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Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
I was a big cheerleader foe this game because of all the poo poo they had planned for release. Then they released and I almost feel like they Spacebase DF9'ed me.

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dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?
To be honest, at least this is a perfectly serviceable game. Its just that Mordheim really doesn't translate well to video game format, apparently.

barkbell
Apr 14, 2006

woof
make it grid based, isometric view, start warbands with more experience on some units so i get more interesting decisions that run my dudes at other dudes hope i roll better, and give me a matchmaker so i never have to play vs the ai ty

also more factions than 4

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

dogstile posted:

To be honest, at least this is a perfectly serviceable game. Its just that Mordheim really doesn't translate well to video game format, apparently.

This seems to be one of those cases where moving away from the d6-system in favour of a percentile one was actually a bad idea. In tabletop Mordheim, each level-up was a pretty big deal. Getting something rare like +1 to your Wounds was huge, making you last basically twice as long in a fight as before. Conversely, a weapon that gives you +1 to your Strength attribute made you far more deadly, putting dudes in the ground left and right. With only a handful of possible values everywhere it was very easy to estimate everybody's capabilites at a glance.

Meanwhile here a level gives you trifling +2% to this or 4% to that. Even most active skills are just switching a few percentage points around instead of doing anything unique. It's gotten too granular for its own good. As grognardy as it sounds, a simple 1:1 translation of the tabletop rules like with Blood Bowl probably would have worked much better.

Perestroika fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Nov 24, 2015

Emnity
Sep 24, 2009

King of Scotland
It should have been an Xcom-type Necromunda, but not poo poo.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
+1 wounds was a huge win at a level up. If you were really lucky you could get +1 STR and have a sword that gave +1 WS and be a mediocre blender.

Also I'm still grumpy I cant have my Hochland Long Rifle or Skaven Jezail.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


Sounds like it is a fun tabletop game. I might even considering playing if bloodbowl didn't scare me off tabletop games of this type. It's just so annoying to keep track of what each and every player's stats are on such a scale.

Are level ups in this game random? My leader rat has gained 2 strategic points and 1 offensive point in his levels. I thought it was just normal that you'd get those at certain breakpoints but maybe it's just lucky. I don't know why I didn't think there would be random levels considering how much I play bloodbowl.

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

KyloWinter posted:

make it grid based, isometric view, start warbands with more experience on some units so i get more interesting decisions that run my dudes at other dudes hope i roll better, and give me a matchmaker so i never have to play vs the ai ty

also more factions than 4

The fact I had to WASD move my guy is inherently offensive to a game like this. So is the over the shoulder view. If it were isometric and grid based it would alleviate so much of the problem.

3 Action Economist
May 22, 2002

Educate. Agitate. Liberate.
I think the idea was to make you feel more connected to each character, since it's a small-level skirmish game. Unfortunately, they all look identical, even with customization, so I have no real attachment in the end.

barkbell
Apr 14, 2006

woof
its really annoying how i cant figure out who has a backpack full of stuff and who doesnt

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Blacktoll posted:

The fact I had to WASD move my guy is inherently offensive to a game like this. So is the over the shoulder view. If it were isometric and grid based it would alleviate so much of the problem.

i think the original design goal was to make Mordheim feel really claustrophobic and confusing - like being lost in a new city in the middle of the night - but then they added the tactical map and shot themselves in the foot because you now have omniscience. Also making a strategic tactical lostincitypunk game is probably an awful idea on it's own merit

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Earlier in the thread you read posts about guys looking for landmarks and stuff to get the #squad together and it sounds kind of neat i guess.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


One trick to make the game more fun in skirmishes: Turn up the break point for the rout.

It defaults to 40% which normally meant I had all of 2 guys still standing by the end of it and the last half of the fight was just an obvious loss where I was outnumbered and super loving dead.

We tried turning it allllll the way up to 70% and we found most of the time the person who drops below 70% first would ~probably~ have lost anyway. It makes losses a hell of a lot less crushing when you only roll injuries for a couple chump hirelings instead of the majority of your team.

