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I'm sure we're all familiar with the concept of transgender individuals, although I'll be talking specifically about those currently suffering from gender dysphoria (or who will in some hypothetical future). The generally accepted treatment for gender dysphoria is rather serious. Lengthy hormone treatments, invasive surgery, and even then it's often not to the end point the sufferer would wish. But what if there was another way? What if there was, for example, a pill someone could take that would "reset" the brain's self-conceptualization, essentially fixing sexual dysmorphia not by changing the body but by changing the mind, causing it to see itself the way it is. Would making and developing such a drug be moral? Would taking it be acceptable? Now, imagine that the drug only worked in the formative years. On children, essentially. Would it be acceptable for parents of children experiencing gender dysphoria to give their child the drug?
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Dec 6, 2014 04:35
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GlyphGryph posted:Would making and developing such a drug be moral? Would taking it be acceptable? Would that be any different than giving your child meds to treat ADD or depression or etc? Is there anyone who would want to experience gender dysphoria?
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Dec 6, 2014 04:58
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wateroverfire posted:Would that be any different than giving your child meds to treat ADD or depression or etc? I can imagine people would be hesitant to take a drug that changes such a fundamental part of their identity. Remember, you're asking a person who personally identifies as a woman to take a pill that would make them feel as if they were a man. I know of people reticent to take anti-depression medication because they're afraid they'll lose some spark of who they are, and that seems comparatively cut and dried. The idea of such a massive personality shift from male to female sounds kind of terrifying. And then imagine you had parents forcing their children to take a drug that changes their personality and brain fundamentally against their will. I don't see how you can argue that merely producing the drug was unethical, though.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:09
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I think there'd be a market for it, just like there'd be a theoretical market for a sexual orientation pill. There's also the inherent problem of kids being unable to consent but considering suicide/prostitution/jail rates for transgendered people I'd be hard pressed to not want my kid to take it if they had gender dysphoria. Most of that comes from not wanting to see my kid suffer in the future from the problems that it'd cause. I'm going to go with okay to produce and take but the ethics involving it are a pretty massive beehive to kick.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:12
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I expect some trans people would love the idea because they just want the feeling to go away, and others would hate it because of the "spark of identity" reason given above. It's unlikely there'd be a monolithic reaction e: Oh right, the childhood-only caveat. Hrm, that certainly complicates things.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:18
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If it's a magical pill couldn't you just take a second one to change back to your original gender just as easily?
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Dec 6, 2014 05:29
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Can I, as a man, take this pill to become a woman so I can experience the miracle of child birth, than take it again the become a man?
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Dec 6, 2014 05:33
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That pill is the Red Pill (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2014 05:35
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what if as a dude i took the fem-to-dude pill and became a double dude, like, macho man randy savage
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Dec 6, 2014 05:36
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Does that include double dongs like that one dude? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2014 05:39
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Would you put your brain in a robot body? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2014 05:51
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spoon0042 posted:Would you put your brain in a robot body? hot (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2014 05:53
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What if I as a trans person wanted to have the power of flight instead of being trans, would this pill accomplish that?
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Dec 6, 2014 05:55
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spoon0042 posted:Would you put your brain in a robot body? If it was my actual brain so I could be assured it was me and not just a copy of me, absolutely
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Dec 6, 2014 05:56
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What if there was a magic pill that could stop people from caring about amputees?
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Dec 6, 2014 06:50
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Sharkie posted:What if there was a magic pill that could stop people from caring about amputees? You don't need a pill for that, it's just natural.
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Dec 6, 2014 07:12
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spoon0042 posted:Would you put your brain in a robot body?
