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etalian posted:I like how all the online review whining seems fixated on Marco Polo not being god tier like Game of Thrones. I like Game of Thrones but I think Vikings, and so far Marco Polo, are winning me over just because the stories so far are more self contained and following a couple of interesting characters. Also, you know their going to have a fairly satisfying conclusion. Game of Thrones will not. It's just unfortunate that Maro Polo himself so far kinda sucks compared to everyone else.
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Dec 16, 2014 00:45
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hemale in pain posted:I like Game of Thrones but I think Vikings, and so far Marco Polo, are winning me over just because the stories so far are more self contained and following a couple of interesting characters. Also, you know their going to have a fairly satisfying conclusion. Game of Thrones will not. It's also has a much more breakneck plot pacing than Game of Thrones similar to Vikings or Spartacus.
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Dec 16, 2014 00:59
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I binged 7 episodes or so. It's bad loving television but man I want to finish this thing. Is it cliche as gently caress? Yup. Is it contempo eurocentric white man projection wank fantasy? Hell loving yes. Do I agree with avclub that it doesn't quite know if it wants to be a ponderous political portrait ala Game of Thrones or just entertainingly silly (with splashes of legit greatness) ala Spartacus. Can't really speak for Vikings since I haven't watched But man nobody outside of Asia does historical dramas about the Mongols/China (save for I think a network one from a decade ago where a white dude plays Kublai?) so I can't stop watching this. Art direction is actually pretty top though I agree you don't quite get how truly vast the Mongol horde or its empire really was in scale
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Dec 16, 2014 02:03
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nutranurse posted:When he appeared on-screen for the first time everyone in my college class laughed at the absurdity; even the professor who presumably has seen this movie twice a year since he designed the course himself. Is that worth watching even for entertainment value? I've always been curious qbert posted:Having watched the whole season, I'd say Marco Polo is probably the 4th or 5th most important character on the show. yeah, Spartacus syndrome. Since we don't actually know much about them we have to extrapolate and project, but much more is written about the figures they revolved around
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Dec 16, 2014 02:28
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Jeoh posted:Bound feet The Empress was right in saying she was too old for it, the way of doing it is to keep breaking feet and wrapping them tighter and tighter as the kid grows. By the end of it the feet would be like 4 inches in length and they'd have 4-6 toes lopped off.
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Dec 16, 2014 03:30
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The dude playing Marco Polo is so goddamned awful. He's just a generic prettyboy who is utterly lacking in charisma. It's a damned shame because everybody else in Kublai Khan's court is so great. Benedict Wong as Kublai Khan, Bayan, and Khutulun being standouts.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:06
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1. A story about Marco Polo that isn't just him travelling and meeting mysterious savages 2. Gigantic budget 3. Almost entirely Asian cast 4. Sex scenes/nudity that are ridiculous but also do usually have something to do with the plot 5. Passes the Bechdel Test 6. Absolutely gorgeous cinematography 7. Use of giant crowds of extras rather than CGI 8. The history is wrong, but they get the major players right 9. Great Kublai Khan All of these elements are there in this series, but it still sucked. If anything, this is a massive example of the fact that no matter how much money you spend, no matter how many important boxes you check off, plot and dialogue do matter. I did enjoy how all the big male characters have massive issues with their fathers, but that part was as subtle as a brick to the face.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:06
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I think they were going for Game of Thrones meets House of Cards meets The Last Emperor and they got the visual stuff right, but only that.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:08
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I'm really not getting the Game of Thrones comparisons. Other than 'not modern day' and 'sometimes tits', there are basically zero similarities.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:14
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Steve2911 posted:I'm really not getting the Game of Thrones comparisons. Other than 'not modern day' and 'sometimes tits', there are basically zero similarities. Game of Thrones cribs directly from historical events, but is set in a fantasy world so people don't go "eww history". That's why shows set in actual historical settings seem like Game of Thrones.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:21
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Agreed, other than period costume. GoT and this couldn't be further apart. The battle and fight scenes are gorgeous. I love this show and anyone who disagrees is a hate filled whinger.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:22
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Steve2911 posted:I'm really not getting the Game of Thrones comparisons. Other than 'not modern day' and 'sometimes tits', there are basically zero similarities. Both feature: - political intrigue within a kingdom setting, featuring a giant cast of characters all with their own subplots - a heavily drinking, fat, whoring king - multiple scheming "lords" - a character who started life at the bottom of the class system and manipulated his way to the top - a character who's a bastard and the contrast between his life and the life of a legitimate heir - implied incestuous feelings between a brother and sister - a character who was raised by another family and grew to hate them for what they had done to his real family - massive battles involving horseback, arrows, swords, etc. - heavy emphasis on costume and production design and shot in "exotic" locales - constant meditations on power, how to rule, birthrights, etc.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:43
