Minarchist posted:Straight, white, AND male? Feels good, man. It absolutely could, and frankly, much of privilege is something the average person-with-the-privilegia doesn't benefit from except in small ways. Like, you might have been able to get a better job through family connections because of whiteness, but probably not a really good job.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:24
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I have affluenza and you're triggering me.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:27
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Omi-Polari posted:Because gay people built their own communities, stood up for themselves, came out of the closet, and built a political power base. Because we learned to respect ourselves.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:30
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Space Whale posted:No, it's because I have money and I'm not seen as suspicious, but rather as trustworthy. I'm white, I don't have money, and I'm inherently trustworthy based on my skin color. I probably won't rob or rape you. You can even relax around me. You can even hand me your debit card and ask me to buy you things and here's the PIN, keep it secret, okay? It's a shame that I'm a Potential Rapist and a Misogynist Pig as well as an Oppressor based on the fact I'm kind of pale and have a dong. I just want to do good in this world. I'm not going to feel bad about things I didn't do or have no control over, however. Minarchist fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 06:32
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Casimir Radon posted:Not being completely hostile towards everyone else certainly helped. But it's also looking at people and not demanding they change. It's "we want our rights and we want to not be bothered." If you want to check your privilege or whatever, that's all on you. You're really missing out, is all, because we're having a great time being ourselves. And if someone says "I don't morally agree but I don't think we should deny them their rights" then that's okay as well. Here's where you can contribute a donation. As long as you're not actively oppressing us, then there's no real issue. A quiet surrender is an option. But a politics of incessant privilege checking would condemn those people. You can't simply surrender. You have to be mouthing all the same slogans and marching in lockstep. And be politicized in all aspects of your life. And now you can't be a good ally because you're heterosexual! So out you go! "Oh God, I'm so sorry. Thank you for calling me out..." It's ridiculous. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 06:33
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Casimir Radon posted:Not being completely hostile towards everyone else certainly helped. How quickly we forget that ACT UP supposedly shat all over churches...
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Dec 5, 2014 06:35
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Minarchist posted:I'm white, I don't have money, and I'm inherently trustworthy based on my skin color. I probably won't rob or rape you. You can can even relax around me. You can even hand me your debit card and ask me to buy you things and here's the PIN, keep it secret, okay? It's a shame that I'm a Potential Rapist and a Misogynist Pig as well as an Oppressor based on the fact I'm kind of pale and have a dong. Almost everyone would almost certainly not rob or rape me or anyone else. Almost everything we do wrong is because of emotional bullshit. But welp yeah like you say schrodinger's rapist even though RAINN and other actual authoritative agencies have said that most rapes are the result of acquaintances using power, pressure, and access to victims, not dating or "jumping out of the bushes." But my god my politicized, poisoned interactions on the basis of whatever I care about - gender, race, orientation, head mates, fursonas - are totally going to run roughshod over common loving sense and facts as well as we know them, by golly.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:37
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BTW if your car has loud door locks, lock them around old ladies and white teenagers. They glare at you  That'll totally take a stand and raise awareness about the futility of not locking your doors the second you put it in R or D, or worse, re-locking it around some random black guy going for a walk.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:38
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Space Whale posted:Almost everyone would almost certainly not rob or rape me or anyone else. Almost everything we do wrong is because of emotional bullshit. I'm going to say that the /pol/ guy is correct about people acting cultish about this, because I've witnessed it happen and it's disturbing to see. What's fascinating is that this is a cult without any central leadership. But anyways, a large part of cults is the use of fear of the outside world to control the membership and the lengthy litany of trusting no-one who isn't ideologically pure and as intersectional as possible is an excellent way to use fear. Trigger warnings as implemented are another nice tactic of control, too.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:43
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Effectronica posted:I'm going to say that the /pol/ guy is correct about people acting cultish about this, because I've witnessed it happen and it's disturbing to see. What's fascinating is that this is a cult without any central leadership. But anyways, a large part of cults is the use of fear of the outside world to control the membership and the lengthy litany of trusting no-one who isn't ideologically pure and as intersectional as possible is an excellent way to use fear. Trigger warnings as implemented are another nice tactic of control, too. I guess it's more like a penis panic, in that there are shared beliefs, hysteria (phalleria?) and other "AHMAGOD"  bullshit elements present, but it's more about being a dick with a common calling to feel like you're the morally correct, objectively superior person because of your victimhood, but that you're totally gonna win and be on top NO gently caress YOU DAD. Also instead of a hunt for a witch making your dick fall off it's more about a witch hunt for someone with wrongthink and bad opinions, let's go ruin their entire life and plunge their family into poverty and unemployment because they argued on twitter, I'm so triggered, the literally shakes, oh my god, my head mates are trying to kill each other. Or I guess the secret interlopers, like how radfems think transwomen are secret males out to sneak into michfest or whatever? To be less goony and be more serious for a brief moment, this is VERY culty to me. There's no leadership, no, but the ability for people to coalesce around ideas online means we have a different dynamic, where one isn't needed anymore. It's about shared needs. I think it's mostly influence and attention.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:50
