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enraged_camel posted:Wow, it sounds like the entire point went way over your head. I didn't get that far (only finished episode four), so the foot binding scene is still fresh and I either missed the part where the sister's friend was established as the person getting/sending the messages or it hasn't been established yet. Though I did get the point that breaking the girl's foot was probably going to be used to send a message to the girl's mother, but understanding that doesn't make him any less cartoonishly evil. Sorry, I shouldn't have said "lack of motivation." I should have said shallow motivations for a character already established as so unpleasant to everyone around him that it makes no sense for anyone to continue putting up with this guy's poo poo. Hell, I mean, earlier in that episode they established that the army doesn't respect him, and yet that's the only claim to power he has -- control of the army. But how does he handle dissent? By promising a guy, one of the best warriors in that army (or so they said), humiliation if he defeated him, but then went on to break the guy's neck instead ... again, just because he's evil. Sorry, doing one thing and saying another is poo poo that does not fly in any kind of honor culture (which at least the military would give a poo poo about), and him demonstrating a complete lack of honor (by not following through on his word, but instead killing a man, in obvious fear for his already lovely reputation) in front of hundreds of troops probably would have gotten him an arrow in his neck instead of loyalty. But that's just my take on it. What I am certain about is they could have better established his character as someone with any claim to power at all. "My sister sucked off the Emperor" just doesn't quite cut it when someone is so aggressively despicable at every single turn.
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Dec 17, 2014 07:56
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Stuporstar posted:Sorry, I shouldn't have said "lack of motivation." I should have said shallow motivations for a character already established as so unpleasant to everyone around him that it makes no sense for anyone to continue putting up with this guy's poo poo. Hell, I mean, earlier in that episode they established that the army doesn't respect him, and yet that's the only claim to power he has -- control of the army. But how does he handle dissent? By promising a guy, one of the best warriors in that army (or so they said), humiliation if he defeated him, but then went on to break the guy's neck instead ... again, just because he's evil. Sorry, doing one thing and saying another is poo poo that does not fly in any kind of honor culture (which at least the military would give a poo poo about), and him demonstrating a complete lack of honor (by not following through on his word, but instead killing a man, in obvious fear for his already lovely reputation) in front of hundreds of troops probably would have gotten him an arrow in his neck instead of loyalty. But that's just my take on it. What I am certain about is they could have better established his character as someone with any claim to power at all. "My sister sucked off the Emperor" just doesn't quite cut it when someone is so aggressively despicable at every single turn. The army didn't respect him because they viewed him as a total weirdo who plays with bugs all day. He proved them wrong by destroying their best fighter using mantis-style kung fu in less than 30 seconds. Honor has nothing to do with it. These are common soldiers: they don't have an honor code like knights or samurai. What they respect is strength and ruthlessness.
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Dec 17, 2014 09:19
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I'm not sure where that 90 million went. they could have at least had a few musical numbers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvS351QKFV4
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Dec 17, 2014 10:02
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That reminds me - I assume Chingis Khan is how it's supposed to be pronounced given that that's the pronunciation the show goes with, over the more traditional pronunciation in the West of Gayngis Khan?
