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Burkion posted:Explain this please it sounds amazing Traviss had a major lady-boner for the Mandalorians, Star Wars' mandatory NOBLE WARRIOR RACE, she wrote novel after novel about them, exploring their history and culture and making them the biggest badasses and showing how their warrior nature endured until the Empire's rise... Then Clone Wars showed that Mandalorians were in fact all pacifists who'd set aside war eons before. And Star Wars canon rules are that anything on screen trumps anything in print. If it's on a Lucasfilm TV show or movie, it's what mattters.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:40
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Gaz-L posted:Traviss had a major lady-boner for the Mandalorians, Star Wars' mandatory NOBLE WARRIOR RACE, she wrote novel after novel about them, exploring their history and culture and making them the biggest badasses and showing how their warrior nature endured until the Empire's rise... Then Clone Wars showed that Mandalorians were in fact all pacifists who'd set aside war eons before. And Star Wars canon rules are that anything on screen trumps anything in print. If it's on a Lucasfilm TV show or movie, it's what mattters. Her books also never hesitated to badmouth the Jedi (again, derailing the plot to do so) and often depicting known Jedi characters as uncharacteristically incompetent or dickish in order to use them as strawmen for the Mandalorian characters to knock down. And then yeah, the writers of the Clone Wars series thought her bullshit was really asinine and over the top, so they hinted that they were going to retcon the poo poo out of all of her Mandalorian fanwank in their cartoon, and she had a public meltdown on her blog (since deleted) about how the Mandalorians where HER characters and other writers couldn't just ruin her work, oblivious to the fact that: 1. They weren't her characters 2. She had trampled all over other peoples' work when writing her Mandalorian jerk-off material She threatened to bail on her remaining Star Wars book contracts if the Clone Wars episodes aired, they aired as scheduled (and were quite good, for what they were), she had another public meltdown and bailed on her contracts and nothing of value was lost. She got blacklisted from contributing to Star Wars ever again, her remaining book got canceled, and at the end of the day all of her work got thrown in the trash anyway when the Star Wars EU got rebooted in the wake of The Force Awakens.
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Aug 18, 2016 23:51
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And doesn't Rebels have a Mandalorian character who's again in the proud warrior vein?
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Aug 19, 2016 01:21
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Chairman Capone posted:Out of curiosity, was the Karen Traviss GI Joe comic where Cobra are the real heroes as bad as I would assume a comic with that concept and author would be? Yes. Yes it was. It wasn't that Cobra were the heroes of her books. She didn't seem to spend too much with them, instead focusing on a rebel group in a small country that had been invaded by Cobra, it was that she decided that instead of having the Joes in their traditional role of "elite commando rescue force", she instead had them as black ops assassins, killing leaders of foreign countries.
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Aug 19, 2016 03:27
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Xenomrph posted:Her books also never hesitated to badmouth the Jedi (again, derailing the plot to do so) and often depicting known Jedi characters as uncharacteristically incompetent or dickish in order to use them as strawmen for the Mandalorian characters to knock down. I remember she also had a blog post accusing people who like the Jedi of "Nazi-think"(I believe she also compared her critics to the Taliban) and bragging about how she stood up and applauded in the cinema during the Order 66 scene.
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Aug 20, 2016 01:20
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She also wrote the Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic, according to which there are only 3 million clone soldiers in the entire Republic Army, which ended up getting her into a series of online arguments with the section of the online fanbase who thought that 3 million soldiers was a bit low for a galactic war. So immediately after this had happened, she wrote a short story called Odds, which 'revealed' that Mace Windu had been conspiring with the Republic to massively inflate the scale of the Separatist threat. She literally wrote a book so that she could win an online argument about imaginary spacemans.Wheat Loaf posted:I remember she also had a blog post accusing people who like the Jedi of "Nazi-think"(I believe she also compared her critics to the Taliban) and bragging about how she stood up and applauded in the cinema during the Order 66 scene. There's also the ending to her last Republic Commando book, which features the only sympathetic Jedi in the book heroically sacrificing her life to save an innocent clone trooper from a young Padawan, who was viciously trying to defend himself against Order 66. Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 16:06
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Whoops, double post.
Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 16:08
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Jo Joestar posted:There's also the ending to her last Republic Commando book, which features the only sympathetic Jedi in the book heroically sacrificing her life to save an innocent clone trooper from a young Padawan, who was viciously trying to defend himself against Order 66. Oh, yeah, I remember one of those books revisited a Jedi apprentice character called Scout from an earlier (and much more well-regarded) novel, where her story had been that she had very weak Force sensitivity but her determination impressed Yoda so much that he told her she was an ideal Jedi, except in the Traviss novel it was revealed that the Jedi had hated her all along because of how weak she was, and only the noble Mandalorians would respect her.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:25
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Missing poo poo like this is why I regret not being part of the fandom sooner, this all sounds amazing in just the most batshit way
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Aug 20, 2016 19:36
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If anyone wants to read it, her post about Jedis = Nazis is still on her website: http://www.karentraviss.com/page22/files/Is_it_true_you_hate_Jedi_.html quote:But once you're past the age of puberty and you start arguing passionately with me that the Jedi were right to accept a slave army of cloned human beings and use them in war, and cloned humans aren't proper humans like us, and it was too bad the clones died, and the Jedi had no choice - well, sweetheart, I want to run a mile from you. Not the Jedi, who - just to remind you - are a figment of various writers' imaginations, just like the clones. You. If I see that you really mean it, and you're making excuses in your own mind for the Jedi just following orders on that delicate point, then you scare the living crap out of me. For real.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:06
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Not sure if this belongs here, but the new Flinstones comic continues to be really, really good. Although it's unclear if this is just a more edgy take on the Flinstones or if there is an actual explanation for why Bedrock is pseudo-Modern, has talking animals, and dinosaurs. The weirdest aspect of the book is that there are flashbacks that show them acting like normal early humans.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:16
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I wouldn't expect a rational explanation for why they have "modern" technology, just like the cartoon. I love the comic, but I hope they never explain it. It's the Flintstones, that's just how it goes.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:50
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She could have summarized with 'the prequels are bad and dumb the end'
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Aug 22, 2016 03:57
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Chairman Capone posted:If anyone wants to read it, her post about Jedis = Nazis is still on her website: That excerpt reads more like 'clones as disposable cannon fodder = Nazi-thinking' which... she's not wrong?
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Aug 22, 2016 13:31
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The issue is that I don't think anyone was really treating the clones like that (other than her strawman Jedi.) It certainly wasn't any Lucasfilm mandate considering they had books, videogames and a TV show where they spent a lot of time featuring Clone Troopers.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:14
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Raising a literal army of child soldiers is pretty weird inherently, but she's such a huge diva about it. A better writer would take issues like that and the other flaws of the pre-Empire Jedi Order and handle them with a lot more subtlety.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:40
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muscles like this? posted:The issue is that I don't think anyone was really treating the clones like that (other than her strawman Jedi.) It certainly wasn't any Lucasfilm mandate considering they had books, videogames and a TV show where they spent a lot of time featuring Clone Troopers. As I recall, the Clone Wars cartoon (the one Traviss eventually quit over) even had an episode where a rogue clone trooper is carrying out acts of sabotage because he feels like he and his brothers are being treated as cannon fodder by the Republic. Off the top of my head, there was one of the last Clone Wars era comics John Ostrander wrote, where two Jedi debate what will become of the clones after the war is over: one of them is instinctively suspicious of them because they're bred to fight and kill, and that will always be part of them, while the other believes the Jedi can help the clones to integrate into civilian life. As regards the portrayal of the Jedi, I think Tim Zahn did something with that in Outbound Flight, where the antagonist is a Jedi Master who thinks that having the Force makes the Jedi better than everyone else, but doesn't have an answer when the crew of his ship stand up to him and ask him to explain why.
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Aug 22, 2016 15:08
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Chairman Capone posted:If anyone wants to read it, her post about Jedis = Nazis is still on her website: Ah, so she's one of the CD regulars.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:07
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SynthOrange posted:She could have summarized with 'the prequels are bad and dumb the end' She actually likes the prequels (because the "good guys win" when the clones kill the Jedi) and dislikes the original trilogy (she wrote a book about how common soldiers like Vader and how he's the real hero to them because he cares for his soldiers). muscles like this? posted:The issue is that I don't think anyone was really treating the clones like that (other than her strawman Jedi.) It certainly wasn't any Lucasfilm mandate considering they had books, videogames and a TV show where they spent a lot of time featuring Clone Troopers. And the other thing is that even from the very start of the Clone Wars stuff, before she showed up, there were comics and a book where the Jedi were explicitly the ones raising these issues and the ones encouraging the clones to take names and become individuals and not be treated like cannon fodder.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:18
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Chairman Capone posted:And the other thing is that even from the very start of the Clone Wars stuff, before she showed up, there were comics and a book where the Jedi were explicitly the ones raising these issues and the ones encouraging the clones to take names and become individuals and not be treated like cannon fodder. Sounds like you've got a bad case of the Nazi-think there, mate!