MadJackMcJack
Jun 10, 2009
Do the assholes who balanced this game having a loving Skaven fetish or something? Kinda got to the point where I can beat the other Warbands without too much of a beating but the loving Skaven, I may as well be trying to fight vapour the way my guys whiff their attacks. Wouldn't be so bad if they were squishy like in tabletop but they're exactly as tough as everyone else here :iiam:

I wouldn't be so pissed, but unlike games like XCOM here you lose a match, that Warband's almost certainly hosed beyond repair and then it's back to the drawing board. I'm also find the campaign lacking. I was hoping for a Shadows of Mordor-style system where a couple dozen other warbands inhabit the city and you could develop rivalries with them, and they could evolve alongside you, getting stronger or suffering setbacks. Instead, we get randomised faceless masses perfectly levelled to you. Kinda kills all desire to progress through the campaign.

Kokoro Wish
Jul 23, 2007

Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.
Really enjoying this game so far. It's pretty, it's been translated well. I can't say I agree with all the complaints about the camera or the interface. I've been playing with a controller and the game is solid and works perfectly.

Looks like people were expecting another X-Com, but the tabletop rules translate to that even less than what they've got going here.

So far I've made super-heavy rats and Slaanesh based dodgy Chaos and everything is great. I will agree with the above complaints about the campaign. While I find it servicable, a map with a set number of warbands that you can encounter, that are persistent would have let me form more attachment. A persistent online campaign would also have been great through. Playing with your friends and pitting your warbands against one-another and watching how the campaign develops it pretty much the reason main reason both Mordheim and Necromunda were great. As it is, it's a fun little tactical system that lets me grow my dudes as I see fit.

Also the whole RNG loving over your warbands thing? You have to come into it with the Bloodbowl mindset. The RNG will gently caress you over, people will die and your warband may become irredeemably hosed. You just have to shrug and start again. Luckily there's the veteran system there that makes that easier and rewards multiple warband playthoughs.

EDIT: For example, the aforementioned Slaanesh warband just bit the big one against some Sisters who hosed their poo poo up royally. Two dead veterans and my leader getting a mix of some awful mental traits. Back to the drawing board.

Who was the next warband on the development list anyway, Dwarf Treasue-Hunters? I want Beastmen personally, but I am betting they are not popular.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Nov 28, 2015

Commoners
Apr 25, 2007

Sometimes you reach a stalemate. Sometimes you get magic horses.
I guess I'm a minority in saying that I've had fun with this game. It definitely has UI problems, but I think that when you get skills involved the combat gets a little bit more complex.

I made a human skirmishing team that is just a fuckoff swarm of riflemen and archers with a few ambuscade dagger warriors that has very successfully shot my human opponents to death with impunity.

I also made an all dark souls team for chaos that just shits melee damage everywhere and is really fun to play because it is mindless charging.

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005
So when are we getting this league set up?

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011
Comparing it to blood bowl is kind of inaccurate. That game is a lot more swingy with it's random stuff, instead of the mostly granular-yet-irritating dice stuff Mordheim has. You generally play risk management with that game, with opportunity for real hail mary bullshit, and you can avoid having your guys die outside of real bad luck (or clawpomb teams) due to rerolls and positioning.

Furthermore, winning a game of blood bowl is tangentially related to the stuff that gets dudes killed. You can play around a disadvantage, and can even win with a devil may care attitude and some good fortune. It's actually similar to X Com, in that sense, and in the risk management and positioning sense. The fact that a better player can still die randomly or otherwise be neutralized is a nice way to ensure a means of equalizing things.

Mordheim, meanwhile, really forces you to play into getting your poo poo wrecked. The HP system, the OP/SP system, and the dependence on granular increments and skills that, behind the fluff, just really add dps or other direct numbers benefits for min maxing, means that a high level player is going to make a lower level one eat poo poo. There's no real strategy involved beyond how you skill your dudes and following the brain dead pattern of "surround and kill"; it's just a numbers game. The game can still be swingy due to stunning, but it's not really something the player has any control of, like a blood bowl coach deciding to do some dodging with a 1agl dude and having it work; that feels cool. Winning because a dude got stunned isn't, since it's not like I did poo poo for that to happen, aside from maybe stacking up %stun chances.

The objectives to win require playing into your teams, disadvantages, as well, and the disadvantage grows larger inexorably as the weaker side loses soldiers, and the loser winds up being much worse off than a loser of a blood bowl game, as they're much more likely to find themselves in a death spiral.

While I'm ranting, I feel the devs got real spooked about making skills too good or something, or... poo poo I don't know. The whole thing is just % for OP style weaksauce, and the stuff that really does something is usually rather minor. Blood Bowl skills can really alter the way a character plays: even most skill ups let's you do new things and change your plays, rather than just "hit a guy slightly better" (tho those exist). Xcom skills are big gamechangers that make a character more powerful by adding new options that enable decisive, singular events, granting a player a sense of real agency to what goes on. Even just deciding weapon loadout affects the manner the player interacts with the tactical game.