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Dec 17, 2014 11:45
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Yes, it's pronounced as Chenghis in Mongolia, China, India and most places which have direct non-english historical accounts of him.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:52
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I like how every couple of times an episode they have scenes which are essentially "Remember the dude marco polo? this main character does!" Worst one is when the prince wastes his time with Marco's dad telling him he's a jerk.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:09
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Saw it more as him calling his own Dad a jerk by proxy, really, which at least served an understandable emotional purpose.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:27
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enraged_camel posted:The army didn't respect him because they viewed him as a total weirdo who plays with bugs all day. He proved them wrong by destroying their best fighter using mantis-style kung fu in less than 30 seconds. I don't buy that, and that's my main problem with the character. I don't buy him as a figure with any authority over anyone. It's kind of like when I see an actor hold a gun incorrectly: all my trained instinct screams, "Get that gun away from him!" and I can no longer take that character seriously. It's the same way with authority. If the actor/character can't carry it, I spend the whole time asking myself, "Why does anyone listen to this dipshit?" and it destroys the illusion that this is a character I should take seriously. Not to mention, the only reason he "destroyed" the other guy at kung-fu is the soldier was so ridiculously bad at it in comparison. My gut reaction to the end of that fight was, pffft bullshit. The only thing destroyed was my suspension of disbelief. Costrast this to Kublai Khan, who carries the whole series. There is a man I can believe anyone would follow into battle, so when he challenges his brother to a duel to spare a protracted battle between their two armies, I loving buy it. A lot of people in this thread have mentioned Marco Polo is a poo poo character because he doesn't have the on-screen charisma that's supposedly charmed Kublai Khan, and I totally agree. But on top of that, the entire Sung dynasty storyline has been made ridiculous, by this one character who represents them by about 90%, to the point where I'm starting to think their entire POV could have been cut and it would have only strengthened the series. The entire Sung dynasty characters, on-screen, are so paper-thin that it makes me want to fast-forward through all their scenes -- and I wonder if I'd even miss anything. The foot binding thing was only the last straw. I've been not giving a poo poo about those characters, and getting tired of them, since the beginning. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 20:53
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Stuporstar posted:I don't buy that, and that's my main problem with the character. I don't buy him as a figure with any authority over anyone. It's kind of like when I see an actor hold a gun incorrectly: all my trained instinct screams, "Get that gun away from him!" and I can no longer take that character seriously. It's the same way with authority. If the actor/character can't carry it, I spend the whole time asking myself, "Why does anyone listen to this dipshit?" and it destroys the illusion that this is a character I should take seriously. Not to mention, the only reason he "destroyed" the other guy at kung-fu is the soldier was so ridiculously bad at it in comparison. My gut reaction to the end of that fight was, pffft bullshit. The only thing destroyed was my suspension of disbelief. But that's exactly the point! He isn't someone who would normally have any authority over anyone. The reason he does is because his sister helped him rise in the ranks of government by loving influential people in exchange for political favors for him, and the end result is exactly as one would expect: someone who rules via manipulation and fear rather than charisma and leadership skill. Basically, all the reservations you have about the character are fully intended. He's supposed to be a stark contrast to a legitimate leader like Kublai Khan. You are never supposed to say, "wow, this guy really knows how to rule people."
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Dec 17, 2014 23:13
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enraged_camel posted:But that's exactly the point! He isn't someone who would normally have any authority over anyone. The reason he does is because his sister helped him rise in the ranks of government by loving influential people in exchange for political favors for him, and the end result is exactly as one would expect: someone who rules via manipulation and fear rather than charisma and leadership skill. Yeah, I get that point, but it's still bullshit, because lickspittle dipshits like that are the first up against the wall during a regime change. Anyone with an ounce of ambition or noble blood could slit his throat in the town square, and everyone's reaction would be, "Yep, he got what was coming to him." and they'd all walk away thinking the natural order had been restored. I don't loving buy him. Not as a polititian in an unstable Imperial China, not as a general of their armies, and not as a master of kung-fu. His character is badly concieved at the core, as well as being badly presented on-screen, and if you can't see that, well whatever, dude. Enjoy your show. Edit: to anyone else not in this silly argument, can I actually skip the Imperial China scenes and have the show still make sense? Because I still want to watch this half-good show for the Kublai Khan stuff. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 00:46