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So you're saying GoT is almost exactly like feudal history, from pretty much in corner of the earth. That's true of Lord of Rings, Vikings, Rome, Da Vinci show, Tudors, Outlander, Spartacus, or any other movie/show set in the distant past. Seems silly to judge it based on things that are in almost any period drama.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:01
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Rocksicles posted:So you're saying GoT is almost exactly like feudal history, from pretty much in corner of the earth. That's true of Lord of Rings, Vikings, Rome, Da Vinci show, Tudors, Outlander, Spartacus, or any other movie/show set in the distant past. I think it's equally silly to say that the two shows have "basically zero similarities", which was the quote I was responding to. Also I listed a bunch of things that aren't present in the other shows you listed.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:05
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You're very stupid if you don't know that GoT has literal historical events with the names changed and different fantasy continents. They're like if I wrote a novel about all the intrigue and violence surrounding the 4th Crusade, but set in a fantasy world, that culminates with the sacking of Bonstantinople. I know about this stuff, I'm a Harry Turtledove expert.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:20
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yeah fair point. i did say that. But my point stands, almost all those things have been in most period dramas. Long before GoT
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Dec 16, 2014 09:22
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But GoT's the current popular one, so of course people are going to use that if they want to make comparisons.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:26
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My point was that GoT is the most popular period drama ever, or at least the most recent one. So of course Marco Polo is informed by it.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:26
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The comparison to GoT is very obvious and justified. Even besides the nature of the shows, it's about the fact that GoT proved that good writing and acting can make such shows very successful.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:38
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cheerfullydrab posted:1. A story about Marco Polo that isn't just him travelling and meeting mysterious savages The plot was a bit convoluted at the beginning because there are a lot of characters and the audience isn't familiar with the story's setting. The dialogue, however, was excellent throughout the show.
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Dec 16, 2014 12:13
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Well, I've watched this all the way through now. I really do like it, but not so much that I don't recognize it has huge flaws. The first, and most obvious, being that the dude who plays the titular character doesn't really sell it very well. The result is an emotionally distant production over all. He's not the worst actor I've ever seen, but the fact that he's pretty much blown out of the water acting-wise by everyone around him makes it much worse. Next to Kublai Khan, Marco Polo looks like a cardboard cutout; he just doesn't have the charm or the personality to be the protagonist. The subplot with he blue princess feels that much more arbitrary because he can't sell us the emotional stakes for the character; it's just a thing he does against all rational motivations for self preservation. A lot of scenes lack the impact they should have, not because the rest of the production failed to make them sufficiently sweeping, epic and textured, but because there is little invested in the protagonist or his connection to the rest of the cast. The result feels closer to a documentary with tits than the historical drama it should be. I can forgive the weird orientalism, the historical innacuracy and the slight derivativeness of the production, but if you can't make the connections between the characters feel real and weighty, then you have essentially re-created the star wars prequels with Kublai Khan in it. A whole lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. But maybe that's a bit too harsh. In the end, I don't regret watching it. There are some genuinely awesome moments, and the historical setting is a great choice for a show like this. The gorgeous sets and cinematography as well as some really stand out performances by some of the cast make this definitely worthwhile if you like big historical drama. Svaha fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 18:06
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Can we get a  for Johnny Wu as Hundred Eyes. Everything he does is pure magic. Such a brilliant martial arts actor.Even the dude who plays Marco, if he doesn't do kung fu, he blags it well.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:15
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I didn't really care for the romance plot line, it was unessecary and kind of creepy, Polo just stalks this woman until she likes him. Also i found all the parts in China to be super boring, i think i will just skip all that when i decide to re-watch it sometime int he future. Apart from that i really enjoyed it, easily my favourite Netflix produced series, i especially liked the scene in the last episode where the prince sits down next to the soldiers who are throat singing, that was a really nice piece of atmosphere.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:25
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Alan Smithee posted:Is that worth watching even for entertainment value? I've always been curious If you smoke weed (I was sober when I saw it in class, but watched it again recently while high) then definitely. If not, watch it if you've got a couple hours to kill. The premise is actually the same as this show: Marco Polo's young and in Kublai Khan's court, rises to governorship, and along the way falls in love with a captive concubine. It's just told... uhh, not poorly but not well either.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:37
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For what it's worth, the actor who plays Marco literally spoke no English when he was cast for the role. You can read in a bunch of interviews with him or the showrunners that the reason he has so little dialogue in the first two episodes was because of this, so that probably contributed to his weak acting overall, and why he's in relatively few scenes throughout the season for someone who is the eponymous protagonist of the show. Why the creator insisted on casting an Italian for the part is beyond me, considering the Asian actors seem to be culled from half a dozen different countries and just thrown together.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:28