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Dec 6, 2014 07:41
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GlyphGryph posted:Would making and developing such a drug be moral? Would taking it be acceptable? Why would it not be? Any moral judgement about 'making' something must necessarily be bound up in the process of making that thing - which we have no details about, because this is all hypothetical quote:Now, imagine that the drug only worked in the formative years. On children, essentially. Would it be acceptable for parents of children experiencing gender dysphoria to give their child the drug? That's different, and the base question is whether children have agency which can be violated by their parents. I think it's fairly well accepted here that something like gender dysphoria is not some kind of disease like the flu or whatever that can be avoided, so you cannot simply shrug the issue off as dealing with a medical problem.
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Dec 6, 2014 07:51
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for real though in terms of the childhood hypothetical i dont think it's possible to determine gender dysphoria until adulthood anyway because perception of gender roles is culturally established and requires an adult's understanding to truly express so the better solution is just to abandon the strict gender dichotomy in favor of a gender spectrum to encourage societal acceptance of trans people most people will fall heavily on one end or the other so why not cede the middle? i guess it's just tough for some to accept the idea of half male half female persons
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Dec 6, 2014 08:05
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Popular Thug Drink posted:for real though in terms of the childhood hypothetical i dont think it's possible to determine gender dysphoria until adulthood anyway because perception of gender roles is culturally established and requires an adult's understanding to truly express This isn't true. People report feeling gender dysphoria at a very young age. Popular Thug Drink posted:so the better solution is just to abandon the strict gender dichotomy in favor of a gender spectrum to encourage societal acceptance of trans people Though I support abandoning a strict gender dichotomy.
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Dec 6, 2014 08:41
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Speaking from a place of ignorance, I've always felt the main reason trans has been hard to accept by so many people who are otherwise rational is because most people dont feel like a gender. I personally remember voicing dissent against people for telling me i could or could not do things because of my gender when very young. This tells me that certain people are born with a certain type of intense self consciousness and insecurity that drives them to categorize themselves in society. if that is the case, then i feel "abandoning a strict gender dichotomy" will be about as effective as Victorian sexual mores were, and having these children do the equivalent of turning the female ankle into a sexual body part.
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Dec 6, 2014 08:56
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Hey what if we had a magic pill that could turn black kids white? Makes you think.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:15
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Can we just be perfectly clear: are we talking about people who suffer sex-specific body dysmorphia in the sense that they feel they have the 'wrong' genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics, or people who suffer from dysphoria related to gender roles, who feel that they are forced into adhering to sets of performative norms based on their appearance and/or biological sex that do not match their senses of self? I ask because transfolk are a very diverse bunch, and it is not only wrong but very confusing to conflate those who are unhappy with the fact that they were assigned a gender and therefore role from birth based on the fact that they had or didn't have a penis between their tiny legs, and those who are primarily interested in changing their bodies to suit an internal perception of self. There are transpeople who have absolutely no interest in changing their bodies but reject absolutely their assigned gender (or even the notion of gender itself)], and there are transpeople who do not have such a huge problem with gender but who feel extremely uncomfortable with the reproductive organs and sexual characteristics that are the result of their chromosomes, and will seek above all to change their bodies to alleviate the stress of being unable to present to the world as they see themselves in their minds' eyes. There is a growing proportion of this second group who are increasingly frustrated with the focus on gender within trans activism and theory, and some who are in favour of bringing back the word 'transsexual' (which has quite clearly fallen out of vogue) to complement and contrast with the term 'transgendered.' Not all transgendered people suffer from sex-specific body dysmorphia, nor would want to call themselves transsexual. But many do, and there are even some transfolk out their who are concerned very little with what set of gendered norms are applied to them by the outside world (these are typically very fiercely independent and unique people who don't give a single gently caress and can't be easily pigeonholed anyway) but who would do almost anything to alleviate the pain that goes with living in a body that is fundamentally unacceptable to their sense of self. I don't think all dysphoria related to gender would disappear even if everybody on earth took a magic pill that forced their brains to accept their bodies as true and correct representations of their identity. Perhaps all dysphoria specifically in relation to sex would go away, but this is where it's important to distinguish between sex-specific body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. I mean, I'm a cis dude who gets pissed off on a daily basis about the fact that people assume all sorts of stuff about me based on the fact that I'm a large human with a deep voice and facial hair. It pisses me off that just about everybody on the planet has to deal with this. It pisses me of that I participate in it. This is because I think gender is a fundamentally flawed idea that serves no real purpose and that humanity should disabuse itself of it as soon as possible. But it is extremely important to recognise that not all transpeople think this way, and equally important to acknowledge that many of the transpeople who are most in favour of smashing the entire gender binary system are also entirely comfortable with their bodies.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:42