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I liked the character. He was a competent, entertaining, uniquely weird villain. He was ruling successfully only because he was holding the Mongols back over and over. Even so, everybody wanted to get rid of him but dumb luck hosed it up. The issue is that it's hard to see how the hell he became so capable. The gap between the kid in the (needlessly, seriously creepy) flashback scene who is a useless idiot and the competent Chancellor is bizarre. Beyond, "Studied at Mantis University", there isn't much to explain his evolution. There is a lot of middle there that is completely missing and could have fleshed him out more. Might be some more flashbacks later on since his sister is still around but well, it's a little too late.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:59
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I liked the character. He was a competent, entertaining, uniquely weird villain. He was ruling successfully only because he was holding the Mongols back over and over. Even so, everybody wanted to get rid of him but dumb luck hosed it up. Yeah, I think that has a lot to do why the character fails for me, not that specifically, but because the reason he's there is barely present on-screen. But a bigger part is just my gut reaction every time the dude is on screen. It's definitely not the kind of dislike they intended, at least not for me, because it manifests as sheer disbelief for him being what they keep telling me he's supposed to be. It's not something any amount of argument can change my mind about, because it's not my conscious mind that needs changing, it's an uncanny, subconscious rejection and there's not much more to be said about that. So, I'm gonna stop bitching about it, because what I really came to the thread for was to find out if the show was worth finishing because there's better stuff coming up.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:19
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I just finished the season. After all the buildup, it was satisfying to see Hundred Eyes kill Sidao and Kublai sit on the Song throne. I'm looking forward to the next season. A lot of so-called good "binge" shows usually are just not bad enough to stop watching. This show really has me wondering what will happen next.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:54
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tsob posted:That reminds me - I assume Chingis Khan is how it's supposed to be pronounced given that that's the pronunciation the show goes with, over the more traditional pronunciation in the West of Gayngis Khan? Yep, "Genghis" supposedly came from Persian, which is an odd one because they also have 'Ch'. Maybe the syllables just didn't feel right. With that whole Khwarezmian Persian and "Persian" thing and then possibly going through Arabic that in proper form has neither 'Ch' nor 'G' changing it to the hard 'J', a bunch of possibilities that for some reason aren't all that well documented in the historical record. Have there been any interviews talking about the writing for the actors or their vocab use? I was seriously happy to hear Khutulun using imperial "khagan" to refer to Kublai instead of general prince/master "khan", but it's odd when it seems like it's just her doing it. There's a couple other spots where a character uses a particular term or more practiced pronunciation, then as almost as an "Oh wait we're not doing that?" it gets dropped. As far as the overt sex, if they really wanted to have a bunch of that on screen they should skip to near the end of the Yuan. Forbidden City religious sex parties administered by Tibetan monks among the upper elite as part of a legitimate state program of correcting "spiritual issues" in their dynasty (Got too much woman soul poisoning you? Find a woman with too much man soul and screw each other into balance is a common oversimplified explanation); if it wasn't an obscure time to most westerners it would be a tv goldmine. On another note, I'm wondering if Altan Urag ever gets annoyed with soundtrack producers, something along the lines of "We have other songs you know, you might even pay us to do some new songs. But no, same ones, always same ones..."
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Dec 18, 2014 02:04
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I liked the character. He was a competent, entertaining, uniquely weird villain. He was ruling successfully only because he was holding the Mongols back over and over. Even so, everybody wanted to get rid of him but dumb luck hosed it up. That being said, I think the parts of the show that work are when the plot gets up to speed, or the episode ties around a singular event (not counting the Song court scenes, which make it feel like Daenerys territory most of the time - disconnected), and the fight scenes - both the raw kind and the batshit crazy wuxia gong fu stuff - but it absolutely falls flat on most of the characterization side for almost everyone, or when the plot meanders - and it does this a lot. Pretty much the only good ones were also the ones with great performances to make up for the deficiency, probably.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:26
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I liked the character. He was a competent, entertaining, uniquely weird villain. He was ruling successfully only because he was holding the Mongols back over and over. Even so, everybody wanted to get rid of him but dumb luck hosed it up. I particularly liked how they were initially framing him as a do-nothing-good bureaucrat cricket minister and it turns out that he is a master tactician and a freaking ninja. The Songs wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as they did without him yet he is not appreciated in that way on screen at any point. Just one more of the interesting contradictions stemming from the writing.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:42
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I don't understand the criticisms people have with Marco's acting. IMO he did a fantastic job playing the starry-eyed stranger in a strange land. He wasn't very expressive but that seemed to be on purpose: as per his character, he did his best to hide his emotions and real opinions behind a flat delivery containing as few words as possible (except for the times when Kublai called him out on it) because, after all, he was a guest in a generally-hostile court where the wrong word or action can result in a swift death.
