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Since the subject of practical effects vs. CGI came up, I just rewatched the first Terminator, and while all the animatronic effects looked great, several of the stop motion shots of the Terminator endoskeleton near the end were absolutely cringeworthy. Especially the blue screen shot where Sarah and Kyle were closing a door while the Terminator approached, which combined both bad compositing and incredibly jerky stop motion. Even in 1984, there is no way that looked good. So it goes to show you that fake looking special effects didn't start with the CGI era. I also think that people sometimes underappreciate how much freedom CGI offers. It is very, very hard to make a full-scale anamatronic, puppet, or stop motion effect walk in a way that looks natural. So in the climax of the original Terminator, they gave the endoskeleton a limp and kept full body shots to a minimum, and as I said previously even that looked fake at times. On a side note, having lightning shoot out when the Terminator got crushed by the hydraulic press was just silly. Having it start sparking would be cool, but bolts of lightning flying everywhere like it was a tesla coil? Come on. Full Battle Rattle posted:If only cameron had left the 'good future' ending in Judgement Day. It wouldn't have made a difference. T1 was very clearly intended to be a standalone film, and Reese even says at one point, "Nobody goes home. Nobody else comes through. It's just him and me." Then Terminator 2 happened and either there was something he didn't know or the future got changed somehow. Anything could have been written around. INH5 fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 06:09
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I wish they'd kept the deleted moment from the end of T1 that set up T2. Y'know, the one where some Cyberdyne guys have the Terminator arm confiscated for research.
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Dec 7, 2014 08:37
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INH5 posted:It wouldn't have made a difference. T1 was very clearly intended to be a standalone film, and Reese even says at one point, "Nobody goes home. Nobody else comes through. It's just him and me." Then Terminator 2 happened and either there was something he didn't know or the future got changed somehow. Anything could have been written around. I was being facetious (hard to tell, I know). Once there's a second terminator sent back it goes from "It was a last ditch effort by the machines to stave off defeat" to "apparently they can use time travel as much as they want."
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Dec 7, 2014 08:43
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I almost wonder if it's a coincidence that they got Nick Stahl to replace Edward Furlong, and then Stahl turned out to be a burnout druggie as well. Though, I think Stahl's drug problems are linked with mental illness as well. I kinda phrased my problems with T3 Arnie badly. Aside from his emotional performance, I'd love it if the character would shed some of the toothless T2 'protector' role and the TX reprogramming it had made it truly dangerous. Just a grab back to the more horror-like aspects the first movie had. None of that "grab the human in my bonecrushing claws and throw him around" poo poo, as others have pointed out, either.
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Dec 7, 2014 09:02
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One thing is that despite the very short cameo of Arnie in Salvation, the Arnold-model Terminator has sort of went from his initial and iconic appearance as the boogieman of the franchise to becoming a heroic character in nearly every other film he has appeared in in that franchise. About the only film series I can sort of say that about is maybe something like the Puppet Master or Prophecy films where the antagonists eventually becomes the heroic protector figures. It's sort of interesting that the talk of T2 at one point having Arnold in dual roles as a good and bad Terminator at one point hasn't been picked up in more recent films. I know there's the hint in the Genesys trailer of a such a meeting, but a full-on entire movie using a bunch of tricks to have an 1980s Arnold and modern-day Arnold spending the film stalking each other and the Connors, or two identical Arnolds, seems like it could generate a lot of interest. After watching GotG, I really think Bautista needs to get cast in a Termintor role, though.
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Dec 7, 2014 09:23
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Full Battle Rattle posted:I was being facetious (hard to tell, I know). Once there's a second terminator sent back it goes from "It was a last ditch effort by the machines to stave off defeat" to "apparently they can use time travel as much as they want." In T2 (the script), I think it was 'We sent Kyle back, then the others went back and then we blew up the time machine' or something like that.
