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Night10194 posted:This, right here, is exactly why this game is so good. It never sacrifices story for gameplay or gameplay for story. The game shows an uncommon amount of competence regarding balancing and meshing gameplay with story, kind of surprising in a modern fps.
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Dec 30, 2014 09:36
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Lazyfire posted:
I think you might have forgotten a wee bit of editing involving the first minute of video there my good friend 
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Dec 30, 2014 13:28
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Lazyfire posted:Yeah, the next chapter is going to be possibly a little bit upsetting for some people. I hedged my bets a bit and mention that in the video for the level because it's so loving bizarre to see a game like this one, which revels in making Nazis insides their outsides, attempt to portray something like a forced labor/concentration camp. There's also a ton of depressing conversations to be had, so fun times ahead. To be fair a significant part of the reason why Nazis are synonymous with 'evil' are the concentration and death camps they set up. It's also a subject that not much fiction likes to talk about in any real detail so it's really interesting to see that the devs decided to just go full bore and show us all exactly why everyone hates the Nazis. I hope it really is as discomforting as it sounds; the camps were seriously horrific in every sense.
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Dec 30, 2014 15:31
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Pvt.Scott posted:If you look up a reprehensible thing, between the Allies and the Axis, it happened somewhere. War is hell. Unit 731 comes to mind. Not only reprehensible things, also batshit insane things. The Nazis tried a little of everything. anilEhilated posted:And if you don't find it there, you can bet your rear end Russians did it at some point. The Russians preferred their evil to be more organized, long-term and less creative. Usually.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:24
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FinalGamer posted:Problem is, he kinda forgot the biggest rule of combat. When you initiate a WORLD WAR involving the entire human race to focus on you with a spotlight, it is reaaaaaaaaally impossible to get away with that under the guise of "history not written" when every single person is watching you, the loving idiot. He also picked exactly the wrong era to try this stunt in; it's much harder to get away with atrocity by simply ignoring it when people have made video tapes and taken photos of all the atrocity you did. When you look at how totally unwilling everyone was to believe that things like the camps actually existed and how even today with all the proof we have to show that they absolutely did there are still people who simply cannot bring themselves to believe that a normal human being could possibly do that to other human beings, it becomes apparent that odds are pretty good poo poo like this has been happening constantly throughout history and was just never found out. The rise of the TV camera basically destroyed the illusion of the 'Glory' of war and made it an order of magnitude harder to get away with war crimes in one fell swoop and the Nazi's got themselves caught right on the tip of the emerging blade of journalism.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:31
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ZeusCannon posted:This is appropo of nothing and I apologize. What the gently caress is up with your av? From what I understand Ironknuckle is a guy who got repeatedly permabanned from SA for being an unrepentant shithead so now he buys random users racist avatars and titles that link to his lovely blog so he can declare victory over SA because hes getting traffic. Apparently he's a major source of income for Lowtax as a result. Night10194 posted:He's not a whiner, he's a man who has been fighting a seemingly hopeless resistance struggle for 14 years after fighting in a World War before that and who is well into his fifties/early sixties. And who had been captured and tortured for months before that. Dude's been through some poo poo. Yeah, the surprising part isn't that he's having a moment of weakness but that he's still alive at all.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:48
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chitoryu12 posted:Yeah, I can hardly criticize Fergus here. He's really clearly suffering from bad PTSD. Considering what we know he's gone through and what he probably has gone through that we haven't seen 'PTSD' only begins to cover it. Actually considering the situation 'Ongoing Traumatic Stress Disorder' might be more appropriate
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Dec 31, 2014 04:29
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Speedball posted:Super Bunnyhop did a review of this game where it mentioned it plays camp elements for horror: robo-nazis are just a new level of disturbing rather than ridiculous like they could or should have been. Probably because unlike magic nazis, robo-nazis are plausible. Everyone knows magic isn't real and when you see a genuine zombie running around it's almost impossible to take it 'seriously' but the same is not true of machines. Machines have been performing magic and doing the impossible pretty much since the start of the industrial revolution (and even before then in some respects) so while we intellectually know that autonomous mechwarriors and panzer hounds aren't actually realistic they still feel plausible to us because they look kind of like real machines and they move kind of like real machines and machines can do impossible things so we're more willing to accept them and take them seriously than out and out sorcery.
