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Amused to Death posted:So how much stuff are people allowed to take out Cuba now? I know the embargo isn't being lifted anytime soon but I thought the deal includes being able to take stuff worth X amount of dollars out of Cuba and into the United States. $400, $100 of which can be booze and tobacco products.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:06
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goatse.cx posted:I'd be more interested to hear about something more recent. That is not unlike the internment of japanese, horrible, but hardly relevant in a discussion about today's US. True, but keep in mind, I posted that to back up my claim that Castro has done some pretty awful poo poo over the past six decades. Castro's regime is certainly less harsh than it was back then, but it's still pretty bad. Sheng-ji Yang posted:Homosexual sex was illegal in parts of the US until 2003. Cuba legalized it in 1979. Officially, yes, but LGBT people faced pretty nasty discrimination from the Cuban government for a while after that.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:06
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Maarek posted:I hear that they're in serious financial trouble now, but how did Cuba even last this long after the fall of the USSR? I'll admit I haven't ever researched the topic but the media seems to be running with the idea that Venezuela was propping them up all this time. Their GDP is around 4500 per cap which is inline with other Caribbean nations. Unemployment is under 4%. It has a lot of debt but large chunks of that have been written off or forgiven. I Russia forgave 30 billion last year.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:07
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HorseLord posted:the only things castro did wrong are the things he's personally apologized for. lmao Sheng-ji Yang posted:$400, $100 of which can be booze and tobacco products. Nice
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Dec 17, 2014 23:07
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Maarek posted:R.B.G., People are guffawing at the idea that this has anything to do with human rights and how selectively some people care about them. If we embargoed every country that abused political dissidents the price of consumer electronics would double overnight. I don't think the statement that Castro's dictatorial abuses are mild compared to some of our closest allies is an outrageous statement either. Personally I don't think there's much point in arguing that specifically, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the embargo anyway. I can't tell if this is directed at me or not but I'm for normalization and abolishing the embargo because embargo can't be reconciled with its coercive impact (none) or internal policy (like you point out, we do business with much, much worse). I don't like anything that smacks of downplaying human rights abuses and I'll freely admit I'm sensitive in this specific context. I even oppose the poor treatment of prisoners domestically and think Brown v. Plata was a good decision and that PREA standards are a baseline that every state and private entity in the sector should adopt. (Also, with exceptions like public figures defending the CIA and then turning aboutface on this, I think it's silly to assume that they only "selectively" care about human rights just as the "what about starving kids in Africa?" line is a canard when wealth inequality is discussed.) This whole thing has nothing to do with the embargo, which has to be lifted by Congress, so I assumed this thread was a Cuba free for all. Vermain posted:They had Paul Rubio as the talking head of the day on the local news program decrying Obama's attempts to get together with a dictatorial government that oppresses its own citizens, and I desperately wished for the power to start making the words "HOUSE OF SAUD" begin flashing on the screen Python-style. Do you mean Marco Rubio or the travel writer? The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 23:08
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HorseLord posted:the only things castro did wrong are the things he's personally apologized for. Dude is one of the more benign dictators around, but lionizing him because he enforces your views rather than views you dislike is kinda hilarious and dumb.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:08
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Vermain posted:They had Paul Rubio as the talking head of the day on the local news program decrying Obama's attempts to get together with a dictatorial government that oppresses its own citizens, and I desperately wished for the power to start making the words "HOUSE OF SAUD" begin flashing on the screen Python-style.  It is particularly funny to see Republicans, dressed in clothes made in China/Vietnam/Bangladesh/insert lovely third-world repressive hellhole here, standing up and lecturing Obama about talking with repressive regimes. Stinking goddamn hypocrites. And if his hissy-fit today didn't expose Marco Rubio as an empty-headed boob on the level of Andy Guzman of Alpha House, I don't know what will. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 23:08
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HorseLord posted:the only things castro did wrong are the things he's personally apologized for. Aaaaah, you had me going there for a couple posts.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:10
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Maarek posted:I hear that they're in serious financial trouble now, but how did Cuba even last this long after the fall of the USSR? I'll admit I haven't ever researched the topic but the media seems to be running with the idea that Venezuela was propping them up all this time. To answer this question: Cuba after the fall of the USSR went through the "Special Period," which saw a fairly large decrease in food imports, primary goods (like cement), and certain manufactured imports (cars, etc.). The response was, basically, to try and become as self-sufficient and efficient as possible. This included things like encouraging non-urban development, finding efficient ways to use certain resources (like fertilizer), establishing "urban farm" schemes, and expanding mass transportation. It involved a pretty significant cut in calories and personal transportation, but it also ended up having positive health benefits: rates of various diet-related diseases (diabetes, heart attacks, etc.) went down dramatically, and Cuba's very environmentally friendly (save for deforestation problems that still need to be resolved). Here's a long article with regards to a lot of what I mentioned above. The Warszawa posted:Do you mean Marco Rubio or the travel writer? Yes, you're right - sorry about that! Eyes have been crossing from exam studies today.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:15
