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Zeitgueist posted:Lots of frats encourage lovely behavior and reinforce it. You can do this with just about anything, though. It's a goofball meme
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Dec 5, 2014 00:19
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tbp posted:You can do this with just about anything, though. It's a goofball meme Yeah it's totally irrelevant to this particular situation why would I ever bring it up?
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Dec 5, 2014 00:28
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CommieGIR posted:For every Duke case, we have ten rape case slut shaming communities. Both are bad.
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Dec 5, 2014 00:44
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drilldo squirt posted:Both are bad. Yeah but they get talked about equally despite one being way more common than the other. I don't think anyone is arguing that false accusations are bad. They're saying that concern trolls won't shut up about them.
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Dec 5, 2014 00:51
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Casimir Radon posted:Oh boy, this will be fun until frat-goons come out of the woodwork to explain that no one in their stupid little club would ever rape anyone, and that everyone who isn't in a frat could benefit from joining one. I was never in a frat, but I lived in a dorm in Japan which was basically the cultural equivalent of one, except it was the poor kids. Like insane homoerotic intitiation binge drinking rituals and everything. A Japanese girl I knew talked about an incident, the details of which I have forgotten (it was a long time ago) in which some of the guys in the dorm sexually assaulted, possibly tried to rape her. I didn't believe it at first. Then I started hearing other stories about guys (and occasionally witnessing things) in that dorm unrelated to her incident that made me think "nope, that for sure happened." It isn't that frats are toxic cultures, it's that that TYPE of culture is toxic. See also: the US military, with its own masculine in-groups, initiations, and sexual assault problems.
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Dec 5, 2014 00:59
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Zeitgueist posted:Lots of frats encourage lovely behavior and reinforce it. This is not about rape, it is about Frat Rights  VideoTapir posted:It isn't that frats are toxic cultures, it's that that TYPE of culture is toxic. See also: the US military, with its own masculine in-groups, initiations, and sexual assault problems. 
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Dec 5, 2014 01:01
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:This is not about rape, it is about Frat Rights Frat culture is rape culture! Here's one of those rapey white frat boys here! 
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Dec 5, 2014 01:12
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spacetoaster posted:Frat culture is rape culture! Wait are you using Clinton mock the idea, or is that  Hard to tell in this thread
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Dec 5, 2014 01:14
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CommieGIR posted:For every Duke case, we have ten rape case slut shaming communities. This particular claim is quite extraordinary though, and requires more evidence than a typical date rape. If the girl would have said that a guy handed her a drink and she woke up the next morning with her pants off, all things being equal I'm probably buying her story, even if there was no drug test, no physical evidence, and it ends up being a he said she said where no one's going to jail. She's claiming she was a victim of a violent physical beatdown followed by a gangrape from over 7 guys in a frathouse, and that this is a common rite of initiation. I'm sorry, but I'm going to start out from a default position of not believing that story without more solid evidence than her word, and if you think its a likely story that happens on campuses around the country, I think you are a bit too cynical. One or two weird loners? Sure. A roving gang of criminals? OK. 7+ frat guys in a UVA frat? I really doubt it. Northjayhawk fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 01:58
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Northjayhawk posted:I'm sorry, but I'm going to start out from a default position of not believing that story Why exactly is this the "default position" because holy gently caress.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:02
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Northjayhawk posted:This particular claim is quite extraordinary though, and requires more evidence than a typical date rape. If the girl would have said that a guy handed her a drink and she woke up the next morning with her pants off, all things being equal I'm probably buying her story, even if there was no drug test, no physical evidence, and it ends up being a he said she said where no one's going to jail. And one person making up a rape case has what bearing on all the perfectly real and validated ones? Outside of smearing real rape victims? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 02:02
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archangelwar posted:Why exactly is this the "default position" because holy gently caress. Innocent until proven guilty?