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Dec 31, 2014 05:17
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The early twentieth century marked the advent of true industrialized warfare and the adolescence of the recently birthed 'nation-state' of modern nationalism. It turned out that a bunch of young and hungry nations armed with weapons they didn't fully understand all packed together into the tiny landmass that is Europe was a somewhat volatile combination. We had all these young ideologies competing on a literal battlefield that nobody understood fighting with weapons and tactics and strategies that had never really been used before and it all went to hell so hard that just when they thought they'd crawled out the ground gave way and whoops everybody is killing everybody else and its all changed again. Early twentieth century Europe is largely a case study in what not to do. (Not that other parts of the world were necessarily doing any better, they definitely weren't doing any worse.) Neruz fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 07:28
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WirelessPillow posted:Still learning from all that as well, as we are moving towards an age of robots we are still figuring out how, what and why with our new tools that are barely 100 years old and tactics in life that changed everything. Its going so fast that some places are still years behind, and we only need to look at the history of Japan to look at incredibly fast modernization, fighting rifles and gun ships with arrows and swords. I can only assume the Cold War slowed down the learning curve immensely, and then there was that whole Chernobyl thing that they are still working on containing. We are good at making disasters! The thing about rapid progress is that it's dangerous as poo poo and there is no room at all for cutting corners. Even then sometimes you still run face first into disaster because you just couldn't see it coming, this is why for the vast majority of human history 'change' has been pretty much synonymous with 'dangerous, unpredictable and probably lethal.' And then for reasons no-one is entirely sure of for the last ~5 centuries or so the peoples inhabiting 'Europe' and especially England slowly began not to fear change as they rightly should, but actively seek it. And then thanks to a useful combination of circumstances those people invented the steam engine that could run on coal from mines while pumping water out of those same mines to allow more coal to be dug out and holy poo poo humans unlock entirely new untapped reserves of energy the likes of which no-one had ever even conceived of in their wildest dreams and human civilization takes off like a rocket. And we all really, really hope it doesn't also explode like one. Speedball posted:Either those robots are nuclear or they run off of some other unknown power source. In Wolfenstein 2009 their weird machines all ran off of energy sucked out of the Veil, but here we don't have any magic (or cross-dimensional stuff, as the case may be). Judging by all the electrical arcs the energy source is probably "Tesla" and given that the man was basically a real-life mad scientist and that Deathshead clearly learned from the best means that it could well be miniaturized black-holes or an interdimensional siphon. The idea of what Tesla could have accomplished had circumstances been better for him is already pretty scary, the idea of what Telsa could accomplish when he is a Nazi called Deathshead in a Wolfenstein game is moderately pants-making GBS threads. Neruz fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 08:24
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Yeah I can buy miniature fission\fusion reactors in 1960 from Nazi Tesla.
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Dec 31, 2014 12:46
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Armor is functionally extra health, be interesting to know which has the greater overall impact.
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Dec 31, 2014 13:03
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Yeah, cheap and light materials are just that; cheap and light. Sometimes cheap and light is exactly what you need.
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Jan 1, 2015 09:16
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My how the times have changed
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Jan 1, 2015 10:42
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Teddles posted:I don't get why the super science guys didn't go "Welp, the Nazis found our just-for-funsies superweapon designs and are trying to take over the world. Maybe we should help out the good guys?". They were too busy being rounded up and put into Ghettos and Concentration Camps, like the Nazis didn't find the superweapons and then start WWII, they started WWII and somewhere along the way while in the process of rounding up the Jews they stumbled on a fairly small and recent Da'at Yichud bunker that was presumably still being filled with inventions which would explain why it was so easily located. The Da'at Yichud didn't expect WWII to be what it was (hell, nobody did) and they didn't expect it to interrupt everything and throw the entire Jewish population of Europe into chaos the way it did so the were basically caught with their pants down and by the time anyone realized how bad it was going to get it was too late and the Nazis were already in charge. The fact that one of their major vaults is literally on the bottom of the Atlantic ocean suggests that the Da'at Yichud have actually done a pretty stellar job of keeping all their doomsday machines safe and were just caught unprepared by WWII which is fair enough because nobody was prepared for WWII, even the people who started it weren't really prepared for it. As excuses go 'We would have had it all under control but WWII got in the way' is a pretty good one. It's also nice that our surviving Da'at Yichud doesn't even try to throw any doubts or questions out about getting some better tech from another bunker; he recognizes that it's the only way to level the playing field and stop the Nazis even though it goes against his personal beliefs and he's willing to not only suggest it but spearhead the process if only so that he can try and impress upon us that it is important not to abuse this knowledge. Considering what has historically happened to societies that suddenly jumped forward several centuries of technological progress has been less than pleasant the Da'at Yichud's fears are fairly reasonable. chitoryu12 posted:Well, what is the supernatural but what science cannot yet explain? Perhaps Set is correct: it's not "supernatural", merely science that has not been explored by contemporary scientists yet. 