just all been done before, and in better stories. There’s nothing original…well, check that. The sound work by Steve Foxon is top notch. The Mechanoids sound different enough from the Daleks, with a very melodic, 8-bit voice even as they clash with their foes (and a scene where someone gets crushed to death by a Juggernaut will either be laughable or cringing to a listener; I ended up cringing). The Daleks (Nicholas Briggs, of course) sound great, but Briggs and Foxon deserve a credit for the voicing of the “damaged” Daleks from the starship crash that brought Davros to Lethe. Crying “EX-EX-EX-TERM-IN-ATE” as they chase their foes, it’s a unique twist and one I’d like to see on television sometime. If The Juggernauts had been a televised serial, with the clash between Mechanoids and Daleks played on the screen and an hour of run time to cut out some of the secondary characters, it might have had a shot at being one of the classics. I think that’s why I’m scoring this one a little higher than I normally would, as I waffled between two numbers before settling on the higher one. Baker’s great. Langford’s great, given how the script asks Mel to act out of character. Malloy’s great, even as Davros acts against type to give the Doctor a chance to save his skin. The Daleks, both Imperial and “damaged,” sound great. The Mechanoids are a neat idea and come off well. But…this is just a story that I was really excited to listen to, and I enjoyed it as I was listening to it. As time passed, however, the flaws became readily apparent; poor secondary characters, a subplot that goes nowhere, a waste of the Mechanoids in the long-term, and Mel acting in such a way that it reminded me of the Doctor’s pride from Medicinal Purposes. If I came across this story randomly during re-listens, I wouldn’t skip over it, but it would definitely be a time-filler that I wish had been done better. Oh, well. They can’t all be Davros. Synopsis – Two great performances, a solid performance, and the clash between Daleks and Mechanoids can’t overcome The Juggernauts and its wasted potential, with a script that treads familiar ground and focuses too much time on unneeded secondary characters. 3/5. Next up - Cray's entire future depends on the match's outcome, but the Doctor and Nyssa soon realise that it is anything but just a game… Peter Davison is the Doctor in…The Game.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:29
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I have been re-watching Pertwee episodes. The Master is really cool and good. Also I forgot that he basically does the Hannibal Lector ambulance escape at the end of the Sea Devils. And yeah I was wrong when I assumed Missy was going to be yet another typical awful River-style Moffat female character, and that the finale would be poo poo, but I don't feel bad about not giving Moffat the benefit of the doubt after series 6 and 7.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:24
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CobiWann posted:Synopsis – Two great performances, a solid performance, and the clash between Daleks and Mechanoids can’t overcome The Juggernauts and its wasted potential, with a script that treads familiar ground and focuses too much time on unneeded secondary characters. 3/5. Yeah, it's basically Baker and Molloy who save this one for me, though Langford does the best she can with what she's given. It just feels like such a waste of the premise, and also can't help but be compared to the far superior Davros which does pretty much everything this story does, but better.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:36
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What's this?  Why, it's a nice collection of loot from my Santa, Sunsweet! I have to admit, it took me a little too long to figure out why you sent prunes. Turns out I actually like prunes though! I never knew before. Thanks so much for everything! I'm especially happy to grow my Target collection.
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Dec 23, 2014 01:57
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Was the entirety of the three doctors on Netflix before? Regardless, it's kind of good. But lol at Omega's acting.
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Dec 23, 2014 02:34
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Glenn_Beckett posted:Was the entirety of the three doctors on Netflix before? Regardless, it's kind of good. But lol at Omega's acting. YOU DARE MOCK THE GREAT OMEGA!? MY WILL CREATED THIS PLACE AND YOU SHALL NOT MOCK ME!! \ 
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Dec 23, 2014 02:55
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If we're honest, the number one flaw with the revival's the total lack of big shouty people in masks chewing the scenery
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Dec 23, 2014 02:57
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 Sycorax rock!
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Dec 23, 2014 02:59
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