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  • Locked thread
uG
Apr 23, 2003

by Ralp

Shadow posted:

Also, I did not know about this incognito method. Do you know what the logic/strategy they use when identifying you by a cookie?

Its pretty simple. You look for an airline ticket, and now you have identified yourself as maybe needing a flight. Search for the same ticket again later and it becomes clear you actually *need* that trip to that location in that time frame so you would be willing to pay a little more even if you don't want to (because every other airline also does this and their prices will be slightly higher now as well)

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TwoStepBoog
Apr 12, 2008

Shadow posted:

Also, I did not know about this incognito method. Do you know what the logic/strategy they use when identifying you by a cookie?

I believe the idea is, if you look up the same flight multiple times, they know you're more likely to buy it or that you'll need to fly that day, so they raise the prices.
And if you see the prices raise, you may buy the tickets just to make sure they don't go up any more.

This is actually a pretty rare occurrence (and usually only happens on websites like Orbitz and Expedia) from what I've read and experienced, but it's better to just make sure you're not getting shafted.

e;fb

Only slightly related, but there was also a WSJ article a couple of years ago that showed Orbitz was trying to steer you towards more expensive flights and hotels if you were searching from a Mac device.

Shadow
Jun 25, 2002

TwoStepBoog posted:

I believe the idea is, if you look up the same flight multiple times, they know you're more likely to buy it or that you'll need to fly that day, so they raise the prices.
And if you see the prices raise, you may buy the tickets just to make sure they don't go up any more.

This is actually a pretty rare occurrence (and usually only happens on websites like Orbitz and Expedia) from what I've read and experienced, but it's better to just make sure you're not getting shafted.

e;fb

Only slightly related, but there was also a WSJ article a couple of years ago that showed Orbitz was trying to steer you towards more expensive flights and hotels if you were searching from a Mac device.

Got it.. and yes, I believe I remember the WSJ article you're referring to.

Jesus... you open Chrome and Firefox side by side with the same search and could see different prices based on which browser you did the initial searches from. Good god that would cause me to rage out.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo

Demonachizer posted:

I bring my snake everywhere I go. :wink:

Hint for non back readers, quote then stop. You'll see his post normal

But yes, bring lots of big snakes, they eat yappy "comfort" dogs or whatever the mentals call them.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo

old dog child posted:

only if people aren't allowed to bring babies, which are more annoying than a dog would be (since there is no noise or behavior restriction on children)

e: you literally have to treat the pet crate like a box that you cannot open or close so there's less freedom than a typical carry-on item too

Ride the greyhound with ur dogge you shithead

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

TwoStepBoog posted:

I believe the idea is, if you look up the same flight multiple times, they know you're more likely to buy it or that you'll need to fly that day, so they raise the prices.
And if you see the prices raise, you may buy the tickets just to make sure they don't go up any more.

This is actually a pretty rare occurrence (and usually only happens on websites like Orbitz and Expedia) from what I've read and experienced, but it's better to just make sure you're not getting shafted.

e;fb

Only slightly related, but there was also a WSJ article a couple of years ago that showed Orbitz was trying to steer you towards more expensive flights and hotels if you were searching from a Mac device.

How is this not illegal as gently caress

Decebal
Jan 6, 2010

Professor Shark posted:

How is this not illegal as gently caress

You don't have to regulate something like this because the free market will disfavor it and it will disappear.


Edit: Why aren't foreign airlines allowed to fly domestic flights in the US ?

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Decebal posted:

You don't have to regulate something like this because the free market will disfavor it and it will disappear.

*Proceeds to fight to have information sharing illegal*

TwoStepBoog
Apr 12, 2008

Decebal posted:

Edit: Why aren't foreign airlines allowed to fly domestic flights in the US ?

made illegal when american airlines were still pretty heavily regulated to ensure americans only use american poo poo blah blah blah america

3 DONG HORSE
May 22, 2008

I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

Darth123123 posted:

Ride the greyhound with ur dogge you shithead

nah, in fact i will grab tufts of fur and spread them all over the plane when i fly in january case you're there

e: and im gonna scrape my butthole on all the seats

3 DONG HORSE fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Dec 31, 2014

Howard Beale
Feb 22, 2001

It's like this, Peanut

TwoStepBoog posted:

made illegal when american airlines were still pretty heavily regulated to ensure americans only use american poo poo blah blah blah america

terrorists could be, you know, flying them ferrn planes in

Shadow
Jun 25, 2002

TwoStepBoog posted:

made illegal when american airlines were still pretty heavily regulated to ensure americans only use american poo poo blah blah blah america

Is the same true for American airlines doing domestic flights overseas?

Tiny Timbs
Sep 6, 2008

uG posted:

Its pretty simple. You look for an airline ticket, and now you have identified yourself as maybe needing a flight. Search for the same ticket again later and it becomes clear you actually *need* that trip to that location in that time frame so you would be willing to pay a little more even if you don't want to (because every other airline also does this and their prices will be slightly higher now as well)

lol there's also a thing where they use browser IDs to see if you're using Safari on a Macintosh and then they jack up the prices based on that

TwoStepBoog
Apr 12, 2008

Shadow posted:

Is the same true for American airlines doing domestic flights overseas?

i'm not sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case

Decebal
Jan 6, 2010

TwoStepBoog posted:

i'm not sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case

it's true. Europe and the US would have to sign a trade agreement or something and that apparently is really hard

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

runupon cracker posted:

I'm not sure how the airlines think they're going to win this, given the precedence in Ticketmaster vs. Tickets.com. Are there any significant differences that I'm just not seeing here?