'Magic' is just a word people use when they don't understand what is going on. Sufficiently advanced technology really is indistinguishable from magic, probably because for most of human history 'magic' was in fact just sufficiently advanced technology. The magic sword that shines like the moon and cuts through lesser bronze blades, but must be fed daily with rare oils lest it begin to bleed? Meteoric steel. The wizard who hurls thunder and fire is actually throwing gunpowder in pouches\onto fires. The witch who can heal incurable diseases with magical potions has found a natural antibiotic agent in one of the plants she uses and so on. The only reason people don't think magic exists is because they think they understand how modern technology works, or at least they understand that other people understand how it works. But to the average man something like the LHC might as well be magic, and even to experienced physicists anything involving quantum mechanics bloody well is magic because quantum mechanics seems determined to prove that nothing makes any sense. Magical wizards did exist, they just started explaining themselves to the rest of us and turned into knowledgeable scientists as time passed and attitudes changed. That said is any of what we see in TNO even remotely realistic or plausible? Not really, not by our current understanding of reality at any rate. That said there's absolutely no reason why they can't call their 1960s robot mechs and laser rifles 'technology' and tell us that the reason it seems like magic is because we just don't understand the underlying principles. That's just as acceptable as saying 'A WIZARD DID IT'; this is fiction after all. Personally I like the whole thing because it adds some extra layers to the Nazi characterization; we now know that Deathshead (and through him the Nazi Regime) doesn't only hate Jews because of their ludicrous ideas about genetics, Deathshead is probably reasonably terrified of the possibility of the Da'at Yichud getting their poo poo together and opposing him, so he's going to kill all the Jews to make sure that can't happen. Not only do the Nazis hate the 'subhuman' populations, at least one of them is also actively afraid of what they could do. Neruz fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 06:52
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To be fair the Black Sun stuff could just as easily have been interdimensional aliens as it could have been magic 
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Jan 2, 2015 07:13
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Speedball posted:Sufficiently analyzed black magic is indistinguishable from mad science. Since 'magic' is just a code word for 'we don't understand this' sufficiently analyzed black magic ceases to be magic and becomes mad science
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Jan 2, 2015 07:17
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I could totally buy BJ as a modern-day Samson given his displayed lethality.
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Jan 2, 2015 08:29
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Lazyfire posted:Like I said, Set is the best character. Constant sarcasm and veiled insults around the clock. To be fair to Set I imagine 'how badly we hosed up' is not a subject he's particularly fond of talking about. chitoryu12 posted:Set would probably want to try and analyze everything from a scientific standpoint. A truly scientific mind, especially one who believes that there's technically no such thing as "supernatural", would see something that's "obviously magic" and assume that it must simply be more aspects of the universe (like gravity and nuclear energy once were) that are not yet understood. "Magic" would merely be another form of energy flowing through the universe, which can be analyzed and harnessed. Pretty much, if the magic actually exists then by definition it can be studied and if it can be studied it won't stay magic for long.
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Jan 2, 2015 09:00
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To briefly go back to the pretty stellar depiction of a concentration\death camp in the game, one part that gets touched on near the start with the cement mixing but not really explained or expounded upon is just how stupid the Nazis were with these camps. Survivors from the camps have all these stories about how the Nazis would put carpenters to work laying bricks while bricklayers were put to work cutting boards and often when a prisoner attempted to point out that their skillset was better used elsewhere in the camp the Nazis would outright refuse to do anything. In many cases they deliberately learned what their prisoners skillsets were purely so they could be put to work doing something they didn't know how to do! The result was that unsurprisingly the work camps were slow, inefficient and produced very little while consuming quite a lot of resources. The goddamn Nazis couldn't even oppress people efficiently. You know, the other two panzerhounds look a bit implausible to me, but that one right there looks almost like a real thing that humans might actually build. Neruz fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 02:23
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Night10194 posted:Don't forget how a lot of the infamous unreliability of Nazi equipment partly came from their own slave labor sabotaging the hell out of everything they could while building it. What Set was doing with the concrete is pretty much what a lot of Jewish (and other) prisoners did with everything they were asked to build. Yeah but I always found it incredibly ironic that even had the prisoners been working to the best of their abilities they still would have been turning out low quality poo poo thanks to mismanagement.