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Effectronica posted:You're turning privilege into something meaningless by making it cover virtually everything. No, you're failing to understand how comprehensive of a concept it is.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:21
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Space Whale posted:To be less goony and be more serious for a brief moment, this is VERY culty to me. It's Orwellian. "Accept the latest Newspeak terms and our definitions of them or else you are a misogynist."
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Dec 5, 2014 07:24
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SedanChair posted:No, you're failing to understand how comprehensive of a concept it is. Prove that it's comprehensive.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:31
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Prove that it's comprehensive. What kind of proof would satisfy you?
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Dec 5, 2014 07:47
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Just a quick question: Those of you who are complaining about leftwing activists going on about privilege and being cult-like: are you white and male?
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Dec 5, 2014 07:47
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SedanChair posted:What kind of proof would satisfy you? I'd settle for 80 proof but 100+ if you got it.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:53
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How is the concept of privilege different from the concept of original sin?
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Dec 5, 2014 07:55
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-Troika- posted:How is the concept of privilege different from the concept of original sin? God is actually willing to forgive.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:58
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Animal-Mother posted:God is actually willing to forgive. If only you could goldmine a post 
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Dec 5, 2014 08:05
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Animal-Mother posted:God is actually willing to forgive. 
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Dec 5, 2014 08:08
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-Troika- posted:How is the concept of privilege different from the concept of original sin? Privilege is real.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:09
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-Troika- posted:If only you could goldmine a post It's a goddamn joke, before anybody wastes their time being mad.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:"Please don't talk about white privilege, it makes me uncomfortable to be reminded that my life is much better than other people's for no rational reason." middle and upper class coastal folks saying this to poor white appalachian folks or southern poor white trash (as I've seen that was the name they were called back in the day referred to in a few books) or goddamned okie sons of bitches are What's The Matter With Kansas, and why the places where socialism was once popular in america won't be again You do get that people who are lower class aren't going to be receptive to being told they're privileged by people who live way far away and don't know their local situations, right? Rodatose fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 08:20
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Rodatose posted:middle and upper class coastal folks saying this to poor southern or appalachian folks or goddamned okie sons of bitches are What's The Matter With Kansas, and why the places where socialism was once popular in america won't be again Yeah, they really need to check their privilege. Animal-Mother posted:It's a goddamn joke, before anybody wastes their time being mad. He sure drank it up though, didn't he.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:22
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Animal-Mother posted:It's a goddamn joke, before anybody wastes their time being mad. It was a good goddamn joke.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:31
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SedanChair posted:He sure drank it up though, didn't he. Yeah but watching anime made him love guns, so 
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Dec 5, 2014 08:32
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SedanChair posted:Yeah, they really need to check their privilege.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:34
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Privilege theory is pretty drat unmarxist so its a mystery to me that the 'radical left' is now mostly defined by it instead of rejecting it
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Dec 5, 2014 08:35
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I would love for you to elaborate on that.Omi-Polari posted:And then, magically across the land, there was no more racism. You know what isn't magical? Simpletons bitching about poo poo being hard.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:38
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SedanChair posted:So LGBT folks talked about their experiences and engaged in activism and built communities, and straight people educated themselves and became allies. That's really all checking your privilege is. There's a difference between checking your privilege (passive awareness) and restorative justice or a truth and reconciliation council (active collaboration/reconstruction) People are soured on it because the attitude around its use holds that passive awareness-raising is all the action you need (go back to my earlier post about kony 2012). Also because it holds the notion that the Oppressor Class is the one who must act and they are the only ones who can fix everything through their magnanimity with a stroke of the pen or with a loving Live Aid. That takes responsibility and agency for action away from those who are trying to bring about the change.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:42
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SedanChair posted:You know what isn't magical? Simpletons bitching about poo poo being hard. Do the police, drug enforcers, arms industries and prison wardens, and the wealthy political lobbies that push these policies care one iota whether white people are aware of their privilege? 