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Dec 5, 2014 02:04
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archangelwar posted:Why exactly is this the "default position" because holy gently caress. Probability, basically. First of all, its going to be a lot easier to get a girl drunk or drug her than to beat her down. The risk of being caught goes way up when a rapist tries that. It happens, but its a factor that adds into the unlikeliness. Second, 7-9 guys. Yeah, that is very unlikely. Could it happen? Eh, sure I guess, but we're talking war-torn 3rd world poo poo here, not a frat on an American Campus in the 2010's. Third, this is some kind of annual tradition. This is almost impossible. As I mentioned earlier, someone would have blown the whistle by now. If you tell me that a girl was drugged and woke up with a guy on top of her, I'll probably believe that because it happens quite often, but when you add these wild sensational details of violence, numbers, and tradition, it just looks like bullshit to me absent any kind of solid evidence.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:07
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drilldo squirt posted:Innocent until proven guilty? This isn't a court of law and you don't have to convict a person just because you believe someone's story.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:09
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archangelwar posted:Why exactly is this the "default position" because holy gently caress. A good reason is that the article identifies one of the perpetrators almost to the point of linking to his Facebook profile, yet nobody has contacted/doxxed him yet. The incident as described would involve many people, and even more people who didn't participate, but would be able to verify parts of the story.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:11
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Northjayhawk posted:One or two weird loners? Sure. A roving gang of criminals? OK. 7+ frat guys in a UVA frat? I really doubt it. Why are the first two options somehow more believable than the third?
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Dec 5, 2014 02:16
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archangelwar posted:1. is highly persuasive if true. My assumption was that he was on the swim team or something, and the details were tweaked by the victim or author to make identifying anyone harder.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:21
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on the left posted:A good reason is that the article identifies one of the perpetrators almost to the point of linking to his Facebook profile, yet nobody has contacted/doxxed him yet. The incident as described would involve many people, and even more people who didn't participate, but would be able to verify parts of the story. And you think that reason is because he's innocent? Because innocent people have never been doxxed?
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Dec 5, 2014 02:22
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on the left posted:A good reason is that the article identifies one of the perpetrators almost to the point of linking to his Facebook profile, yet nobody has contacted/doxxed him yet. The incident as described would involve many people, and even more people who didn't participate, but would be able to verify parts of the story. Another reason to be skeptical is that it almost seems carefully tailored to satisfy all my disgust and annoyance I have with the greek system. Not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people think that the Greek system is not just outdated and useless, its probably now more harm than good. So, this amazing story of a girl getting hustled upstairs, violently beaten down, then ritually raped by a gang of morons reads like fiction delivered to a receptive audience, but there are so many details in the story that are unlikely, starting with being on broken glass raped for 3 hours without being severely sliced up to the point of needing to go to a hospital. It just feels like people desperately want this to be true, because gently caress the frats.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:25
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archangelwar posted:And you think that reason is because he's innocent? Because innocent people have never been doxxed? Based on the rumor that there was nobody who worked at the aquatic center from that frat in the entire year, I think it's because the person was made up. Northjayhawk posted:Another reason to be skeptical is that it almost seems carefully tailored to satisfy all my disgust and annoyance I have with the greek system. Not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people think that the Greek system is not just outdated and useless, its probably now more harm than good. So, this amazing story of a girl getting hustled upstairs, violently beaten down, then ritually raped by a gang of morons reads like fiction delivered to a receptive audience, but there are so many details in the story that are unlikely, starting with being on broken glass raped for 3 hours without being severely sliced up to the point of needing to go to a hospital. One of the articles I read pointed out how the author uses glass multiple times to represent the shattering of innocence. The article is basically journalistic fan fiction, which before anyone crucifies me, is separate from the actual incident. The journalist could have simply taken extreme artistic liberties to juice up the story. on the left fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 02:25
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VideoTapir posted:Why are the first two options somehow more believable than the third? quote:Caitlin Flanagan, who did an investigation into bad behavior at fraternities for the Atlantic, emailed us: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/sabrina_rubin_erdely_uva_why_didn_t_a_rolling_stone_writer_talk_to_the_alleged.2.html