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whitey delenda est posted:Get ready for it to be neither of these things if the U.S. market is opened up! Wait, why does opening Rum markets to the U.S. will risk an increase in price and decline in quality? It's a Cuban-French enterprise. Or is there a risk that American capital might stick their dick in them and pollute Havana Club with the insultingly bad quality that is characteristic of American booze?
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Dec 17, 2014 23:19
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The Warszawa posted:I can't tell if this is directed at me or not In my imagination you are literally Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Vermain posted:To answer this question: ... Here's a long article with regards to a lot of what I mentioned above. Thanks, that's very interesting. Do you think that's sustainable in a hypothetical future where Cuba is opened up to American investment?
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Dec 17, 2014 23:37
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HorseLord posted:the only things castro did wrong are the things he's personally apologized for. I know you are trolling, but Castro and Che personally imprisoned and tortured both of my grandfathers one of whom fought for him in the revolution. Castro is not a good person, I don't give a poo poo if he apologized for it. Also, I have no idea where this popular view of people in Cuba having "good nutrition and healthcare" comes from. I've heard countless stories about the people who aren't important people in the party near starving and their rations of food is incredibly meager while the heads of state and industry dine lavishly. Cuba has never been anything more than a populist state with Castro and his family at the forefront. There is rampant speculation both among Cuban exiles and Cuban nationals that once the Castros are out of power that there will be fractious conflicts that will arise in the country . The command economy is run in near shambles with corruption marking it all the way up the chain. Very little actual food is grown on the island and tobacco and sugar are still the major crops grown there. Black markets are pretty much the only way to get certain basic necessities met there. People are clamoring to leave the island to avoid sham trials and the torture and rape of prisoners. gently caress Castro and his government. That all said, the embargo is the stupidest loving petty thing and all it does is make the situation worse there. e: Goddamit, talking to my relatives about this is the worst poo poo. Even the younger ones all think that I'm a weird traitor because I think the embargo is stupid. If anyone can find polling numbers for how favored/unfavored the embargo is among cuban-americans I'd like to see it. I hope that my family is just an outlier but I suspect it's not. Rexicon1 fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 23:41
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Rexicon1 posted:I know you are trolling, but Castro and Che personally imprisoned and tortured both of my grandfathers one of whom fought for him in the revolution. Castro is not a good person, I don't give a poo poo if he apologized for it. Also, I have no idea where this popular view of people in Cuba having "good nutrition and healthcare" comes from. I've heard countless stories about the people who aren't important people in the party near starving and their rations of food is incredibly meager while the heads of state and industry dine lavishly. Cuba has never been anything more than a populist state with Castro and his family at the forefront. There is rampant speculation both among Cuban exiles and Cuban nationals that once the Castros are out of power that there will be fractious conflicts that will arise in the country . The command economy is run in near shambles with corruption marking it all the way up the chain. Very little actual food is grown on the island and tobacco and sugar are still the major crops grown there. Black markets are pretty much the only way to get certain basic necessities met there. People are clamoring to leave the island to avoid sham trials and the torture and rape of prisoners. Could I ask what sources your information's from? The 80% number that gets tossed around for food imports, for example, is only for the government-issued ration; actual food import dependency is only around the 16% range. This is out of genuine curiosity, since Cuba is a (necessarily) ideologically-charged topic, and I enjoy looking at sources from various angles. Maarek posted:Thanks, that's very interesting. Do you think that's sustainable in a hypothetical future where Cuba is opened up to American investment? Certain aspects of it may or may not be, depending on how much interest investment there is in Cuba. They've been trying to attract more foreign investment of late in order to expand industrially (and possibly to help out with failing infrastructure; most of those big camel buses mentioned are nearly relics, by now). Foreign investment into Cuba is something of a crapshoot, given the fact that the Communist Party has, in the past, nationalized property. It depends on how much leeway the current Cuban government is willing to give in terms of legal protections, and how durable the Communist Party is in the face of increasing investor pressure (if those investors materialize). Vermain fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 23:50
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Mans posted:Wait, why does opening Rum markets to the U.S. will risk an increase in price and decline in quality? It's a Cuban-French enterprise. I was going to rebut this with some quality American liquor, and realised that I literally couldn't think of a single good American liquor some bourbons, i guess?