Mordheim doesn't give stuff that opens up new avenues for player agency. The weapons just change numbers, that all can be just broken down into "does this improve my average damage". Even the stuff meant to counter stances are just really loving pathetic; just x% less chance for stances to work. It's utterly passive. No sense of impact; you can't even tell when it would have mattered. There's no interacting systems, no tactical forethought, just the numbers game, and hoping the enemy HP fall faster than yours. It's such a slow loving game, not just due to long animations and silly controls, but because most of the time, you have nothing to think or plan over, or anything to react to.

I've had a single moment in this game that made me sit up and go "whoa poo poo" like Blood Bowl or X Com did; my mage rolled a misfire, which caused everyone around him in the melee he was in to get stunned. It was neat, made me react, and gently caress, if skills could do things like that instead of just faffling with the damage% game, it'd be a game that actually rewards planning or positioning and give me something that makes me feel like I'm actually involved with this poo poo show.

ok those are my words

Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Nov 28, 2015

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?
I fully agree. I have moments in blood bowl where i've managed to stall for an entire half with the score being 1-1 and then make ridiculous plays to knock a guy down, pick up a ball in a tackle zone, jump out, long pass it across the match and run it in to win on the very last turn.

You don't get anything close to that in mordheim. All you get is "all alone check: fail" and your guys killing a dude or dying.

Kokoro Wish
Jul 23, 2007

Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.
All I know is my Skaven just spent an entire match dancing around the rooftops dodging in and out of Sisters' engagement zones, jumping up and down buildings in sheer panic because ladies are loving deadly. All that while my Gutter Runner snuck around and grabbed their Idol, heavily denting their morale and allowing me to win by frantically peppering their Matriarch with shuriken from the rafters.

poo poo was pretty great.

Hey if you want to break the game down to numbers and grind you can do that in Blood Bowl too with blodge everything make a square and grind down the field. If you're Choas makes sure to get your claws too! Numbers numbers numbers. We need some of the more exotic bands in the game really. Skaven are great as an agile extreme, but the other three are too similar really. Should have had Dwarves and their lack of mobility in from the start. Having a Slayer run around at full clip murdering people would have been neat too.

Hell, Carnival of Chaos would also have been pretty great.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 28, 2015

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
Inhave to admit there are moments of great fun to be had. Your minions start to get stories that follow them. Like one veteran fighter Inhave who is now missing an arm and a leg. He's by far my best defensive fighter and can hold the line against anything. Even even took a Bloodthirster in 1v1 and almost won.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?
That's just it, to play an agile race you really have to play skaven and even then you'll be disengaging half the time because the rooftops aren't really hard to get onto.

Sure i've got some good fighters, but i'm not particularly impressed with the game. Maybe Mordheim 2 if it gets made will be less clunky.

my effigy burns
Aug 23, 2015

IF I'M NOT SHITPOSTING ABOUT HOW I, A JUNIOR DEVELOPER IN JAVASCRIPT KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW, PLEASE CHECK TO BE SURE MY ACCOUNT WAS NOT COMPROMISED BY A CLIENT-SIDE BOTNET, TIA
Before we do a league, does anyone want to play a skirmish of new warband against new warband? I've played for about 20 hours and had fun with it in single player, but let's find out of if having fun in the skirmishes is scientifically impossible.

I don't think Mordheim is truly finished game or that the devs got all of their priorities right, but you can dissect any game and explain what makes it terrible. Diablo 2 was just clicking on stuff and using a pre-designed build, starcraft rewards people who can click faster over actual tactical thought, x-com is horribly unbalanced with essentially unplayable multiplayer, etc.

There's a lot of legitimate disappointment in the thread, but if you like the Mordheim universe and you already own the game and you have an internet connection, a league could be interesting, with a little bit of trial and error.

Abongination
Aug 18, 2010

Life, it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come.
Pillbug
I've played about 25 hours of this so far and have enjoyed my time with it.

Don't feel like the game is finished however which is something I'm getting sick of with Steam games so hopefully they release a bit more content before they start pumping out the paid DLC.

sexy tiger boobs
Aug 23, 2002

Up shit creek with a turd for a paddle.

I like this game too, at least the single player. Cool world, fun building up your warband and hoping they don't get hosed up.