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Jan 3, 2015 03:02
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Cythereal posted:German equipment was also incredibly unreliable because much of their equipment was overengineered and overly complicated. There were exceptions to be sure, and some of their complex toys worked like a charm, but unreliability due to complexity and cost/frequency of maintenance is a big part of why the Tiger was historically considered a fairly mediocre and unimpressive tank, to name one example. The first M26 Pershing in combat was knocked out by a Tiger I that almost immediately proceeded to back into a pile of rubble and get stuck; forcing its crew to abandon it
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Jan 3, 2015 03:10
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Almost all the combat reports involving Tiger tanks basically come in two flavours; 'The tank was nearly indestructible until it got stuck on [Minor Geological Feature] and had to be abandoned\was shot in the back at close range' or 'The tank failed to reach combat and got stuck on [Minor Geological Feature] and had to be abandoned prior to engaging the enemy.' The Tiger I tank was an excellent machine on perfectly flat packed dirt fields and that was about it. Still better than the Tiger II though which mostly failed to do anything except stall and crash.
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Jan 3, 2015 03:32
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Cythereal posted:IIRC, the Tiger was far from indestructible. There have been several papers in the military history thread over in A/T and lengthy posts explaining that no, the Tiger was actually quite vulnerable to larger anti-tank weapons, and it was horrendously prone to spalling - you didn't need to penetrate a Tiger to do awful things to the interior mechanisms and crew. Most reports of Tigers being nigh-invulnerable seem to come from Allied forces not equipped to fight heavy tanks at all and unreliable German reports. Hey I never said the reports were reliable, just that's typically how they read Night10194 posted:They also only built 200 or so of them. Even if you believe the SS's report that it took 8 Shermans to destroy a Tiger II (The SS's reports should be taken with a grain of salt) we had like 40-100 Shermans per Tiger II. So yeah, gently caress the Tiger. The Tiger II really had no redeeming features whatsoever, Tiger I's occasionally did something before they got stuck on a rock. Tiger II's never managed to even get that far.
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Jan 3, 2015 03:38
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Also unlike the Tiger series I'm given to understand that the Panthers were actually pretty decent tanks if you could get over the drive failing constantly.
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Jan 3, 2015 03:40
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Strobe posted:The vehicles they fought having not-bombed-to-the-ground production facilities might also have something to do with it. That probably helped a bit too yes.
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Jan 3, 2015 03:50
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While historians love to bicker about what could have changed when to allow Germany to win WWII I think they can pretty much all agree that any point after invading the USSR is way too late.
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Jan 3, 2015 04:09
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Strobe posted:I think the final decision branch that ruined everything was Hitler deciding Stalingrad was more important than Moscow. I just can't see the Germans winning a war against the USSR, it's too drat big. Winning a war against the USSR and the Allies at the same time was never a thing that was going to happen. The instant the USSR got involved in the war the question was not if Germany would lose, but when and how many would die before they did. Cythereal posted:It's the same sort of thing that's been popping up over in the War in the Pacific thread, about what would have allowed Japan to win. The only real answer outside of increasingly absurd alternate history is "Don't attack the United States and maybe FDR won't get Congress to declare war on you." Yeah pretty much, I do wonder what really caused them to provoke the US into the war like that sometimes; it seems like such an objectively terrible decision.
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Jan 3, 2015 04:14
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Doesn't Yamamoto also have that quote attributed to him where he basically says that if he attacks the US he'll be able to do whatever he wants for a year and then the US will kick the poo poo out of him?
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Jan 3, 2015 04:29
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Speedball posted:So, was Set introducing mold into the concrete as it was being made, or did he sabotage the basic concrete formula in general? Because if it's the latter, I forsee a sequel to Wolfenstein: The New Order called "The Crumbling Reich" or something where massive concrete supercities are now shattering like stale cookies. WirelessPillow posted:He mentions that the wall cracks, destabilizes and that mold forms, so I can only assume he is messing with the formula in general. He's sabotaging the concrete being made at his camp by messing with the formula so that the concrete decays rapidly instead of being effectively impervious. I assume he's either messed with the concrete mixer equipment or is messing with things at the basic ingredients level to either introduce something to the concrete which destabilizes the result or to change the ratio of ingredients for the same result. Anya specifically notes that only the concrete coming from this camp is decaying, the uberconcrete made everywhere else is functioning exactly as intended. That's how they work out where Set is.