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Dec 18, 2014 06:42
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Even if I didn't have a problem with his performance, his characterization at times is really terrible. Or the writing comes along as not trying hard enough or being unclear. Examples include: -his father abandoning him, which has no gravity to the viewer, because at the start I don't know the relationship between his father and Marco. They should've put the quick 3 years of flashbacks - which were pretty bad I might add - before he dumped his son off at court, because at least then it would've effective. -his weird fondness for Kokachin, which is never really explained except I guess he's thinking with his dick, and it doesn't jive with your assessment that he should remain guarded and careful, considering he's pretty much trying to stick his dick in her because he can. You'll have to elucidate to me what else motivated Marco there exactly. He has his moments, most of them with Kublai, then second probably Byamba, and Hundred Eyes on occasion; Khutulun pretty much carried him when they shared their scenes. Everyone else paired off with him was kinda flat performance-wise, but at least with those characters the writing is there.
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Dec 18, 2014 07:44
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Sober posted:-his weird fondness for Kokachin, which is never really explained except I guess he's thinking with his dick, and it doesn't jive with your assessment that he should remain guarded and careful, considering he's pretty much trying to stick his dick in her because he can. You'll have to elucidate to me what else motivated Marco there exactly. It's a love at first sight thing. That's just a thing that they like to do in movies and shows, there's no realistic motivations there.
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Dec 18, 2014 08:27
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Lycus posted:It's a love at first sight thing. That's just thing that they like to do in movies and shows, there's no realistic motivations there.
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Dec 18, 2014 08:28
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Sober posted:Okay, sure, but I never got that impression from Marco, either from his performance or the writing, honestly. She's pretty, her station makes her untouchable, she clearly likes him back, and she has secrets. Combine these four reasons and you have an excellent justification for Marco to pursue her despite his common sense.
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Dec 18, 2014 08:36
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Subcomputer posted:On another note, I'm wondering if Altan Urag ever gets annoyed with soundtrack producers, something along the lines of "We have other songs you know, you might even pay us to do some new songs. But no, same ones, always same ones..." Maybe I'm weird, but it just felt too on the nose.
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Dec 18, 2014 12:42
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Did people really say he bound her feet for no reason and just to illustrate that he was a cartoon villain? Look, he IS a cartoon villain in some respects, but come on...this is like central to his entire theme. Maybe missing it is from people who (understandably) did not watch the whole thing. Check it. He's a sociopathic mess because from before his sister was in puberty she was whoring for their benefit. And he wasn't pimping her. She dominated his dumb useless rear end at that time in their life even though she was the younger sister. And in the most major failing of the series, for some inexplicable reason both he and the audience had to observe it from and an uncomfortably close distance. So he hated his sister for dominating him and made her pay for it whenever he could once he had the upper hand on her. He used the nickname the anonymous John used for his sister on his niece. When he had her in his power he hurt her to prove his dominance. You think that was for the political gain? I disagree. His favorite whore was a submissive facsimile of his sister who had to die the moment she stepped out of line. The most Machiavellian character in the show was entirely obsessed with his own personal family drama for most of the series.