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Dec 5, 2014 08:52
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e: ^^^ see belowRodatose posted:There's a difference between checking your privilege (passive awareness) and restorative justice or a truth and reconciliation council (active collaboration/reconstruction) There's no way to get to restorative justice without first having that awareness. And some people are going to be stuck at relative uselessness, at slacktivism or tumblr (or D&D) slapfights or what have you. But that doesn't indict the theory's usefulness at all. And if you have any ideas for turning dilettante college grad Americans into real activists with a fire in their belly, I'm literally all attention. If all people have to contribute is their own raised awareness, I'll take it.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:59
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Blue Star posted:Just a quick question: Does being white or male make you confuse rational behavior for cultism?
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Dec 5, 2014 09:02
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Animal-Mother posted:God is actually willing to forgive. It's funny because it's true.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:04
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SedanChair posted:There's no way to get to restorative justice without first having that awareness. And some people are going to be stuck at relative uselessness, at slacktivism or tumblr (or D&D) slapfights or what have you. But that doesn't indict the theory's usefulness at all. And if you have any ideas for turning dilettante college grad Americans into real activists with a fire in their belly, I'm literally all attention. I would rather that those who do not attempt to go out into society but only speak from a simulation of society not contribute to the process if their contributions are harmful and poison the well for others. Activists can promise security and to involve them in projects in a non-political manner in exchange for neutrality - basically guarantee that no matter what goes down, even in the case of an upturning of the social order, they will have a place in society where their abilities will be used in some way. Emphasize their importance, but also insist on the importance of a movement's presentation - its image has to be palatable to the public (compared to the alternatives) for its popular acceptance to occur. You call those in question "stuck at relative uselessness," but I consider those who are so far removed from experience that they can only give unworkable polemics to be an active detriment to a movement. Whenever someone who actually goes out and talks to people tries to talk an undecided or opposing person, they not only have to address the substantial points of their movement, but they have to address a bunch of planted misconceptions, too. They go at it going uphill, against someone whose thoughts have already been skewed by people who have gotten to them first and associated your Good Things with a whole bunch of divisive unpleasantness. Besides, those who are used to nice things from having a middle class functionary position and are not ready to give them up are more of a threat than an asset, because they may side with a fascist or single-party state capitalist politburo-type organization in times of a coup if it means they can stay in a bubble. Especially if they are susceptible to emotional propaganda that convinces them to put their anger to use against undesireables. (I'm thinking of Umberto Eco's Eternal Fascism when I take into mind that fascism comes from a frustrated middle class.) Thomas Todd posted:Yet our best trained, best educated, best equipped, best prepared troops refuse to fight. As a matter of fact... it's safe to say that they would rather switch than fight. Rodatose fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 10:43
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Do you really think that the problem that the gay rights movement faced was that people weren't aware of the power imbalance between gays and everyone else? Or do you think it was that homosexuality was widely viewed as a mental disorder on par with wanting to gently caress a goat? The reason that "awareness raising" is barely useful is because it completely lacks substance in the three areas that are most of the challenge in winning people over to any meaningful movement: Convincing people that the problem is actually a problem, convincing them that it's serious, and creating the responsibility of fixing it. Raising awareness without garnering support is at best useless and at worst counterproductive. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 10:47
