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This is pretty amazing. I wonder if Raul has had to agree to any free trade or liberal economic reforms for this to happen.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:46
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Rubio is definitely going to be leading the charge against it Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), another member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was equally blunt. Appearing on Fox News on Wednesday, the Cuban American slammed the administration for the expected announcement, which he called "absurd." "It's absurd and it's part of a long record of coddling dictators and tyrants that this administration has established," Rubio said. The administration, Rubio added, is "constantly giving unilateral concessions in exchange for nothing."
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Dec 17, 2014 17:35
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drat, that speech was more than I ever expected from a US President about this.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The only thing Americans should lay on a Cuban beach is suppressive fire. we tried that it didn't work out that well
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Dec 17, 2014 18:47
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I keep seeing the sentiment here in D&D that the opposition to this deal is coming from aging Cubans and/or from older Cuban generations. Does that mean that the human rights violations and government control no longer exist? Well, there were about 50 political prisoners but apparently Cuba released them all today. Certainly there is still censorship and it's an authoritarian state, but that's never stopped the US being buds with China or Vietnam or Saudi Arabia or etc
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Dec 17, 2014 19:30
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Raul isn't president for life. He's stated he is retiring after his current term. e: Fidel is firmly retired, he is a very old man. 
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Dec 17, 2014 19:33
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Call me crazy, but I don't expect his successor to relinquish the powers of President-for-Life over to reforms suggested from the US. I'll call you crazy. Raul has said he is done after his current term, there's no reason to think he's lying.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:36
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Should the United States embargo every non-liberal democratic country? The world economy would be doomed.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:46
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I don't think Carlos received much support from Cuba past the 60s, it was mainly middle eastern countries. They refused him asylum in the 80s. Cuba definitely supported leftist guerrillas in Latin America and Africa until the late 80s, but hasn't done any of that since the Cold War.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property. At various points almost every country in Latin America has nationalized property owned by American businesses. Should we have an embargo on Mexico for nationalizing oil in the 30s? Brazil in the 50s? Venezuela? Bolivia? Chile? Argentina? All have nationalized American owned property and never returned it.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:17
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Pretending the embargo ever had anything to do with Cuba's repression and human rights abuses is silly. As far as authoritarian regimes go Cuba was very mild and the US has been close friends with much, much worse. Hell the US secretly backed the Khmer Rouge.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:47
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I could maybe see Kerry but Obama going to Cuba would be insane
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Dec 17, 2014 20:53
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Majorian posted:
Fidel Castro visited one of the UMAP camps incognito to experience the treatment for himself. He was followed by 100 boys from the Young Communist League whose identity was also kept secret. In 1968, shortly after these visits, the camps closed. Castro said, "They weren't units of internment or punishment.... However, after a visit I discovered the distortion in some places, of the original idea, because you can't deny that there were prejudices against homosexuals. I personally started a review of this matter. Those units only lasted three years."
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Dec 17, 2014 21:42
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He sent people to forced labor camps for being gay or Seventh Day Adventists.
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Zeitgueist posted:"He had labor camps" - country that imprisons more of it's population than any nation in history Homosexual sex was illegal in parts of the US until 2003. Cuba legalized it in 1979.