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Eh so far he seems to be doing a fine job. He's not an incredible character, but he fills the job of 'white boy whose eyes you see the world through' well enough. My main gripe with the character so far is that Kublai liked him for his colourful wordplay, but so far he's failed to deliver the same sort of thing when asked every single time. I'd have gotten sick of the one trick pony after a day or two.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:51
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qbert posted:For what it's worth, the actor who plays Marco literally spoke no English when he was cast for the role. You can read in a bunch of interviews with him or the showrunners that the reason he has so little dialogue in the first two episodes was because of this, so that probably contributed to his weak acting overall, and why he's in relatively few scenes throughout the season for someone who is the eponymous protagonist of the show. I'm not sure this works as an excuse. It's possible for a good actor to deliver a solid performance without full command of the English language,(although it's admittedly harder,) since so much of acting comes down to expression and body language. A whole lot can shine though the language barrier. But yeah, you have to wonder why they cast this guy in the first place. There is no advantage to him being native Italian on an English production, especially if he has to learn it while performing the role. It's a bizarre choice considering the stakes of a 90 million dollar production. You'd think they would play it safer when casting a central role like that.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:53
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Svaha posted:I'm not sure this works as an excuse. It's possible for a good actor to deliver a solid performance without full command of the English language,(although it's admittedly harder,) since so much of acting comes down to expression and body language. A whole lot can shine though the language barrier. I agree, and even though it may not have been clear in my last post, I too think he's a pretty bad actor.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:11
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If nothing else I'll watch this for the blind ninja. 100 Eyes is awesome.
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Dec 16, 2014 21:24
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I kind of like it but the script is awful. I can't believe the poo poo they say to each other. Like they have a stylised way of talking like Spartacus but its really really lacking. Lots of Blue Princess! The only time I thought it was good was when the kung fu monk starts telling a story about a golden bird that saves him and it ends with I was very hungry so I caught and ate it. That was nice but then lovely Marco Polo has the most deflating response to it. That guy really sucks the life out of scenes. The other thing that bugs me is some of the time they are going for super stylish kung fu, other times its game of thrones style "realism". You've got 2 fat old men brutally battering each other one episode and 2 thin old men doing spin kicks and vulcan nerve pinches in another. Please pick one.
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Dec 16, 2014 21:50
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qbert posted:I agree, and even though it may not have been clear in my last post, I too think he's a pretty bad actor. Honestly I didn't even notice problems with Marco's acting but that may be the rest of the cast + writing carrying his inexperience...
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Dec 17, 2014 02:34
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MrSlam posted:You gotta have faith that the other 8,000 men are just offscreen. I find it kind of weird that they couldn't hire more extras, given that some Asian productions can hire literally tens or hundreds of thousands of extras for filming to get the kind of large numbers battles should have. Assuming it's filmed in Asia at least. The 1994 production of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" for instance had a reported cast of over 400, 000 including the extras for battles - but they did kind of cheat by using battalions of the People's Liberation Army given that it was a national production of one of, if not their most culturally important piece of literature. With the lower wage brackets in general in Asia you'd figured they'd be able to plump another million or two to hire ten or twenty thousand extras for a few days and knock out all the battle scenes involving large crowd shots in short order.
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Dec 17, 2014 03:57
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tsob posted:I find it kind of weird that they couldn't hire more extras, given that some Asian productions can hire literally tens or hundreds of thousands of extras for filming to get the kind of large numbers battles should have. Assuming it's filmed in Asia at least. The 1994 production of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" for instance had a reported cast of over 400, 000 including the extras for battles - but they did kind of cheat by using battalions of the People's Liberation Army given that it was a national production of one of, if not their most culturally important piece of literature. With the lower wage brackets in general in Asia you'd figured they'd be able to plump another million or two to hire ten or twenty thousand extras for a few days and knock out all the battle scenes involving large crowd shots in short order. It was filmed in Kazakhstan
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Dec 17, 2014 04:14
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DarkCrawler posted:It's seriously odd that nobody hasn't done a big-budget Genghis Khan show yet. Maybe because like every other episode would be a a massive battle, siege or sacking once they got out of the steppe If you're looking for something like that, there's at least a couple movies about him, one called Mongol, made by Mongolians (which I think is still on Netflix), but it takes just as many liberties with history as this show does. It's pretty big budget too though. Jeoh posted:Bound feet That scene really pissed me off, mainly because it was done entirely to paint the character as EVIL. Like, he broke her foot because he was pissed at his sister, and didn't even do it in front of his sister, but in front of a woman who already fears him who he already has no loving respect for and hence has nothing to prove, so he did it ... why? Because the writers think the audience is so loving simple that the show needs a cartoon villain amid all these shades of grey, and the only way to show that is to have him seriously injure a small child. Who he's related to. Because he's annoyed. 