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Most rhetoric around 'checking your privilege' or self flagellation about being white are more of a signaling mechanism that you are a better human being than an actual attempt at doing anything meaningful to improve the lives of oppressed people. Basically: http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/11/19/its-pretty-simple-really/ quote:“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project, perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more equitable, fair, and compassionate place. But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strata of post-collegiate, digitally-enabled children of privilege, who do not pursue that project as an end, but rather use it as a means with which to compete, socially and professionally, with each other. In that use, they value not speech or actions that actually result in a better world, but rather those that result in greater social reward, which in the digital world is obvious and explicit. That means that they prefer engagement that creates a) outrage and b) jokes, rather than engagement that leads to positive change. In this disregard for actual political success, they reveal their own privilege, as it’s only the privileged who could ever have so little regard for actual, material progress. As long as they are allowed to co-opt the movement for social justice for their own personal aggrandizement, the world will not improve, not for women, people of color, gay and transgender people, or the poor. If you want to do something good for oppressed people, go do it. If you are a wealthy (by global standards) person, the best way for you to do so is to donate a meaningful fraction of your income to a good charity, silently, every month. If instead, your goal is to feel good about how much better you are than the hoi polloi, post on twitter/message boards about privilege. Keep in mind, every single tweet and post you've ever made about privilege, every brilliant super burn which received 50 likes on twitter has done less to improve the life of a marginalized person than a 100 dollar donation to Doctors without Borders, and this is an empirical fact you cannot escape from. If you value the lives of poor people, work towards improving them. iFederico fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 11:49
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The last few pages of this thread have been a marvellous example of how much good identity politics and privilege theory have done for the right. I mean, they've just been a gift from God for the powers-that-be. Informed by what we've read here, lets run a thought experiment: *** Forty years ago an urban community is struggling with ever-increasing rent. There is a call for rent controls, leading to a community meeting. People are connected to the issue and feel strongly about it and so the first meeting is well attended by citizens across the political, economic and racial spectrum. Voices are heard, a strategy is formed and acted on. Even if the protest/letter-writing campaign/sit-in/movement comes to nothing, people at least got together and shared their mutual struggle in being forced to live under exploitative landlords. At the very worst, the city becomes aware that rent is a political issue, and worries about the tensions involved in ever-increasing prices. *** Six months from now an urban community is struggling with ever-increasing rent. There is a call for rent controls, leading to a community meeting. People are connected to the issue and feel strongly about it and so the first meeting is well attended by citizens across the political, economic and racial spectrum. The first action in the meeting is to inform everyone to be aware of their privilege around women, PoC and other minorities. Someone asks what does race have to do with anything, rent is high whether you are white or black. There are gasps from the academic bench, this person is informed they are a shitlord, the correct term is Person of Colour, they should learn what "intersectionality" means and by the way it is not my job to educate you. The bench, stunned by this shocking display of white privilege, realises that the meeting cannot continue until a correct vocabulary controls are drawn up and that everyone has had a chance to establish their preferred pronouns. To avoid "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining" a procedure is drafted to control who may speak at any given time. Whilst rent may affect everyone, due to intersectionality it doesn't affect everyone equally and those already oppressed must be given more time to be heard, a committee is founded to establish the oppression and privilege of everyone in the movement so time and authority can be controlled accordingly. Nobody comes to the second meeting. Rent goes up.
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Dec 5, 2014 12:07
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Fargo Fukes posted:The last few pages of this thread have been a marvellous example of how much good identity politics and privilege theory have done for the right. I mean, they've just been a gift from God for the powers-that-be. Informed by what we've read here, lets run a thought experiment: Chilling.
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Dec 5, 2014 12:10
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UP AND ADAM posted:Chilling. Do you have a counter-argument?
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