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Dec 7, 2014 09:55
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With so much of T1, T2, T3 all set in the present, there's not a lot of development of what is going on in the future, though. One theory I've heard (that obviously/probably doesn't hold water) is that in every 'loop', both the machines and humans are still only sending back 'one' person to a specific time and place, but due to the changing timelines they're choosing different parameters for each iteration of the timeline, but every timelines efforts still show up in the past.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:11
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Milky Moor posted:In T2 (the script), I think it was 'We sent Kyle back, then the others went back and then we blew up the time machine' or something like that. But that raises more questions than it answers. Okay, so Arny goes back, then Kyle goes back, then Robert Patrick bursts into the room and hops in the time machine and so they send the reprogrammed Terminator in after him... The reprogrammed Terminator who was standing there the whole time, without anyone questioning why John didn't want to send it in to rescue his mother? Don't get me wrong, Terminator 2 is a great movie, but trying to reconcile it with the continuity of its predecessor creates a lot of headaches. Though the TSCC characterization of future!John as a lying, secretive dick did go a long way towards answering these sorts of questions in that particular continuity.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:25
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I think the novelization of Terminator 2 covers how all the different terminators/Kyle Reece got sent back in time (I haven't read the book in over a decade so I might be wrong here): The Resistance storm the time travel compound just as the first terminator is sent back. Quickly prep Kyle and send him back to the same time. Right after Kyle is sent back, the T-1000 activates and is sent back in time (same time machine? different one? can't remember). The Resistance panic, grab a T-800 off the shelf, program it up and send it back after the T-1000. The whole thing takes maybe an hour? With the longest part being the re-programming of the T-800.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:30
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GoldStandardConure posted:I think the novelization of Terminator 2 covers how all the different terminators/Kyle Reece got sent back in time (I haven't read the book in over a decade so I might be wrong here): I guess that makes some sort of sense, though the fact that these sorts of narrative contortions are required to reconcile the two stories does not suggest a well maintained continuity. And this is without even touching on the giant mess of how exactly does time travel work in this universe, and if time travel changes the past* who was the father of the John Conner that sent Kyle Reese back "the first time around," and oh no I've gone cross-eyed. But these kinds of questions actually make me a bit more interested in seeing Terminator Genysis, because further messing around with time travel in a continuity this tangled can only lead to cool stuff if it's done well, or a hilarious trainwreck if it's done badly. * And for the record, T3's "Judgment Day is inevitable" doesn't fix anything. To quote a semi-acquaintance of mine, "if you can delay it you can stop it, the only question is how."
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Dec 7, 2014 10:51
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Did anyone read S.M. Stirling's T2 sequel novel? I thought that was pretty good and had a neat evil arnie vs. good arnie scenario. Basically John and Sarah are in hiding in Paraguay. John's managed to get himself into a local military college and Sarah's running a ranch somehow?  A legendary Austrian special forces soldier/super spy retires and buys the neighboring ranch. Hilarious misunderstandings ensue and then terminators attack sending them on the run together. It turns out that Skynet chose to base the human template of the original T-800 on this guy as residual influence from its main programmer, a neo-nazi who used to read Mein Kamph to his baby AI. Or maybe it was an ironic gently caress you to his programmer to twist the knife of betrayal further? It's been so long since I read it that I can't remember. Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 11:07
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Having read this thread and the one in the Matrix trilogy, I propose a new continuity: Terminator Terminator 2 The Matrix With the latter the ultimate consequence of stopping Judgement Day as it originally happened.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:48
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You're saying every new timeline will have worse sequels?
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Dec 7, 2014 12:02
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Alhazred posted:That's an odd thing to be proud of. Oh, you think that's something, I could probably recite most of the Alien Quad/Anthology BTS documentaries.  I used to be super into special features as a kid, OK?