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Dec 18, 2014 13:12
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enraged_camel posted:She's pretty, her station makes her untouchable, she clearly likes him back, and she has secrets. Combine these four reasons and you have an excellent justification for Marco to pursue her despite his common sense. By the time she even knows he exists, he has been stalking her for months, and then she tries to kill him for some time more. So her liking him isn't really true for most of the series.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:54
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Meh, I really liked the series. Benedict Wong's Kublai Kahn is fantastic, and a real anchor for the show. Reminds me of Robert Baratheon. There's an assorted mix of solid asian actors who otherwise we don't get much exposure to, and the blue princess and wrestle girl are both extremely hot and fun to watch. Joan Chen is a good empress as well. A+
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Dec 18, 2014 21:44
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I liked the character. He was a competent, entertaining, uniquely weird villain. He was ruling successfully only because he was holding the Mongols back over and over. Even so, everybody wanted to get rid of him but dumb luck hosed it up. Yeah, I don't know why they included that scene? Before I just thought he was a ruthless manipulator who pimped his sister out to gain power, but how did that dweeb ever become a badass Kung Fu master?
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Dec 18, 2014 22:26
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DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, I don't know why they included that scene? Before I just thought he was a ruthless manipulator who pimped his sister out to gain power, but how did that dweeb ever become a badass Kung Fu master? He invested the patience, energy, and time required to learn it. The show's not about him so we don't get to see his entire story, you just have to trust that he did that in the decades between being a child and the present-day story. You see who he is in the flashback to illustrate the psychology which still drives him, not the methods by which he rose to power. There's nothing wrong with being curious about him, but the show focused on telling you what you needed to know to understand who he was in the present. That does include the backstory that explains his psychological makeup, but does not include the backstory that explains his skill set.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:39
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I enjoyed this. I also just really like that it's a western production with a mostly Asian cast. I've been wanting HBO or Starz to do a Warring States Period or Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Sengoku Period show in either GoT or Spartacus style for years. And I would be fine with them using a white guy insert to "chronicle the times" or whatever, if that's what they need to do to get funding. I just want to see it.
-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 22:51
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-Blackadder- posted:I enjoyed this. I also just really like that it's a western production with a mostly Asian cast. I've been wanting HBO or Starz to do a Warring States Period or Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Sengoku Period show in either GoT or Spartacus style for years. And I would be fine with them using a white guy insert to "chronicle the times" or whatever, if that's what they need to do to get funding. I just want to see it. I've seen a couple of Korean Historical Dramas that tossed in a time traveling Doctor from the future to make the shows relatable to the modern audience. You can really get away with a lot with this sort of genre, token white guy isn't a big deal.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:55
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In the first game of thrones book Tyrion is amazing gymnast who backflips over John Snow or something to show he's really bad rear end despite being midget. Mercifully that aspect of the character got dropped really fast. Can' help but feel it would have made a lot more sense to do that with king fu chancellor. But he's dead. Of course having a low fat chinese Bronn knock off hanging around might have been a bit lazy too. The other thing about the foot binding thing was he was super into chinese traditions, tea ceremony stuff etc. So it kind of made sense in a total autist way for him to rectify what he probably saw as a deficiency on his sister's part like he said.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:56
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I've seen a couple of Korean Historical Dramas that tossed in a time traveling Doctor from the future to make the shows relatable to the modern audience. You can really get away with a lot with this sort of genre, token white guy isn't a big deal. Ha, that's funny. I'm not even saying they would have to use Sci-Fi elements. Just create a non-historical "traveling poet from the west" to provide the audience perspective and do voice overs to explain the more complex large sweeping events. Someone also mentioned that this show wasn't as educational as they would've liked, something I would really recommend to you guys, is a book called Steppe. It's a really interesting kind of unique book that uses some sci-fi and history elements to give you a detailed education on the history of the Asian Steppe. It's really cool, and I recommend it as much as I can. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 23:10