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afeelgoodpoop posted:Speaking from a place of ignorance, I've always felt the main reason trans has been hard to accept by so many people who are otherwise rational is because most people dont feel like a gender. eh I don't feel a different height but why would I care if someone else wants to have surgery to become taller? Generally people don't care. I mean you can do largely anything to your body and while people may deride or laugh at you none of it is anywhere near as controversial as changing your gender or just being attracted to someone from your own gender. You can have so much cosmetic surgery or weirdo body mods that you appear like a completely different person but if you crossdress you may just be murdered if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Society at large clearly values gender more than other physical attributes and we probably shouldn't.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:43
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Anosmoman posted:eh I don't feel a different height but why would I care if someone else wants to have surgery to become taller? Generally people don't care. I mean you can do largely anything to your body and while people may deride or laugh at you none of it is anywhere near as controversial as changing your gender or just being attracted to someone from your own gender. You can have so much cosmetic surgery or weirdo body mods that you appear like a completely different person but if you crossdress you may just be murdered if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Society at large clearly values gender more than other physical attributes and we probably shouldn't. It always seemed to me the greatest cause in the discrepancy of violence has more to do with sexuality than gender. People already in-out-group eachother over the most petty of things. The added personal aspect of sexual feelings and potential feelings of emasculation of finding a same sex mimic attractive probably cause a potentially more intense feeling of hate. Everything else seems likes rationalizations or cultural inertia.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:21
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Anosmoman posted:eh I don't feel a different height but why would I care if someone else wants to have surgery to become taller? Generally people don't care. I mean you can do largely anything to your body and while people may deride or laugh at you none of it is anywhere near as controversial as changing your gender or just being attracted to someone from your own gender. You can have so much cosmetic surgery or weirdo body mods that you appear like a completely different person but if you crossdress you may just be murdered if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Society at large clearly values gender more than other physical attributes and we probably shouldn't. Truth. As long as you APPEAR to conform...
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Dec 6, 2014 11:07
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While I'm unsure of the wider morality one potential benefit of the pill would be regarding intersex babies. Parents have to choose a gender for an intersex child at a very young age and they can thus pick the wrong gender by accident. The pill could at least lock in the gender the parents chose and reduce the anguish the child feels as it develops as a person. Even then though I'm not sure how moral it is to match a child's personality to the arbitrary choice their parents made.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:24
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ReV VAdAUL posted:While I'm unsure of the wider morality one potential benefit of the pill would be regarding intersex babies. Parents have to choose a gender for an intersex child at a very young age and they can thus pick the wrong gender by accident. The pill could at least lock in the gender the parents chose and reduce the anguish the child feels as it develops as a person. I also see a multitude of problems with this. As an idealist, this is too idealistic.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:26
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MizPiz posted:Can I, as a man, take this pill to become a woman so I can experience the miracle of child birth, than take it again the become a man? Popular Thug Drink posted:for real though in terms of the childhood hypothetical i dont think it's possible to determine gender dysphoria until adulthood anyway because perception of gender roles is culturally established and requires an adult's understanding to truly express so the better solution is just to abandon the strict gender dichotomy in favor of a gender spectrum to encourage societal acceptance of trans people And yeah, it's (usually) something that is realized pretty young. GhostofJohnMuir posted:Hey what if we had a magic pill that could turn black kids white? Makes you think. To be honest, I'm not sure I've met anyone with the gender roles issue that identifies as trans? I've seen people identify as genderqueer who adopt that sort of position, but unless that adopting is triggered by an underlying dysphoria based on a mental mismatch with their physical body, the hypothetical pill wouldn't change anything about them.