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Dec 7, 2014 12:08
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Think of it as the universe shunting off the effects of patadoxes.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:08
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INH5 posted:I guess that makes some sort of sense, though the fact that these sorts of narrative contortions are required to reconcile the two stories does not suggest a well maintained continuity. I've literally never understood this criticism of time travel. John Connor was always fathered by Reese because Reese always went back in time. Nothing was ever really changed. The whole criticism that there must be an original timeline where John had no father (what) is purely because we see the film from an outside perspective, I guess? It only gets confusing when you bring T2, T3, T4 and such into the mix.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:13
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Also, TSCC was legitimately good and could have been great if it hadn't been caught in the writer's strike. It did have some big problems though. It's interesting because the series had a fair few of the people being T3 in it and it feels like they took a lot of the ideas from T3 and made them better and more realized.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:14
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Milky Moor posted:I've literally never understood this criticism of time travel. John Connor was always fathered by Reese because Reese always went back in time. Nothing was ever really changed. The whole criticism that there must be an original timeline where John had no father (what) is purely because we see the film from an outside perspective, I guess? I was talking specifically about T2 and the problems its story creates in regards to reconciling it with T1. T1 by itself has consistent time travel rules. It's the other parts of the franchise that bring up awkward questions. A lot of which goes back to the original movie being written without any intention of ever creating sequels.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:31
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INH5 posted:I was talking specifically about T2 and the problems its story creates in regards to reconciling it with T1. T1 by itself has consistent time travel rules. It's the other parts of the franchise that bring up awkward questions. A lot of which goes back to the original movie being written without any intention of ever creating sequels. True enough. Can someone answer me why the Terminator franchise is weird with legal stuff? Like how TSCC could basically use everything except T-800s and the word 'Terminator' in character dialogue?
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Dec 7, 2014 12:33
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It's pretty funny how 1, 2 and 3 completely disagree on if you can change the timeline or not, in various ways.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:34
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Well might as well take the opportunity to go over why Terminator 1 & 2 were so loving great. Terminator 1 Why is the first Terminator 1 so great? No really, why is this movie good? On paper this should have been a loving disaster. You got James Cameron the guy who's filmography so far is Pirhana II and Xenogenesis and his big idea for a film is a time travel movie where two guys, one soldier and one robot, is sent back in time to change the future. The twist is that unlike most time travel movies, this one has the hero trying to preserve the apocalyptic future and avoid a bigger nightmare. Oh and the big villain is a robot sent back in time who barely talks and has no cool future weapons or anything. He's just a robot who for budget purposes is going to be hidden under human skin. Oh and it get's better. Cameron rejected the guy from Conan: The Barbarian for the lead role even though it made like a 100 million dollars. Better, the guy is already loving with Cameron as his contract means production is going to be delayed by 6 months because Arnold has to go and do Conan: The Destroyer first. Some skinny guy who's best work to date was "The Fan" is playing the lead, and some unknown girl is playing the female lead... and rumor has it she's getting the job because Cameron already has the hots for her. Somehow, someone in Hollywood believed in this guy and threw him a pittance of 6.4 million to make the movie. You think about it this way, and you wonder how the gently caress did Cameron pull this off? Hell how did he pull it off?! Well first of all, Cameron sold us on the idea of Terminator. We see that the Terminator is big, he has no problem with casually killing people provided it helps him achieve his goal, he's smart, the main character's can't seem to meaningfully hurt him, we are shown that even in the future Terminators just slaughter people and we don't see the Terminator in the Future being stopped, he can change his voice, he exploits human weakness, an entire Police Department of cops couldn't stop him, and even when you think they've finally killed the bastard after Reese had to kamikaze himself into him... he still keeps coming after Sarah even without his lower half. More then that though, Cameron pushes the idea emphasis that the Terminator is not human. The Terminator doesn't talk unless necessary, the Terminator only seems to sort of joke just before he kills someone (the gun shop owner, police station guard), Schwarzenegger doesn't move like a human at all. We see scenes where the Terminator will just slice off his skin as if it was meaningless, show no sense of pain, it's just repairing itself for it's mission. Heck even Schwarzenegger's accent works because it feels like the Terminator doesn't realize that an Austrian accent doesn't really fit LA in this time period. He sells us on this, and it works. Terminator 3 doesn't