|
kapparomeo posted:Actually, something not too dissimilar happened just last week in the UK which has a bearing on the issue of students' - or activist groups who claim to speak for them - current enthusiasm for the censorship of wrongthink. The author was attending a debate on abortion at Oxford University (for the pro-choice position, which should make him sufficiently Correct for D&D to tolerate) and the event was cancelled because an activist group threatened "disruption" because the speakers both had the wrong chromosomes. doesn't speak to the speakers faith in their believs
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 02:50 |
|
|
# ? Apr 27, 2024 00:16 |
|
420DD Butts posted:This is a common thing and not at all in the fever dreams of 'persecuted' conservatives. I used the pull the fire alarm example because that's exactly what happened when a men's rights activist was supposed to give a speech at the University of Toronto.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 02:53 |
|
kapparomeo posted:Actually, something not too dissimilar happened just last week in the UK which has a bearing on the issue of students' - or activist groups who claim to speak for them - current enthusiasm for the censorship of wrongthink. The author was attending a debate on abortion at Oxford University (for the pro-choice position, which should make him sufficiently Correct for D&D to tolerate) and the event was cancelled because of threats of "disruption" because the speakers both had the wrong chromosomes. This is a truly terrible article for multiple reasons, not least of which is the "Kids these days!" bullshit. on the left posted:I used the pull the fire alarm example because that's exactly what happened when a men's rights activist was supposed to give a speech at the University of Toronto. Read my post again and focus on the word "common". Also, one student pulling a fire alarm is hardly an organized attack on free speech.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 02:54 |
|
on the left posted:I used the pull the fire alarm example because that's exactly what happened when a men's rights activist was supposed to give a speech at the University of Toronto. wow that's terrible i remember one time in elementary school someone pulled the fire alarm i don't think ill ever get over it
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 02:55 |
|
I cannot get over how awful that article is on the whole. It's a collection of anecdotes (sometimes overblown in how censorious they are) to support the idea that kids these days are brainless and hate freedom. The author may as well have replaced the entire article with an old man yelling at a cloud.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 02:58 |
|
420DD Butts posted:I cannot get over how awful that article is on the whole. It's a collection of anecdotes (sometimes overblown in how censorious they are) to support the idea that kids these days are brainless and hate freedom. The author may as well have replaced the entire article with an old man yelling at a cloud. welcome to british journalism
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:10 |
|
Jagchosis posted:welcome to british journalism I just looked it up and the Spectator is apparently a Conservative rag and the author is a libertarian who hates same sex marriage and thinks efforts to stop racism in soccer are bad. Because of course.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:23 |
|
420DD Butts posted:Read my post again and focus on the word "common". Also, one student pulling a fire alarm is hardly an organized attack on free speech. Extreme leftists are obsessed with "no platform", and it's a very common thing for them to try to prevent wrongthink from occurring anywhere.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:29 |
|
ha yeah conservatives never do that, qed
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:33 |
|
To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. At my university, the university threatened to expel people for certain party themes that were popular at the time, and they had some sort of diversity stasi corps that would scan facebook for any of the offending parties or its costumes.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:39 |
|
on the left posted:To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. Anecdotes, the plural of data! Not to mention the hand-wringing over the speech code at UCM is hilarious. It is the same generic "Honor Code" statement you see at any large university, essentially urging you to treat other students with respect and not to berate or attack others. Oh, the horror.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:43 |
|
on the left posted:To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. hm "code of conduct: don't be an rear end in a top hat" and "student expelled for being a huge rear end in a top hat" yeah i don't care also loving lol at putting "professional standards" in scare quotes like protecting the right of assholes to be assholes is the only legal obligation universities have. what's EO? oh sorry didn't hear you *posts stupid libertarian poo poo* haha Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:44 |
|
Free speech isn't under attack, because the type of speech I like isn't under attack
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:50 |
|
Perhaps if you actually read some of these cases you wouldn't be so quick to open your mouth and insert thine foot. The problem isn't that these speech codes say "don't be an rear end in a top hat", the problem is that the way they're written is unconstitutionally vague (and the courts generally have agreed with this, over and over).