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Dec 6, 2014 14:02
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Why spend our precious resources on these hypothetical magic pills? Rick Perry's free therapy camps that we already have today will set you straight.
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Dec 6, 2014 14:12
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Does this involve a genie? I'm not sure I'd want to be transdjinndered.
CheesyDog fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 14:17
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spoon0042 posted:Would you put your brain in a robot body? Does it have to be a human body and to what degree can I customize it? Like can I be a dragon with eight legs, angel and demon wings, and three cocks?
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Dec 6, 2014 20:52
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pretty sure there must be some manga about it OP Google "futa" and go from there, glad to contribute to this great thread (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2014 21:24
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Yeah but what if the pill backfires, and instead of curing the person's gender dysphoria, it merely triggers their secondary gender dysphoria and turns them into a furry blue gorilla? It's happened before!
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Dec 7, 2014 03:05
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Alternately, what if the pathology of gender dysphoria isn't in the person's brain, but rather in society's response to that person? And the magic pill only treats a surface symptom, leaving the disease to rage on unchecked within the body politic?
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Dec 7, 2014 03:08
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Alternately, what if the pathology of gender dysphoria isn't in the person's brain, but rather in society's response to that person? And the magic pill only treats a surface symptom, leaving the disease to rage on unchecked within the body politic? That this (I assume semi-ironic) suggestion will actually be true for some but not all transpeople was the crux of my previous post.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:23
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Smudgie Buggler posted:That this (I assume semi-ironic) suggestion will actually be true for some but not all transpeople was the crux of my previous post. Sure (and I agree with your post), but it seems like you weren't contesting the assumption that the OP made with respect to your other category of trans* person (the one who feels really bad about their body). The OP said that the pill would change a person's mind, "causing it to see itself the way it is." I have two problems with this assumption. First, it contradicts (my extremely limited understanding of) neuroscience, which says that the brain of someone with gender dysphoria is actually more similar to the brain of their preferred sex role. The brain DOES see itself the way that it is, and rebels against the body. If we view gender dysphoria as a disease, the brain isn't the unhealthy part, the body is - thus, it seems to me that we should focus on better surgery or hormone interventions as our ideal, instead of brain rearranging. Second, the hypothetical in the OP seems to place the burden of change on trans* people (or their parents), instead of on society as a whole. As a philosophical thing, I think that a just society does as much as possible to accommodate psychological difference, instead of forcing individuals to conform through medical treatment. This isn't always possible (people with severe depression should change their brain chemistry instead of committing suicide), but I think in the case of gender dysphoria (the kind you're talking about, where the person feels bad about their body) the onus is clearly on society. *** Rereading the OP to make this post, I realize that this assumption may have been made in good faith, and that the X-Men joke was perhaps unproductive. I apologize for that. I just finished writing a research paper on the legal standard for health care for transgender prisoners, and I had to read a lot of terrible bigoted poo poo, which I read into the OP.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:03
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Is this fundamentally different than a pill to fix gay people? I understand the point that gender dysmorphia is not easily treated (through surgery/hormones), but if it's a part of one's identity, then it can't and shouldn't really be changed.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:18
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I dunno, it would be up to the person involved. If they wanna take the pill they can. If not lets just theorise a second magical pill that can turn someone into whatever gender they want.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:22
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I thought this was going to be about a magic pill to change your gender. I don't have any gender issues, but if the pill was available I would take it. Women live longer, apparently have better sex and as a gay man I would expand my dating pool by a huge amount. But in this particular case I don't think the pill should be given. Changing a person's personality should be left up to that person and the person in question doesn't have the ability to make the decision in their formative years.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:59
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