sell us on the T-X as a credible threat or even that it's real. People comment on how the T-X is too sexy and it's distracting, for me it's her ridiculous "future weapon". It has a built in plasma cannon that feels like it's way less effective than a shotgun. She can't seem to hit anything with it and it doesn't do anything like burn right through a car or something. Then it malfunctions and the next default weapon in her "Go Go Gadget Arm" is a flame thrower... a loving flame thrower that again can't hit or do anything. Worse she doesn't act like a robot. Watch Terminator and Schwarzenegger's performance, then her's back to back. You see Schwarzenegger goes out of his way to not act like a human, while she just acts like a person who's stone faced taking a stroll. Except when she makes distracting jokes and shows emotions. Like gently caress, what the hell was that whole scene where she tastes the blood and realizes "OMG it's John Conner, he's here. Skynet's gonna be so happy when I off him. Hurrah I am filled with joy and excitement". Honestly gently caress, the director puts specific attention to this... why? Just to humanize the Terminator for some reason and let the audience know how surprised the Terminator is that Conner is here. Yeah I guess it's a more advanced Terminator so it makes a sort of sense, but it kills a lot of the suspense in the movie. Anyways back to the original Terminator, the next thing Cameron nails is the atmosphere, and god it's amazing. The film was shot mostly at night and everything in the "present" setting is dark and gritty. We see Sarah Conner in a dead end job, the Terminator easily procures a massive cache of weapons just by shooting the shop keeper with his own gun, it feels like a world without hope or kindness. This would be a cliche if Cameron didn't let us get to know Reese. Reese is the genius of Cameron. He contrasts our lovely LA without hope... with a shittier future where everything is destroyed. He get's us to know Reese and we see that he's broken... he been a soldier his entire life and doesn't know anything else. His biggest relationship to date with a woman has been a picture of Sarah Conner that was given to him which he creeped on so much he decided to go back in time just to meet her... that's really loving creepy btw. Then there's the future itself, where we see people dying all the time and forced to live in bunkers beneath the rubble. The present is dark and lacks light, the future is shown to be even darker. Everything we see about that future is death and misery and pain where humanity is just barely holding on, where we are reduced to coachroaches. It's an amazing contrast and also sells us on the idea of John Conner, that the future is so horrible that humanity needed a messiah... and no Conner, well that means humanity would be finished. This is what Salvation completely missed. Terminator clearly established what the future was suppose to look like. Lots of rubble, humanity barely hanging on, skulls everywhere, and the machines having weapons that made sense. For some reason, the creators of Salvation figured they'd make a "realistic nuclear apocalypse setting" with "Terminator bikes" and giant harvester mech thingies and a humanity that was not broken or that desperate. In fact, the idea that somehow humanity had "rebel held territory" as opposed to "bunker that we hope Skynet hasn't found yet" just felt too hopeful. It didn't feel realistic, humanity didn't feel like it was just hanging on, and it really felt like a really crappy war movie that was based on an even worse anime. That's where Cameron scored well, he made the Terminator believable. Sarah Conner looks normal, she's pretty but she's not hollywood over the top pretty or over sexualized like you'd expect in an action movie like this. She looks like a normal person in extraordinary circumstances. Reese looks like a soldier and he acts like one who's gone through a nightmare. The only person that looks unrealistic in the movie is the Terminator himself, and he's suppose to stand out and look out of place because well... he's really a machine. It works in a way Terminator 3 and Salvation completely failed even though both movies had way better special effects. We can forgive things like the animetronic skeleton terminator that looks horrible, but by this point we are so sold on the movie we don't care. This is why Terminator succeeded, and it's what 3 and Salvation just couldn't replicate.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:39
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Milky Moor posted:I've literally never understood this criticism of time travel. John Connor was always fathered by Reese because Reese always went back in time. Nothing was ever really changed. The whole criticism that there must be an original timeline where John had no father (what) is purely because we see the film from an outside perspective, I guess? There are plenty of time travel stories where the characters within the story bring up the "it couldn't have happened that way in the original timeline" objection so I don't think it's something that's due to us being outside the film. There's no time line where he didn't have a father, but in the original he must have had a different one.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:52
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Charlz Guybon posted:There are plenty of time travel stories where the characters within the story bring up the "it couldn't have happened that way in the original timeline" objection so I don't think it's something that's due to us being outside the film. Yeah the only thing that was made important in Terminator 1 & 2 was that Sarah Conner had to have the messiah and the father was absent. Terminator 2 and 3, Conner never makes a big deal about his father or even how his father was from the future. It wasn't till Salvation where it was made clear that Kyle Reese had to be Conner's father or else he'd cease to exist.