Fishstick
Jul 9, 2005

Does not require preheating
Chaos.jpg


Tl;dr the literally first spell cast by the enemy chaos sorceror is a self-buff called Boon of Chaos - hilariously fails his Curse roll, immediately gets hit by 6666 damage.



Fake edit: This game has its issues (Load times are pretty bad even on SSD, and some UI issues like not being able to see units' backpack contents - the latter being a biggie on some story missions), but I'm having a great time with it.

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

quote:

The curse dealing fatal damage has been changed from 6666 to 9999 (since 9 is the sacred number of Tzeentch)

Looks like wyrdmeat's back on the menu, boys.

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001
I wish someone would do a necromunda game, but make it better than this.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


I find myself actually really enjoying this game. i still don't like how easy it is for a team to completely explode after a single match but ever since I messed with the game settings some I feel like I make at least some progress even on a loss. I have a group of friends and we all just play pick up games with each other, it's pretty good.

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
I guess i really enjoy this terrible game because im still doing a mission or two a day.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
Now that a good friend of mine has picked up the game, and we both played the tabletop game, I'm having a lot of fun with this bad game.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Tiler Kiwi posted:

While I'm ranting, I feel the devs got real spooked about making skills too good or something, or... poo poo I don't know. The whole thing is just % for OP style weaksauce, and the stuff that really does something is usually rather minor.

I personally find this really frustrating, it makes me wonder if there was a vocal number of EA testers who kept finding exploits or something and all they could think to do in response was nerf things. Some of the skills are so laughably useless, I have no idea what the designer of them was thinking. For example, there's a skill that gives you a +15% chance to pass climb/jump checks for 1 turn, only you lose 35hp next turn, which can kill you. Not only is that 35hp 2x higher than the amount you'd lose when failing a climb down check, but there's a different passive skill that gives you the +15% chance permanently, with no disadvantages, so why use the active one? There are also a bunch of active skills that would be marginally useful in a fight (like convert 3 SP into 1 OP), but they only work if the user isn't engaged in melee combat (i.e. not fighting).

On the other hand, this is the first game I've gotten where ironman/permadeath is so strictly enforced, so I'm seeing if I can learn who to not be so loss averse while playing. I kind of spoiled XCOM for myself by save scumming, so maybe I can learn to roll with the punches a bit!

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN
I think when I get home tonight I'm going to dig around in files and see if I can change skills at least for single player. Cause most of them really are useless.

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005
I think they said they will welcome modding in the future.

DeathSandwich
Apr 24, 2008

I fucking hate puzzles.
I mean, in my mind's eye there's two ways to handle the translation from a tabletop game to a video game. You can keep the rules intact and try and port the game over wholesale like they do with blood bowl, or you can throw out the tabletop rules in favor of having a game mechanically fun to play on the PC like Dawn of War does and Total Warhammer is going to try and do. Trying to find the middle ground between the two approaches is how you wind up with games like this and that godawful Warmachines game. Granted this isn't nearly on the same level of bad video game as Warmachines, there is just so much better it could of done had they not tried to do a Psuedo-Tabletop-But-Also-Not-Really approach like they did here. It's a shame that this isn't great since it will kind of stomp on my dreams of having a Necromunda game in the vein of XCom.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


Steam ID is http://steamcommunity.com/id/Agent355/

Add me and yell at me for pick up games. This game was made for a big rear end circle of people who just yell at each other to play a game from time to time. Preferrably over skype so I can complain when you roll crits and I fail agility rolls with skaven.

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I'm at the library mission right now, and it's like that was specifically made to showcase all the bad parts about the game, ugh :negative:

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005

Added ya.

grobbo
May 29, 2014
Well, a game dev who I respect was enjoying this game, so I gave it a download and a go.

The pleasures seem to be mostly in the warband management right now; somehow I've ended up with an incompetent, goatee-d captain who gets knocked out every combat while his vastly more competent youngblood lieutenant runs around getting everything done. Also, no money, because the captain needed a duelling pistol which he rarely gets to fire.

As for the combat, there's the good swearing (as another Sister of Sigmar rounds the corner of a building) and the bad swearing (as I repeatedly get stuck on the corner of a building). And then too much waiting at every stage.

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Lassitude
Oct 21, 2003

Dreylad posted:

I wish someone would do a necromunda game, but make it better than this.

X-Com style Necromunda game would be incredible.

That said, this game isn't terrible. The UI is annoying and it needs more content, so I'm hoping they keep working on it, but it's not bad.

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