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Dec 17, 2014 05:09
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I'll second that the Mongol movie's pretty good. It was supposed to be the first part of a trilogy, but it looks like it's going to be a while before they'll ever finish the second movie. I finished the 8th episode. I feel like faulting the titular character as the show's weakest link seems very reductive; even though there were huge stretches of the show when I forgot he was even a character. I did like the plot twist with the Blue Princess, which kept me invested in that subplot. It did wish that this show would have been called "Court of Khan" or whatever, with the Venetian just being one of the show's colorful supporting characters. I GIS Benedict Wong. Jesus Christ he put on a lot of weight for this role. Can't say it didn't pay off.
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Dec 17, 2014 05:48
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Stuporstar posted:That scene really pissed me off, mainly because it was done entirely to paint the character as EVIL. Like, he broke her foot because he was pissed at his sister, and didn't even do it in front of his sister, but in front of a woman who already fears him who he already has no loving respect for and hence has nothing to prove, so he did it ... why? But even the Empress just has a slight frown and says that the girl is too old, and it is not what the mother would want. Nothing about how the girl is being mutilated. Compare that to the Mongolian empress whose comment is 'Barbarians', it is meant to show that while many of the Mongolian laws and traditions are brutal, being "civilized" is no necessarily better.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:21
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Oasx posted:But even the Empress just has a slight frown and says that the girl is too old, and it is not what the mother would want. Nothing about how the girl is being mutilated. Compare that to the Mongolian empress whose comment is 'Barbarians', it is meant to show that while many of the Mongolian laws and traditions are brutal, being "civilized" is no necessarily better. He didn't do it in front of the Empress though. He did it in front of the girl's nanny, the friend of his sister's, hence why it was a pointless gesture of cruelty, because in terms of his power games, she doesn't loving matter. If they wanted to show foot-binding, they did it in the most ham-handed, kick-the-dog way, and all it really accomplished is making that character cartoon evil. The problem is with the character's (lack of) motivation for mutilating his niece, and "this is a thing that used to happen" doesn't excuse bad writing.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:36
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Stuporstar posted:That scene really pissed me off, mainly because it was done entirely to paint the character as EVIL. Like, he broke her foot because he was pissed at his sister, and didn't even do it in front of his sister, but in front of a woman who already fears him who he already has no loving respect for and hence has nothing to prove, so he did it ... why? Stuporstar posted:He didn't do it in front of the Empress though. He did it in front of the girl's nanny, the friend of his sister's, hence why it was a pointless gesture of cruelty, because in terms of his power games, she doesn't loving matter. If they wanted to show foot-binding, they did it in the most ham-handed, kick-the-dog way, and all it really accomplished is making that character cartoon evil. The problem is with the character's (lack of) motivation for mutilating his niece, and "this is a thing that used to happen" doesn't excuse bad writing. Wow, it sounds like the entire point went way over your head. The reason he broke the girl's feet in front of her aunt is because the aunt was the one communicating with the girl's mother, and he wanted to send a very clear message that he won't hesitate to hurt the girl if the mother doesn't do as he says. That's what triggers the mother's attempt to openly assassinate the khan, even though she knows it means certain death for her.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:49
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I liked this show a lot. Of course, I enjoy things like Korean Historical Drama and Kung Fu movies so my tolerance for some of the cheesyness that comes with those sorts of genres is already really high. This was just a sexed up and budgeted up version of that sort of thing. I think where it failed to be Game of Thrones was just not having the same emotional depth and liveliness in the characters. Compare Ling Ling to Arya and pretty much everybody is going to prefer watching Arya even if there are some interesting themes going on there with Ling Ling, like with the foot binding which is something I don't think most of the American audience will even know was a thing. Other than that though she is more like Sansa, just kind of stuck as a pawn in a seriously messed up situation. Not as much of a main character as Arya of course, but if you are aspiring to be Game of Thrones having a more meaningful younger character is probably a good goal. I don't know why anyone would call the Kung Fu scenes bad Kung Fu. I understand thinking all Kung Fu scenes are dumb, but that's a different argument. This seemed like competent Kung Fu direction and performance to me. Blind old master apes the Praying Mantis style out of nowhere and destroys the unstoppable bad guy, perfect. They also didn't kill off Marco Polo or Kublai, so not at all like Game of Thrones! Come on, throw in a twist and let's go alternate history straight up! All of Europe and the Americas conquered by season 8. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 07:43
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Twist: Marco Polo is actually a time traveler. Next season they defeat Kublai's cousin when Marco builds some B-52s.
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Dec 17, 2014 07:53
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