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Dec 7, 2014 13:15
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Shadoer posted:Yeah the only thing that was made important in Terminator 1 & 2 was that Sarah Conner had to have the messiah and the father was absent. Terminator 2 and 3, Conner never makes a big deal about his father or even how his father was from the future. It wasn't till Salvation where it was made clear that Kyle Reese had to be Conner's father or else he'd cease to exist. They think that, but if the T-850 in T3 is correct in that the time stream is self correcting then I'm sure they're wrong and if Kyle is killed then John will just end up being fathered by the original guy.
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Dec 7, 2014 13:18
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Charlz Guybon posted:They think that, but if the T-850 in T3 is correct in that the time stream is self correcting then I'm sure they're wrong and if Kyle is killed then John will just end up being fathered by the original guy. Hmm that's an interesting point. So the timeline of Terminator would be like this Original Timeline 1. Sarah Conner get pregnant by absentee douchebag. Guy ditches her and she has her kid, John Conner. 2. John Conner lives a rough life made easier by his intelligence. He's a survivor and keeps going even when his mother dies in unspecified circumstances before judgment day. 3. Judgment Day occurs. 4. John Conner raises the Tech Com army, narrowly defeats Skynet. 5. As a last ditch effort, Skynet sends one lone Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Conner. Terminator 1 Timeline Changes - Judgement Day is accelerated because of the arm left over from the Terminator's remains. - John Conner is likely even more of a threat to Skynet because of all the insane survivalist training and information Sarah Conner has been providing him on the future. - A second Terminator is sent back in time, specifically targeting John Conner. - The resistance has been capturing and reprogramming Terminators to bolster it's ranks. Terminator 2: Judgment Day Timeline Changes - Judgment Day is postponed by a decade. - The war in the future now goes on past the defeat of Skynet in Cheyenne Mountain. Johj Conner is dead, he has kids doing stuff, the war is still ongoing but it's assumed Skynet is still losing. - Skynet is now software. - A 3rd Terminator is sent back in time, this time to kill John Conner's lieutenants. Terminator 3: Rise of the Machine Timeline Changes - Presumably it leads to the events of both Salvation & the upcoming movie Genysis. - Terminator technology is accelerated by Skynet in Salvation. - Skynet's ability to design effective robots has gone to poo poo in Salvation. - Genysis shows that several more Terminators have been sent back in time further altering everything.