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Jan 3, 2015 06:30
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Yeah thanks to the US having stupid giant industrial capacity and no-one blowing it up for the length of the war any 'main' thing they made was going to be influential if only through sheer numbers. In the Sherman's case it was actually a decent tank too so that helped as well. Discussions about the worst tank would probably have to have the caveat that the tank had to have seen combat at least once because I'm pretty sure there were a number of utterly retarded tank ideas that were never actually fielded in war. I think someone down in New Zealand came up with a tank made out of corrugated tin. Neruz fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 06:49
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Lazyfire posted:Set suggested that even a slight change to the concrete mix made it useless, so for all we know he was holding a level down too long at his work station and loving up the concrete viability. Or he was spitting into it or something , I don't know. For something made on the scale you make concrete you would have to introduce a large amount of contaminant to successively modify the formula, but we're playing a game where the Nazis were winning the war in 1946 and conquered most of the world by 1960. Considering his aptitude with the machinery used I think its probably likely he hosed with the mixers slightly so they don't quite mix the right quantities of materials. The mixers seem pretty much automated with the addition of a person purely for the sake of giving prisoners something to do so I'd bet hes just messed with the machines. Cythereal posted:Also that the Sherman's highlights aren't sexy for a "best tank" argument - superior mobility, ease of maintenance and production, and mechanical reliability. Which is funny considering that 'ease of maintenance, production and mechanical reliability' are three of the most important aspects about a piece of equipment so long as the equipment is actually functional in its intended role. Neruz fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 06:57
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Double posting like a bawss.
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Jan 3, 2015 06:59
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Cythereal posted:Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that most American standouts for a "best weapon/vehicle in its type in WW2" competition are naval, with things like the Fletcher-class destroyer and the Iowa-class battleship - not terribly useful for ship to ship combat as it happened, but excelled at shore bombardment, flagship duties, and escorting carriers. Certainly better than any other battleship type in the war. Considering that most battleships were a complete waste of resources the competition for 'best battleship type in the war' can't be all that fierce.
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Jan 3, 2015 07:05
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David Copperfield posted:Nowadays we call that the AK-47 school of weapon design. And even today the AK-47 (with a few upgrades admittedly) is still a fine assault rifle. Yeah it's not fancy but it gets the job done and it's cheap as piss.
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Jan 3, 2015 07:16
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Night10194 posted:Of course, all of this overlooks the roll of automatic shotguns, energy rifles, and powered armor, which are critical to the world of modern combat in 1960. If it was possible for a human to fire a fully automatic shotgun without being sent flying by the recoil I bet it'd be useful for urban warfare applications. JackNapier posted:My Great Grandfather survived Stalingrad from the German side of things, after he came home, he never, ever was without water, according to my grandmother, the man was determined to make sure he always had water, then food Significant trauma tends to leave a mark on people it afflicts and there are few traumas more significant than starvation and dehydration; those two kick some really primal parts of the brain.
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Jan 3, 2015 07:45
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Jesus christ I want one of those. 'The barrel has teeth on it ... worst case scenario you can always poke someone with it and gently caress their poo poo up.' I love this guy 
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Jan 3, 2015 08:00
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But the Da'at Yichud aren't being depicted as industrial; they're being depicted as technologist. They're not concerned with large scale industry or anything like that, they just want to make cool poo poo because it makes them feel closer to god. They're venerating the act of creation itself on an individual level and scale. As fictional organizations go it's actually a pretty reasonable concept by the usual standards of things.
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Jan 3, 2015 11:53
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MShadowy posted:Considering that we're talking about Nazi's here, I'd expect the battleship to still be their main fighting ship, yeah. We don't really know a lot about the disposition of this AH's Kriegsmarine though; so far the only thing we've read that has anything to do with it was regarding half the American navy being sunk at the Battle of Leyte, which was pretty nonspecific except for a mention of U-boats. Still, if U-Boats themselves played as decisive a role as was implied I imagine the Nazi leadership probably weren't too impressed with carrier power; honeslt,y right now I'm wondering if we might see hilarious amounts of resources sunk into submarine battleships. Given the Da'at Yichud tech they had by that point I wouldn't be surprised at all if they came up with some sort of stealth booster for their subs and were able to ambush the crap out of the American carriers and then pincer the escorts with their heavy battleships. We may or may not find out what actually happened, though given that the next stop seems to be stealing a sub we stand a good chance of finding out. I wonder what Deathshead has done to submarines
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Jan 4, 2015 01:22
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I can think of dozens of ludicrous magical science things you could do to a sub to make it amazing so I'm really looking forward to finding out what the dev team went with.
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Jan 4, 2015 02:07
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