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Dec 17, 2014 23:50
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Rexicon1 posted:Also, I have no idea where this popular view of people in Cuba having "good nutrition and healthcare" comes from. The World Health Organization. Admittedly I'm no Cuba expert but they are pretty famous for having a decent healthcare system. They sent a lot of doctors to Africa to stop Ebola.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:56
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V. Illych L. posted:I was going to rebut this with some quality American liquor, and realised that I literally couldn't think of a single good American liquor Evan Williams bourbon, many things Sazerac makes, for sure. A lot of other mass produced bourbons are no longer owned by an "American" company. And yes the addition of a U.S. Sized demand pool to the market for Havana club could probably really gently caress up their production, although Pernod would probably be able to step up.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:59
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Realtalk Cuba is a good country by a lot of metrics for its area and history. It's still got tons of trouble with all kinds of fun semi-command-economy things, and it generally can't compete with major "Western" countries. The reason that Castro tends to get lionised is because his administration has managed, through extremely adverse conditions, to provide a real-world example of a tough and not completely dysfunctional non-capitalist economy (also no doubt some "no, gently caress you dad"-ism, but eh).
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Dec 18, 2014 00:00
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Rexicon1 posted:I know you are trolling, but Castro and Che personally imprisoned and tortured both of my grandfathers one of whom fought for him in the revolution. Castro is not a good person, I don't give a poo poo if he apologized for it. I'm not going to take that away from you. It's undignified. However, Cuba is no longer Castro's personal government. It hasn't been that way from a long time. Even if you can't agree with Fidel, you can agree with whatever stable power transition that can exist from lifting the embargo. That said, Castro will never ever go down in the history books as being bad as Stalin or any School of the Americas western dictator, even. It's just impossible.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:01
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whitey delenda est posted:Evan Williams bourbon, many things Sazerac makes, for sure. A lot of other mass produced bourbons are no longer owned by an "American" company. Four Roses is pretty good afair, that's American, right?
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Dec 18, 2014 00:02
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V. Illych L. posted:Four Roses is pretty good afair, that's American, right? Owned by Kirin Brewing Company, Japan. I guess A lot of this breaks down because what does "national" really mean in the era of a globalized economy. The whiskey itself is made in Kentucky, but the company that profits from it is Japanese.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:06
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Job Truniht posted:I'm not going to take that away from you. It's undignified. However, Cuba is no longer Castro's personal government. It hasn't been that way from a long time. Even if you can't agree with Fidel, you can agree with whatever stable power transition that can exist from lifting the embargo.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:06
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V. Illych L. posted:Realtalk Cuba is a good country by a lot of metrics for its area and history. It's still got tons of trouble with all kinds of fun semi-command-economy things, and it generally can't compete with major "Western" countries. The reason that Castro tends to get lionised is because his administration has managed, through extremely adverse conditions, to provide a real-world example of a tough and not completely dysfunctional non-capitalist economy (also no doubt some "no, gently caress you dad"-ism, but eh). Yeah. I think it's far from a perfect society, but it's demonstrated the remarkable resiliency of centrally planned economies when under good administration with clear policy goals. Being a tiny-rear end island with the GDP of a mid-sized U.S. state while living in the backyard of your biggest ideological opponents (and the most militarily powerful nation on the Earth) and still managing to support universal health care, a 99.8% literacy rate, a 78 year life expectancy, and near food self-sufficiency ought to stand for something, at least.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:10
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whitey delenda est posted:Owned by Kirin Brewing Company, Japan. I guess A lot of this breaks down because what does "national" really mean in the era of a globalized economy. The whiskey itself is made in Kentucky, but the company that profits from it is Japanese. If it's not okay to do Marx chat in the Cuba thread, I don't know where it is. He got a lot wrong, but I've always thought what he said about globalization was incredibly prescient for something written in the middle of the 19th century. Could anyone really argue against that point today?