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Dec 7, 2014 13:37
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My hope is that the new film spends as little time as possible trying to explain it's complicated chronology; hopefully, zero time. Leave that to the internet and focus on being a good movie. Where everything fits into the timeline is literally the least important factor.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:35
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ephori posted:My hope is that the new film spends as little time as possible trying to explain it's complicated chronology; hopefully, zero time. Leave that to the internet and focus on being a good movie. Where everything fits into the timeline is literally the least important factor. I actually agree with this, so long as it isn't a stand in for them not understanding how it fits together. Letting the audience figure it out for themselves is fine, but not understanding it when writing the script can lead to horrible, horrible plot holes.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:52
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The T-X was a terrible villain compared to Arnie/T1000. Her strength and abilities was whatever the script demanded at that moment in time. Salvation had a ton of potential, the intro and the T800 fight were great even if someone should only last a few seconds vs a T800 but the rest of the film has poor action sequences. It's not helped by the T600 being the only decent new Terminator design.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:12
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Shadoer posted:Reese is the genius of Cameron. He contrasts our lovely LA without hope... with a shittier future where everything is destroyed. He get's us to know Reese and we see that he's broken... he been a soldier his entire life and doesn't know anything else. His biggest relationship to date with a woman has been a picture of Sarah Conner that was given to him which he creeped on so much he decided to go back in time just to meet her... that's really loving creepy btw. A couple years ago Zack Whedon did a comic called Terminator 2029, focusing on Kyle's best friend Ben that calls this out. There's a scene where he sees Kyle staring at the photo, snatches it away and finds out who it is. Ben: How the hell did you get a picture of Sarah Connor? Kyle: John gave it to me. Ben: John Connor? All-powerful leader of the resistance, John Connor? When? Kyle: Years ago. *Ben just silently stares at him* Ben: He gave you a picture of his mom? Kyle: Yeah, hand it over. *Ben gives it back* Ben: That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:16
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Full Battle Rattle posted:I was being facetious (hard to tell, I know). Once there's a second terminator sent back it goes from "It was a last ditch effort by the machines to stave off defeat" to "apparently they can use time travel as much as they want." I think it's stated in T2 that they were both sent back at the same time by Skynet (and the resistance didn't find out about the T-1000 until Kyle had already been sent back). So it was still a last ditch effort. Genesys looks like it's going to be awful and it's cool how they just keep getting worse and worse. Hopefully it's bad in a way that makes it fun to watch. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 20:21
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To go back to last page, I'll offer my contrasting opinion - the T3 reprogramming scene was one of my favorite of the franchise. Arnold has been the good guy for so long that people forget he is just a robot following programming. And as easily as the resistance can reprogram this terminator, so can another terminator (if you could consider it being reprogrammed). And when John asks what his mission is right before his skull is about to be crushed, and tells Arnold he's about to fail his mission, Arnold just shuts himself down. It's an extreme measure but serves to remind us that his sole reason to exist is to follow his programming. Literally nothing else matters. It explains why he deceived them and lead them to the fallout shelter, and why once there he commits terminator suicide to carry out his mission. It harkens back to T1 when he cuts away his skin - nothing matters, his body and his survival doesn't matter, all that matters is carrying out his programming.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:42
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On the other hand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olCoTmcMpc8
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Dec 7, 2014 20:44
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A contradiction? In MY Terminator!? 
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Dec 7, 2014 20:56
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Nah I was saying that is more interesting than the T3 scene. And I guess it's not technically a contradiction since Cameron made one and some nobodies made the other. It's interesting to me how T3 looks better and better as they make more movies.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:57
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I watched the first Terminator last night. It's first time I've really just sat down and watched it without distractions. It's so good. Great world building and good characters. I also noticed all these little 'jokes' about the future and robots. -Sarah wears a Jetsons t-shirt -In the answering machine message she says 'It's like talking to a machine' -The night club is named "Tech Noir" There were a few others. I should have written them all down.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:59
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Dec 7, 2014 21:04
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Yeah that's basically the perfect name for that place. You've got the whole technology themes throughout the movie, it's a good name for an 80's L.A. night club, and it's where all the poo poo first goes down.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:06
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Kelp Plankton posted:My favorite part of Terminator 3 was cut from the movie. Yep, one of the best deleted scenes of all time. I haven't seen Salvation - and it seems this new Terminator is going to ignore it as well. Am I the only one who thinks a Terminator reboot/remake would be better than a convulted sequel. I would rather the whole franchise just restart than try to place where and how this part of the timeline was made. Also - if you haven't seen Breakdown (directed by Jonathan Mostow of T3) - go watch it. One of my favourite "average man gets put into one of the worst situations ever" kind of movie.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:42
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Yeah they really just need to totally reboot the whole drat thing instead of re-jiggering the time line yet again.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:44
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Or just not make any more because the story was completely (and well) told in the first two films. I think a Terminator reboot is the only film that would ever make me angry.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:47
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