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Overall I really enjoyed the show. It wasn't enough to make me obsessively binge it, but I watched it over the last week and had fun. I like the juxtaposition of historical based drama and kung fu craziness, like Hundred Eyes setting his broken arm in the middle of a fight. I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up yet, because holy poo poo.Goofballs posted:In the first game of thrones book Tyrion is amazing gymnast who backflips over John Snow or something to show he's really bad rear end despite being midget. Mercifully that aspect of the character got dropped really fast. Can' help but feel it would have made a lot more sense to do that with king fu chancellor. But he's dead. Of course having a low fat chinese Bronn knock off hanging around might have been a bit lazy too. That was really my biggest complaint too. I'm willing to suspend belief that this doofus kid was able to learn how to navigate his slimy rear end around the court, but going from doofus kid to successful politician and amazing kung fu master at the same time just seemed like too much, and entirely unnecessary. -Blackadder- posted:I enjoyed this. I also just really like that it's a western production with a mostly Asian cast. I've been wanting HBO or Starz to do a Warring States Period or Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Sengoku Period show in either GoT or Spartacus style for years. And I would be fine with them using a white guy insert to "chronicle the times" or whatever, if that's what they need to do to get funding. I just want to see it. This would be great and really interesting to see, but it will never happen. There are people unironically mad that this show has too many white people in it, despite Marco Polo having a legitimate, historical reason to be around. If you tried to add a white guy to one of those periods and get a show made, SJWs would be coming out of the woodwork to denounce your racist rear end and call for a boycott. So instead it will never happen. Which I guess they think is better, I don't know.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:37
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Have SJW complaints ever sunk a show or movie? I think they are generally ignored because there is more money in things like whitewashing.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:56
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Have SJW complaints ever sunk a show or movie? I think they are generally ignored because there is more money in things like whitewashing.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:01
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counterfeitsaint posted:There are people unironically mad that this show has too many white people in it, So uh, one?
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Dec 19, 2014 00:25
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Of course, if the evil chancellor wasn't a kung fu master, we wouldn't have gotten the climactic kung fu fight. Marco and his master fighting some thug of the chancellor's wouldn't have been the same.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:26
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I hadn't really followed the Exodus thing, holy cow that's a lot of white people. I'm black guy but I can accept having one white actor who acts as the audience stand-in for a show that is 99% non-white and is being primarily marketed toward a white audience. I think the fact that you're actually getting all those non-white actors working and in big roles and the public is getting a great, epic storyline about vastly different Asian or African cultures should far outweigh any mild issues that people might have with a white character being in the middle of it all. For me I just really want to see these kinds of shows get made, because I think there's an enormous untapped resource for great, GoT quality, drama in non-western history. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 00:29
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enraged_camel posted:She's pretty This is where the story thins out for me. I get that they didn't have laser surgery in the 1200's so Marco's whole perception of beauty is different. But my 2014 mind just can't wrap my head around it. 
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Dec 19, 2014 01:17
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If this was three or four years ago, I probably would have given this show more poo poo for having a boring white dude in an asian setting. I guess it says more about me than it does about the show that I'm tired of making that point of "Why can't we just have an asian guy as the main character?" I'm also getting tired of talking about orientalism. The show at least has the excuse of nominally being about a historical Italian. I'm just glad the show's most interesting, nuanced, and badass characters are the asian men and women. And that we're getting awesome performances from Benedict Wong, Joan Chen, Chin Han, Tom Wu, and Olivia Cheng. Despite simplyfiing (and orientalism blah blah blah) we get a nice broad portrait of the political dynamic between various Asian states; instead of a more tired east vs. west narrative. And kung fu is cool. So I'm just going to sit back, enjoy the show, and save my "Hollywood hates Asians" rants for poo poo like 21, The Last Airbender, The Impossible, Cloud Atlas, Eat Pray Love, 2 Broke Girls, the Red Dawn remake, every SNL sketch about Asia, Seth MacFarlane, every Academy Awards, etc.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:24
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This show is good and Kublai Khan's actor is perfect.-Blackadder- posted:I enjoyed this. I also just really like that it's a western production with a mostly Asian cast. I've been wanting HBO or Starz to do a Warring States Period or Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Sengoku Period show in either GoT or Spartacus style for years. And I would be fine with them using a white guy insert to "chronicle the times" or whatever, if that's what they need to do to get funding. I just want to see it. That would be pretty dope. Red Cliff is also on Netflix and it's pretty amusing.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:32
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