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:50 |
|
on the left posted:To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. "certain party themes" i.e. dress like a black or a mexican
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:51 |
|
on the left posted:To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. How is this 'plainly obvious'? I mean, are you just counting any limitation on speech as an attack on free speech? Common sense says that there have to be some limitations on speech. In some circumstances, speech is going to be more constrained than in others. If you're in a board meeting, there are different rules about speech than if you're in a bar with friends. The principle of free academic speech is very important, but you're mixing it up willy-nilly with just being an rear end in a top hat. And again, academic speech is complicated because there are some positions that are put forwards in an academic manner, like racism, holocaust denial, etc--but they aren't actually academic, because they're based on false premises. A lot of people far too often give respect to an academic framing, but that's just necessary for something to be academic, not sufficient.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:51 |
|
Speech codes are not an attack on conservatives so much as they are a safety blanket and make-work program for the insecurities of the modern left. As always it will end in the latter turning on each other over personality clashes and power plays, this time with critical race/gender/privilege theory as the ideological cover and speech/consent/diversity/no-platforming as the machinery of enforcement.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:52 |
|
Dmitri-9 posted:"certain party themes" i.e. dress like a black or a mexican Regardless of what it is, it's not the university's place to police what people do off campus.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:54 |
|
-Troika- posted:Perhaps if you actually read some of these cases you wouldn't be so quick to open your mouth and insert thine foot. The problem isn't that these speech codes say "don't be an rear end in a top hat", the problem is that the way they're written is unconstitutionally vague (and the courts generally have agreed with this, over and over). And, in my experience, these speech codes or honor codes mean very little to nothing. They're there as a reminder for people to be civil to each other, you're not seeing students being pulled out of class for saying mean things to each other. The only time they become an issue is when the university feels they could personally lose (funding, support, etc.) due to someone's personal actions. They have nothing to do with a concerted attack on free speech and everything to do with universities wanting to cover their asses.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:54 |
|
They mean little or nothing until the university decides to use it to try to run out a student (or a professor) that someone in the administration doesn't like.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:56 |
|
-Troika- posted:They mean little or nothing until the university decides to use it to try to run out a student (or a professor) that someone in the administration doesn't like. Get this: no one in the administration is going to know any student well enough to want to "run them out". The idea is laughable. It really would only work for professors, and it doesn't specifically target conservative professors.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 03:58 |
|
on the left posted:Regardless of what it is, it's not the university's place to police what people do off campus. honor codes dude, get as libertarian mad about it as you want but racism isn't as chic as it once was
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:03 |
|
Shamefulquote:UCLA education professor emeritus Val Rust was involved in multiculturalism long before the concept even existed. A pioneer in the field of comparative education, which studies different countries’ educational systems, Rust has spent over four decades mentoring students from around the world and assisting in international development efforts. He has received virtually every honor awarded by the Society of Comparative and International Education. His former students are unanimous in their praise for his compassion and integrity. “He’s been an amazing mentor to me,” says Cathryn Dhanatya, an assistant dean for research at the USC Rossiter School of Education. “I’ve never experienced anything remotely malicious or negative in terms of how he views students and how he wants them to succeed.” Rosalind Raby, director of the California Colleges for International Education, says that Rust pushes you to “reexamine your own thought processes. There is no one more sensitive to the issue of cross-cultural understanding.” A spring 2013 newsletter from UCLA’s ed school celebrated Rust’s career and featured numerous testimonials about his warmth and support for students. http://www.city-journal.org/2014/24_4_racial-microaggression.html
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:03 |
|
420DD Butts posted:Get this: no one in the administration is going to know any student well enough to want to "run them out". The idea is laughable. It's not the administration that does it, it's oftentimes an extremely butthurt member of student government who sends a whiny email about someone who has wronged him/her. I've been CC'd on many of these when I was in university. Dmitri-9 posted:honor codes dude, get as libertarian mad about it as you want but racism isn't as chic as it once was It's a restriction on speech, and for a public university, it doesn't fly
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:04 |
|
on the left posted:Regardless of what it is, it's not the university's place to police what people do off campus. Of course it is. The university would 'police' all sorts of other things people did off campus, from illegal activities to simply unethical ones. For example, if someone in a degree program had a blog where they routinely posted plagiarized material, they'd be sanctioned. If a grad student in physics gave support to a conspiracy theory project, they'd be sanctioned. If someone sent letters to other student's parents telling those parents that their students were doing lots of coke and pulling trains, they'd be sanctioned. Some of this might be officially sanctionable, some might not be, but in all cases it'd be socially sanctioned, which can have a much greater 'chilling' effect. Can you explain why you think a university shouldn't in any way 'police' what people do off campus? Do you want to walk that back a little from the precipice of ad absurdem on which you stand, or do you want to do a little dance on the cliff? quote:It's a restriction on speech, and for a public university, it doesn't fly Do you understand that everyone agrees that there are necessarily some restrictions on speech, even in an academic context? Do you understand the difference between academic free speech and other speech? on the left posted:Because it's plainly none of their business. "Explain" doesn't mean 'assert as an axiom'. Why is it plainly none of their business? If someone in their free time publishes a zine declaring all blacks to be subhuman cretins, do you expect that student to be taken seriously as a TA for classes involving black students?
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:05 |
|
Obdicut posted:Can you explain why you think a university shouldn't in any way 'police' what people do off campus? Do you want to walk that back a little from the precipice of ad absurdem on which you stand, or do you want to do a little dance on the cliff? Because it's plainly none of their business.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:05 |
|
on the left posted:Because it's plainly none of their business. Why not?