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Dec 5, 2014 02:27
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Foma posted:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/sabrina_rubin_erdely_uva_why_didn_t_a_rolling_stone_writer_talk_to_the_alleged.2.html Yeah, Caitlin's studies sort of crystalize why I'm having such a hard time believing this. Jackie's story is not literally impossible, but it seems so very unlikely. Rapists generally come in 2 categories: crazy psychos who are willing to use violence and rape a conscious woman (rare) or cowards who might rape someone who is unconscious because they think they might be able to get away with it (much more common). Violent forceable rape is almost always one on one. Gang rapes are almost always with a drugged or blacked-out woman who might not know who did it. Violent gang rapes, especially by a large group of men who are not poor or criminals, is very rare. Its hard to imagine just randomly happening on that perfect mix of violent psychos who don't seem to care much about being caught.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:42
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That same exact fraternity had a case of gang rape in the 80s, which was also considered by many to be too unbelievable, until one of the rapists wrote an apology letter 20 years later. Now, Liz Seccuro's case only involved 3, not 7 people, but I don't know the point at which something like this goes from believable to not. Now, here's the thing: "Jackie" has an existence outside of this story. She has published anonymously at the student newspaper since then. She is known by Eramo, the UVA administrator (so much so that she wrote a column defending Eramo from the Rolling Stone story). Jackie also claims that she told Eramo the identity of the attackers. The friends that were with her that night were contacted by the reporter, and then changed their minds. Jackie's other friends confirmed both that the story told to the reporter is consistent with what she told them, and that the things she went through later (dropping classes, etc.) were true. In other words, these people exist and there is pretty good evidence that something happened at some point one year ago when "Jackie" decided to tell her story to Eramo. We, of course, cannot know if it was rape, and there are many things that seem sensationalized in the story. Maybe Jackie had a mental breakdown one year ago and imagined the whole thing, or decided to appropriate Liz Seccuro's story, I don't know. But there is a lot more in the story than just one person's allegations. Certainly more than a comment on a blog post. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 03:00
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quote:Jackie's other friends confirmed both that the story told to the reporter is consistent with what she told them, and that the things she went through later (dropping classes, etc.) were true. In other words, these people exist and there is pretty good evidence that something happened at some point one year ago when "Jackie" decided to tell her story to Eramo. We, of course, cannot know if it was rape, and there are many things that seem sensationalized in the story. Maybe Jackie had a mental breakdown one year ago and imagined the whole thing, I don't know. But there is a lot more in the story than just one person's allegations. Certainly more than a comment on a blog post. I honestly think she probably was raped, but in different circumstances that don't seem lifted from a Tom Wolfe novel.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:04
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on the left posted:Based on the rumor that there was nobody who worked at the aquatic center from that frat in the entire year, I think it's because the person was made up. Maybe he was just a volunteer? Lifeguards often are. Maybe he was no officially affiliated with the frat at the time since rush was in Spring? Or maybe the rumor is false? I mean, it is not like I believe the story 100% because memory fades and traumatic events often cause people to fill in blanks or make false associations, so it is likely that the recollection of the event is tainted. But you seem to really want the story to be fake, and have not touched on the major point which is the failing of the institutions in place to protect us to do an adequate job, even if the story was fake. It is one thing if you think the story is a bit much, but you seem invested in stretching rumors to outright reject it.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:12
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archangelwar posted:Maybe he was just a volunteer? Lifeguards often are. Maybe he was no officially affiliated with the frat at the time since rush was in Spring? Or maybe the rumor is false? How could she be misled about the employment of the lifeguard or forget the specifics of who he is? From the third paragraph of the Rolling Stone article: quote:She and Drew had met while working lifeguard shifts together at the university pool
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Dec 5, 2014 03:19
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on the left posted:How could she be misled about the employment of the lifeguard or forget the specifics of who he is? From the third paragraph of the Rolling Stone article: quote:Maybe he was just a volunteer? Lifeguards often are. Maybe he was no officially affiliated with the frat at the time since rush was in Spring? Or maybe the rumor is false?
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Dec 5, 2014 03:24
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But don't you know, anonymous internet commenters are more reliable than journalists who presumably do fact-checking?