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Dec 18, 2014 00:15
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Vermain posted:Yeah. I think it's far from a perfect society, but it's demonstrated the remarkable resiliency of centrally planned economies when under good administration with clear policy goals. Being a tiny-rear end island with the GDP of a mid-sized U.S. state while living in the backyard of your biggest ideological opponents (and the most militarily powerful nation on the Earth) and still managing to support universal health care, a 99.8% literacy rate, a 78 year life expectancy, and near food self-sufficiency ought to stand for something, at least. Yes, pretty much.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:18
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Vermain posted:Yeah. I think it's far from a perfect society, but it's demonstrated the remarkable resiliency of centrally planned economies when under good administration with clear policy goals. Being a tiny-rear end island with the GDP of a mid-sized U.S. state while living in the backyard of your biggest ideological opponents (and the most militarily powerful nation on the Earth) and still managing to support universal health care, a 99.8% literacy rate, a 78 year life expectancy, and near food self-sufficiency ought to stand for something, at least. Let's ignore a gigantic loving subsidy from the Soviet Union that when it evaporated showed the the true state of the economy. Like this subsidy can't be understated http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/16/world/soviet-said-to-reduce-support-for-cuban-economy.html $4-5 billion a year as stated in that article from 1988 is around $10 billion a year in current dollars. For perspective the entire GDP of Cuba in 2012 was estimated at around $72 billion in nominal dollars, $120billion in PPP.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:18
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That's, like, twenty years ago, dude, the country is (to many people's great surprise) still running and still way ahead of regional averages in some p. important metrics like, I can respect the sentiment that this does not make the whole "repression" thing OK, but it's really not that controversial
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Dec 18, 2014 00:21
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Amused to Death posted:Let's ignore a gigantic loving subsidy from the Soviet Union that when it evaporated showed the the true state of the economy. What is the true state of the economy? What is your opinion on the current QoL indicators mentioned above, which have persisted 25 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union?
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Dec 18, 2014 00:22
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Amused to Death posted:Let's ignore a gigantic loving subsidy from the Soviet Union that when it evaporated showed the the true state of the economy. You mean overstated. And that doesn't really dispute that guys post.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:22
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Rexicon1 posted:I know you are trolling, but Castro and Che personally imprisoned and tortured both of my grandfathers one of whom fought for him in the revolution. Castro is not a good person, I don't give a poo poo if he apologized for it. Also, I have no idea where this popular view of people in Cuba having "good nutrition and healthcare" comes from. I've heard countless stories about the people who aren't important people in the party near starving and their rations of food is incredibly meager while the heads of state and industry dine lavishly. Cuba has never been anything more than a populist state with Castro and his family at the forefront. There is rampant speculation both among Cuban exiles and Cuban nationals that once the Castros are out of power that there will be fractious conflicts that will arise in the country . The command economy is run in near shambles with corruption marking it all the way up the chain. Very little actual food is grown on the island and tobacco and sugar are still the major crops grown there. Black markets are pretty much the only way to get certain basic necessities met there. People are clamoring to leave the island to avoid sham trials and the torture and rape of prisoners. How much does your family miss Batista and their confiscated wealth? it's ok to be honest (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 18, 2014 00:23
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HorseLord posted:How much does your family miss Batista and their confiscated wealth? it's ok to be honest Probably not much, since he points out that - like many Cuban exiles - they were pro-Castro when Castro was selling a return to democracy.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:26
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Is there a good account of that mess anywhere, by the way? I never really understood that part of the Cuban revolution - I've been under the impression that it was more or less the standard post-victory power struggle that got even nastier than normal, is this accurate?