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:06 |
|
on the left posted:It's not the administration that does it, it's oftentimes an extremely butthurt member of student government who sends a whiny email about someone who has wronged him/her. I've been CC'd on many of these when I was in university. Generally there is a lengthy process to determine if someone is or isnt partaking in activities that are disruptive to the university. It's not like someone can just petition to have someone removed or censored by the university and they will just go along with it. Why are the sources for all these PC-gone-mad horror stories almost always conservative rags/newsletters? Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:09 |
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Why not? Because you signed up and paid to go to class, not to have your life policed. I'm sure this would be the go to argument for goons if it turned out that universities were expelling cohabitating unmarried couples or women who worked as strippers/porn stars.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:12 |
|
Obdicut posted:Can you explain why you think a university shouldn't in any way 'police' what people do off campus? Do you want to walk that back a little from the precipice of ad absurdem on which you stand, or do you want to do a little dance on the cliff? Like interracial dating for instance. But yeah, it was totally absurd of that British guy to compare the new left to the old right.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:14 |
|
on the left posted:Because you signed up and paid to go to class, not to have your life policed. I'm sure this would be the go to argument for goons if it turned out that universities were expelling cohabitating unmarried couples or women who worked as strippers/porn stars. I think BYU does this already. They have a strict as gently caress honor code. I guess you are talking about public only, but that is kind of arbitrary.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:14 |
|
Lets read another Heather Mac Donald masterpiecequote:The Campus Rape Myth
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:14 |
|
on the left posted:To get back to the subject of "Is free speech under attack", it's plainly obvious that it is. The front page of The Fire's website has a consistent stream of bullshit speech codes and abridgement of freedom of speech such as a speech code at University of Central Missouri that bans hateful rhetoric or a student expelled because of Facebook posts. Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:15 |
|
420DD Butts posted:Generally there is a lengthy process to determine if someone is or isnt partaking in activities that are disruptive to the university. It's not like someone can just petition to have someone removed or censored by the university and they will just go along with it. Why can't you debate at a more sophisticated level than pointing out the general political character of a publisher.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:15 |
|
Ian Winthorpe III posted:Like interracial dating for instance. "That british guy" also happens to be part of a formerly far left group that swung far to the right and has a history of attacking "other" leftist groups and whining about persecution. So excuse me if I meet the posted articles with some measure of incredulity. Ian Winthorpe III posted:Why can't you debate at a more sophisticated level than pointing out the general political character of a publisher. Hmm, an entire political movement founded upon a persecution complex. I wonder why they would feel their rights are under attack? Next, you can post some Sean Hannity clips so that I can debate such glorious ideas as the "victomology of black communities" and "kids are dumb" Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:16 |
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I think BYU does this already. They have a strict as gently caress honor code. Private can basically do whatever they want, public is where it's an arm of the state and laws shape university rules. If you want a crazy behavior code, the all-time champion is Liberty University, which even prohibits stuff like watching R rated movies: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/11/1090946/-Liberty-University-s-The-Liberty-Way-exposed
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:19 |
|
420DD Butts posted:
Because modern conservative movements (in the US) run on the outrage machine. So you have to constantly be offended and every battle must be a last stand against persecution. It is actually a really really effective tactic and the fact liberals (or democrats I guess) haven't properly used this tactic is just weird to me.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:19 |
|
420DD Butts posted:"That british guy" also happens to be part of a formerly far left group that swung far to the right and has a history of attacking "other" leftist groups and whining about persecution. So excuse me if I meet the posted articles with some measure of incredulity. You're free to feel however you want, I just thought as somebody posting in this topic you might like to discuss or debate what happened to Professor Rust at UCLA.
|
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:22 |
|
Ian Winthorpe III posted:Like interracial dating for instance. Try being a little less tersely witty and a little more actually explaining whatever the hell you're talking about. You seem to just be using the fatuously stupid "But they could police behavior that's good!" approach. This is trivially true, but also totally pointless. Any power can be used for ill, that doesn't mean all power is wrong. Ian Winthorpe III posted:You're free to feel however you want, I just thought as somebody posting in this topic you might like to discuss or debate what happened to Professor Rust at UCLA. Are you objecting to the student's use of free speech in their sit-in? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:23 |
|
|
# ? Apr 27, 2024 00:16 |
|
hmm yeah did the research and there is a definite grey line between what constitutes an overly broad speech code and what doesn't. part of that is because the most anti-student-speech-code controlling precedent at the appellate level was written by noted intellectually dishonest fartbag, then Judge Samuel Alito (Saxe v. State Coll. Area Sch. Dist., 240 F.3d 200 (3d Cir. 2001)) so the opinion is waffling and nonsensical to reach the opinion that he wants, sorta like his opinion in Hobby Lobby. other circuit courts have held that speech codes that say being a massive bellend are against the rules are fine, so at best this is a circuit split issue and not an area of settled law, as to where the line is drawn. speaking of intellectually dishonest, fuckin hell FIRE is worthless, they pick and choose so much to the point of utter uselessness. like why did they only reproduce 2 pages of a guide explaining the code, and not the code itself, or the entire guide Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 04:24 |