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Dec 5, 2014 03:28
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tbp posted:I don't think there's anything wrong with fraternities or sororities. It's the people in them loving up that should be in trouble not the concept as a whole. Gender segregated social organizations inherently promote patriarchy. They have no place at a university. Maybe fraternities would give more of a poo poo about rape if their membership included women.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:32
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Who volunteers to be a lifeguard? Also, as I mentioned before, there's a simple explanation for why this person is so specifically described, yet remains a ghost and uncontacted by the numerous journalists trying to fact-check the article.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:32
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CommieGIR posted:And one person making up a rape case has what bearing on all the perfectly real and validated ones? And one person making up a kidnapping case has what bearing on all the perfectly real and validated ones? Susan Smith and Andrea Yates may not have been telling the truth, but anyone who refuses to discuss the problem of black criminals stealing white children is the real racist and is just smearing real victims. Just like one person making up an espionage case has what bearing on the rootless cosmopolitan traitors within the Third Republic? Are you really going to smear the Le Grande Armee just because Dreyfus turned out to be innocent?
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Dec 5, 2014 03:32
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on the left posted:Who volunteers to be a lifeguard? Jesus christ I thought your ignorance surrounding how frats operate was simple ignorance but this just has to be willful.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:36
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The Insect Court posted:And one person making up a kidnapping case has what bearing on all the perfectly real and validated ones? Susan Smith and Andrea Yates may not have been telling the truth, but anyone who refuses to discuss the problem of black criminals stealing white children is the real racist and is just smearing real victims. ......you have got to be loving kidding
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Dec 5, 2014 03:37
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archangelwar posted:Jesus christ I thought your ignorance surrounding how frats operate was simple ignorance but this just has to be willful. The real ignorance is if you were ever dumb enough to work for free.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:39
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on the left posted:Who volunteers to be a lifeguard? Noble people and creeps who want to ogle girls in swimsuits and maybe grope a few that needed saving.
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Dec 5, 2014 03:48
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CommieGIR posted:......you have got to be loving kidding You're right, I was joking. After all, anybody who tries to insist that the fact an allegation of a horrific crime is entirely fabricated is irrelevant to its use as an example would have to be a complete loving moron.
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Dec 5, 2014 04:05
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Northjayhawk posted:This particular claim is quite extraordinary though, and requires more evidence than a typical date rape. If the girl would have said that a guy handed her a drink and she woke up the next morning with her pants off, all things being equal I'm probably buying her story, even if there was no drug test, no physical evidence, and it ends up being a he said she said where no one's going to jail. One of the frats at a university in my city had an email leaked with literal instructions on how to commit date-rape at parties so i'm not sure why this is so beyond the pale
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Dec 5, 2014 04:14
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joepinetree posted:That same exact fraternity had a case of gang rape in the 80s, which was also considered by many to be too unbelievable, until one of the rapists wrote an apology letter 20 years later. Now, Liz Seccuro's case only involved 3, not 7 people, but I don't know the point at which something like this goes from believable to not. I think the most likely story is that one, possibly two guys raped her while she was in a drunken or drugged stupor, where she was vaguely sort of aware of what was happening, but not able to resist, and in her trauma, her mind filled in the blanks. She could even honestly believe the story she told, but its more likely to be the normal type of campus rape of an almost-unconscious woman.
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Dec 5, 2014 04:14
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Northjayhawk posted:I think the most likely story is that one, possibly two guys raped her while she was in a drunken or drugged stupor, where she was vaguely sort of aware of what was happening, but not able to resist, and in her trauma, her mind filled in the blanks. She could even honestly believe the story she told, but its more likely to be the normal type of campus rape of an almost-unconscious woman. Still rape. Semantics or not.
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Dec 5, 2014 04:16
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slogsdon posted:One of the frats at a university in my city had an email leaked with literal instructions on how to commit date-rape at parties so i'm not sure why this is so beyond the pale The story is that she was stone cold sober and 7-9 guys violently beat her down and gang raped her. That simply does not happen very often, at all to the point where you need some evidence to believe it. The reason why is its too easy to get caught in a violent rape attempt and most rapists are cowards who don't want to go to jail. Give me one violent rapist or a drugged woman and lots of guys, and I can believe it. Northjayhawk fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 04:17
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