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Aug 22, 2016 17:25
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Chairman Capone posted:She actually likes the prequels (because the "good guys win" when the clones kill the Jedi) and dislikes the original trilogy (she wrote a book about how common soldiers like Vader and how he's the real hero to them because he cares for his soldiers). Vader. The man who casually murders his subordinates because they are not moving fast enough on an insane project that they're already over working on. Clearly he is the best of bosses of which there are no equivalents
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Aug 22, 2016 17:28
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The reasoning was that Vader always led his men from the front, even though Vader's first appearance in ANH is him stepping into Leia's spaceship after his men have gone in ahead of him and cleared it out.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:28
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Burkion posted:Vader. On the other hand he IS primarily murdering arrogant officers as I recall, which I suppose might actually endear him to the rank and file more. "Badass AND he kills our rear end in a top hat bosses" is a lovely sales pitch really.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:41
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WickedHate posted:Raising a literal army of child soldiers is pretty weird inherently, but she's such a huge diva about it. A better writer would take issues like that and the other flaws of the pre-Empire Jedi Order and handle them with a lot more subtlety. I always thought the attempts to introduce shades of grey to a setting where the bad guys wear black and have a giant Death Star was idiotic at best and malicious at worst. The Jedi shouldn't be sketchy, the Republic shouldn't be corrupt and "deserving" of being usurped by the Sith. That can't exist in the same world as the original three films. Wanting it to is nothing but a manifestation of cynicism.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:02
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Eh most of the weird black and white poo poo wasn't in the originals, you have theEU and prequels to thank for that.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:08
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CharlestheHammer posted:Eh most of the weird black and white poo poo wasn't in the originals, you have theEU and prequels to thank for that. Right, except the exact opposite of that.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:17
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Nope, the originals weren't complicated but they were far from black and white. Which they shouldn't be, that would be boring as poo poo. You can go to far, as the weird Jedi=nazi thing shows but the later Eu was much more interesting than the earlier ones.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:20
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nope, the originals weren't complicated but they were far from black and white Please point me to a single scene that casts the empire and its goals in a sympathetic light.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:21
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Oddly specific, it does have a scene with a smuggler who Murders a dude. The empire is hardly thing it doesn't have any real goals.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:27
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Lurdiak posted:Please point me to a single scene that casts the empire and its goals in a sympathetic light. redbackground fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 04:34
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With the fall of the empire they now have ships. What have you done Luke?
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Aug 23, 2016 07:53
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Weren't the clone troopers comissioned by Palpatine though?
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Aug 23, 2016 09:02
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People who are made in a robot factory on commission from Dracula and have no free will are totally heroic and noble, and people who dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of the universe and using this understanding to do good are Hitler.
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Aug 23, 2016 13:31
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Lurdiak posted:I always thought the attempts to introduce shades of grey to a setting where the bad guys wear black and have a giant Death Star was idiotic at best and malicious at worst. You're not wrong, but that's the narrative the prequels and surrounding EU went for. Sketchy pre-Empire Jedi and their army of child soldiers became a thing because of Lucas, and by Traviss' time, there wasn't gonna be any avoiding it. She just went in the dumbest possible direction with it. I guess if you wanna justify it, the Empire may be worse than the corrupt Republic and sketchy Jedi Order, but things get worse before they get better. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 15:15
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Anora posted:Weren't the clone troopers comissioned by Palpatine though? And he explicitly hides it from the Jedi, right? That's what Obi-Wan's whole subplot in AotC is about, if I remember a movie I haven't seen in a decade correctly?
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Aug 23, 2016 16:00
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WickedHate posted:You're not wrong, but that's the narrative the prequels and surrounding EU went for. Sketchy pre-Empire Jedi and their army of child soldiers became a thing because of Lucas, and by Traviss' time, there wasn't gonna be any avoiding it. She just went in the dumbest possible direction with it. I imagine the whole theme of the Jedi being ivory tower sorts whose conservatism means they can't see the fact that their arch-enemy is standing right in front of them, and the Republic being corrupt and sterile, was absolutely intentional on Lucas's part. I mean, it must have been, because the alternative is that Lucas was a little incompetent about getting his ideas across and he sort of lucked into it. That's the main problem for me - I honestly find it hard to tell whether the prequel movies are earnestly trying to portray the Republic as a good thing that's worth preserving, or if they're only being unintentionally critical of it. I know there's the whole Death of the Author idea so it shouldn't really matter, but for me it's a matter of how well an idea is communicated, sometimes even more so than what the idea actually is. This is the guy who's supposed to have seriously suggested "Darth Icky" and "Darth Insanius" as good names for Sith characters, after all.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:01
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Star Wars is at its worst when it's a black and white story but Lucas loved the idea (he reportedly hated KOTOR2 because of that.)so I don't think it was intentional. Lucas also has no idea how to stage a coup, but I digress.
CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 16:49
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Lurdiak posted:People who are made in a robot factory on commission from Dracula and have no free will are totally heroic and noble, and people who dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of the universe and using this understanding to do good are Hitler. That's another thing I liked about Traviss, she insisted that the clones never had any sort of brain chip or conditioning controlling them, they were all fully free. And as a result they carried out Order 66 because they were just such good soldiers they followed orders from their commander-in-chief. In other words, for someone who rants about how the Jedi are Nazis, she uses the Nuremberg Defense to justify her clone troopers' actions. CharlestheHammer posted:Star Wars is at its worst when it's a black and white story but Lucas loved the idea (he reportedly hated KOTOR2 because of that.)so I don't think it was intentional. Lucas also has no idea how to stage a coup, but I digress. I honestly doubt Lucas has any knowledge of KOTOR 2 at all.
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Aug 23, 2016 23:01
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Chairman Capone posted:That's another thing I liked about Traviss, she insisted that the clones never had any sort of brain chip or conditioning controlling them, they were all fully free. And as a result they carried out Order 66 because they were just such good soldiers they followed orders from their commander-in-chief. You'd think someone truly free might object to forced conscription or murdering children for a government structure that gives them no rights.
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Aug 24, 2016 07:24
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Great Britian and France beg to differ.
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Aug 24, 2016 07:32
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