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Dec 17, 2014 22:44
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Amused to Death posted:So how much stuff are people allowed to take out Cuba now? I know the embargo isn't being lifted anytime soon but I thought the deal includes being able to take stuff worth X amount of dollars out of Cuba and into the United States. $400, $100 of which can be booze and tobacco products.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:06
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Nckdictator posted:Castro's regime has done some pretty terrible things ( Che's reign of terror mostly, gently caress Che, the recent persecution of dissidents) but the US is hardly blameless in that regard (The Bay of Pigs, sheltering anti-Castro terrorists, the murder attempts on Castro). Che's "reign of terror" consisted of executing between 50-100 Batista military officers and informants at La Cabaña immediately after the revolution, which as far as reign of terrors go is pretty tame, unless there's something else you're referring to. "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere." — Jon Lee Anderson
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Dec 18, 2014 01:11
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Nckdictator posted:Nah, I was referring to that and his attitude towards nuclear war. Of course I was being somewhat hyperbolic. You mean Fidel and Che saying they'd fire the nukes (they had no control over) if the US invaded during the crisis? That was largely bluster at the height of the missile crisis to scare off a US invasion which seemed imminent. I mean, using nuclear weapons in defense was both US and Soviet policy at the time and they were just trying to get in on that action, calling that a reign of terror seems a bit much.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:26
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Omi-Polari posted:You know, I agree with the Sheng-ji Yang hive-mind and am really not interested in re-fighting Cold War battles. I agree. I disagree with the image of Fidel as the sort of bloodthirsty/corrupt/insane dictator that Americans love to brand all their enemies, and that his regime was probably as close to a benevolent dictatorship as it gets. But it's still at the end of the day a dictatorship. My hope is that with the Castros gone there are somehow significant political reforms and openings without too much compromising of the socialist system/giving in to neoliberal gods, but the reality is probably going to be closer to Vietnam or China. The fault for that will lie with Fidel.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:56
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Rincewinds posted:So it's kinda like the US army former "don't ask, don't tell"? You can be gay, but you can not express it in an organized or political manner? No, homosexuality is legal and you can express the fact you are gay. You just can't form any advocacy groups or political organizations beyond the confines of the party/government.
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Dec 18, 2014 13:59
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http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2014/1217/Why-Miami-s-Cuban-Americans-are-divided-on-US-thaw-with-Cuba-video In the 2014 edition of Florida International University’s annual Cuba poll, only 48 percent of Miami-Dade County’s Cuban-Americans said they support continuing the embargo – down from 87 percent when the poll began in 1991 – and 68 percent said they favored diplomatic relations. That number goes up to 90 percent when confined to the 18 to 29 age group. “There is no monolithic Cuban community,” says Guillermo Grenier, a professor of sociology at FIU and the principal investigator of the Cuba poll. “The most striking thing is how much the population changes based on the time that they arrive in Miami, what pushes them out of Cuba.” He pinpoints the year 1995 as a dividing line – the year the US instituted the so-called “wet foot, dry foot” policy, which allowed any Cuban refugee who managed to set foot on American soil – or, more likely, beach – to stay and eventually become a citizen. Earlier immigrants often had more means and a more ideological reason for leaving. By the 1990s, poverty was more likely to be the driving force. The post-1995 wave, about one-third of the community, is more in favor of softening hardline policies on Cuba, he says.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:55
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spacetoaster posted:I'm totally willing to overlook the decades of executions (judicial and extra-judicial), torture, etc, etc if I can get a cheap new vacation spot where it's warm. I'm assuming that's why all of you are so cool with this possibly going down too? Yeah you should definitely take a vacation to the United States! The last execution in Cuba was 2003, torture probably hasn't happened since the 60s (except in Guantanamo).
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Dec 19, 2014 00:13
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I have no evidence to support this belief TheImmigrant posted:Havana Club is very good, but Flor de Caña is more than adequate as a substitute. Flor is good but its gotten a lot more expensive in the past couple of years since they launched a big US marketing campaign.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:50
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Ardennes posted:If anything it would be better if Cuba had both, increased trade and cooperation but also higher standards of living that spread more equally. Cuba is a poor country, and needs political democraticization and a rollback of authoritarianism but it doesn't need shock therapy. It would be interesting to see a communist country try to politically liberalize but largely maintain a socialist economy. Apparently Raul released every political prisoner. Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 23:55
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lothar_ posted:I believe one already tried that. Ok yeah. At least Cuba doesn't have a dozen different subject nationalities and puppets that want nothing to do with it. Hopefully Cuba doesn't suffer a Yeltsin or shock therapy.
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Dec 20, 2014 04:57
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Omi-Polari posted:Damien Cave is a kickass reporter: Says one official in a small town.
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Dec 20, 2014 13:41
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The Warszawa posted:This isnt necessarily true, though - many of those old Cubans grew up with stories about the pre-Batista constitutional democracy. Granted, a lot of those stories are idealized but to assume they mean exchanging one dictator for another is unfair. There has never been effective or stable liberal democracy in Cuba. Even from 1906-1925 there were basically constant revolts, parties which challenged the US being banned, like 4 US invasions, etc. In 1925 Machado was elected but he quickly became a dictator and wasnt removed until 1933, at which point Batista outmanuevered a liberal revolutionary junta and took power. Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 18:05
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