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Dec 18, 2014 00:29
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V. Illych L. posted:I was going to rebut this with some quality American liquor, and realised that I literally couldn't think of a single good American liquor Jim Beam Black Label is an incredible bang for your buck. Seriously loving love that stuff. Also, although Four Roses is owned by a Japanese company, they make it here.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:30
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V. Illych L. posted:Is there a good account of that mess anywhere, by the way? I never really understood that part of the Cuban revolution - I've been under the impression that it was more or less the standard post-victory power struggle that got even nastier than normal, is this accurate? Literally every revolution off the top of my head led to a purge of the revolutionary guard. It's purely structural to any revolution- not ideological or personal.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:31
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V. Illych L. posted:Is there a good account of that mess anywhere, by the way? I never really understood that part of the Cuban revolution - I've been under the impression that it was more or less the standard post-victory power struggle that got even nastier than normal, is this accurate? There is a debate about whether he chose socialism because he thought the USSR would give him more money, whether he was actually a socialist all along, or whether US hostility to his revolution while it was ongoing pushed him towards the USSR.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:31
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Vermain posted:Could I ask what sources your information's from? The 80% number that gets tossed around for food imports, for example, is only for the government-issued ration; actual food import dependency is only around the 16% range. This is out of genuine curiosity, since Cuba is a (necessarily) ideologically-charged topic, and I enjoy looking at sources from various angles. Maarek posted:The World Health Organization. Admittedly I'm no Cuba expert but they are pretty famous for having a decent healthcare system. They sent a lot of doctors to Africa to stop Ebola.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:31
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V. Illych L. posted:Is there a good account of that mess anywhere, by the way? I never really understood that part of the Cuban revolution - I've been under the impression that it was more or less the standard post-victory power struggle that got even nastier than normal, is this accurate? The Che biography (I think A Revolutionary Life?) touches on some of it. A lot of the Soviet minister's involvement and drama.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:32
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The Warszawa posted:Probably not much, since he points out that - like many Cuban exiles - they were pro-Castro when Castro was selling a return to democracy. Well, he said a bunch of outright lies fed to him by his generic cuban expat community, things we know are false because Cuba is a country people can go to very easily, including people who do fun stuff like compile evidence and statistics and poo poo. So I'm not going to believe anything else he said, either.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:33
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Anyone think it is possible that Putin has been secretly courting Cuba into his realm of influence in an attempt to piss off the US in retaliation for Ukraine? I almost wonder if Castro thought it prudent to not get on that sinking ship again and leverage it against Obama to open up a thawing of relations. This whole Cuba thing came out of nowhere and coincides with the Russians beginning to lose face over Ukraine, the sanctions and the Ruble. The last time that happened Putin invaded Crimea.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:33
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quote:Licensed U.S. travelers to Cuba will be authorized to import $400 worth of goods from Cuba, of which no more than $100 can consist of tobacco products and alcohol combined. drat it. Oh well, can't have it all but $100 worth of the good stuff is better than nothing. quote:Telecommunications providers will be allowed to establish the necessary mechanisms, including infrastructure, in Cuba to provide commercial telecommunications and internet services, which will improve telecommunications between the United States and Cuba. This is also great!
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Dec 18, 2014 00:34
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HorseLord posted:Well, he said a bunch of outright lies fed to him by his generic cuban expat community, things we know are false because Cuba is a country people can go to very easily, including people who do fun stuff like compile evidence and statistics and poo poo. So I'm not going to believe anything else he said, either. you seem like a very pleasant, fun person to be around, just thought you should know that
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Dec 18, 2014 00:34
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