Completely different. That case was alleging copyright infringement, which was a really flimsy allegation. Ticketmaster essentially was saying that tickets.com was violating copyright by linking to their site. In this case, the airlines are alleging (and are totally correct in alleging) that this site is encouraging people to violate the terms of the use of these tickets.

I reckon, if there's any defence to be made at all, it will hinge on arguing that said terms are frivolous.

END OF AN ERROR
May 16, 2003

IT'S LEGO, not Legos. Heh


TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

Completely different. That case was alleging copyright infringement, which was a really flimsy allegation. Ticketmaster essentially was saying that tickets.com was violating copyright by linking to their site. In this case, the airlines are alleging (and are totally correct in alleging) that this site is encouraging people to violate the terms of the use of these tickets.

I reckon, if there's any defence to be made at all, it will hinge on arguing that said terms are frivolous.

What exactly are the terms? If I buy a ticket I HAVE to use it? Or what?

Harald
Jul 10, 2009

LINKIN PARK


i can definitely understand some problems with the layover booking strategy. but still gently caress airlines..they shouldn't have made it a viable strategy in the first place.

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Tiny Lowtax posted:

What exactly are the terms? If I buy a ticket I HAVE to use it? Or what?

whatever they are if they are used to try to justify this poo poo they're spurious imo, this is why I don't want to get into contract law

I imagine it varies from airline to airline but they all probably state something to the effect that your final destination must be the place to which you intend to travel. In other words you can't buy a ticket from atlanta to dallas to los angeles if you really just want to go from atlanta to dallas.

but obviously that's unenforceable, as you just pointed out, so it's bullshit

TacticalUrbanHomo fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jan 1, 2015

GORILLA BASTARD
Jun 20, 2005

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
gently caress Obamacare too.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo

GORILLA BASTARD posted:

gently caress Obamacare too.

Lol this guy gets it.

ziasquinn
Jan 1, 2006

Fallen Rib
This reminds me that the guy who built the solar car was a flight attendant and an environmentalist.

That's like caring about making really good mouse traps and the rats that die in them

EmperorFritoBandito
Aug 7, 2010

by exmarx

Professor Shark posted:

How is this not illegal as gently caress

<chuckles and tousles your hair>

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

The Taint Reaper posted:

I had a 10 hour flight and the meals they serve you aren't even worthy of being served in a prison.

You're paying for the right to be treated worse than a prisoner.

i've been on many transatlantic flights and i've also been served a meal in jail

the plane food is better by leaps and bounds

CrimsonSaber
Dec 27, 2005
Metaphysicist
Airlines should offer far fewer flights. Artificially restricting supply to increase the price of flights will make people think a lot more about flying to destinations that might otherwise be unnecessary. Then, airlines can finally offer flights to people who are willing to register for the flights several months in advance for a price that can turn a profit and no longer requires government subsidy.

I realize that you guys want to be able to fly across the world with fewer than 24 hours notice, but you will need to pay a several thousand dollar premium in order to do so.

Sometimes the simplest solution is to realize that the customer is not always right.

nomadologique
Mar 9, 2011

DUNK A DILL PICKLE REALDO

blowfish posted:

I pay something like €5 for that :smug:

why is everything insane in merica

lol we get forty dollar flights flying from philadelphia to pittsburgh too

why is everything in europe so close together

TOILETLORD
Nov 13, 2012

by XyloJW
i want to say mean things about planes but it would get me fl;agged by nsa gently caress you guys.

Twitch
Apr 15, 2003

by Fluffdaddy
I've been planning a trip to Massachusetts in a few months, and I decided I'd rather spend 10+ hours in my car each way than step foot into an airport. gently caress airlines.

Tuxedo Gin
May 21, 2003

Classy.

CrimsonSaber posted:

Airlines should offer far fewer flights. Artificially restricting supply to increase the price of flights will make people think a lot more about flying to destinations that might otherwise be unnecessary. Then, airlines can finally offer flights to people who are willing to register for the flights several months in advance for a price that can turn a profit and no longer requires government subsidy.

I realize that you guys want to be able to fly across the world with fewer than 24 hours notice, but you will need to pay a several thousand dollar premium in order to do so.

Sometimes the simplest solution is to realize that the customer is not always right.

This is competition driven more than customer demand driven. One airline cuts their flights and raises prices to a more realistic level, and ten more swoop in the fill the void and undercut the prices.

Three Olives
Apr 10, 2005

What if Hitler invented the BMW i3 Subcompact Electric car?
On a crack-of-dawn flight from New York City to Seattle recently, I had my first ever, um, altercation with a seat mate. I'd almost missed the plane—I was that person staggering on board just before the doors closed—and I'm sure he thought he was going to have the row all to himself. I flashed him an apologetic smile (I know that aeronautical heartbreak too well!) and pointed to the middle seat. "Hey, sorry, I'm over there." He looked at my body, sort of glared blankly at my hips, but didn't respond or make eye contact with me. Then, as I went to put my bag in the overhead bin, I heard him mutter something sour.

"[Something something] say excuse me."

My adrenaline went bonkers. Was someone being a dick to me? In person? At 7 am? In an enclosed space? For no reason? When I have a hangover? And we're about to be stuck next to each other for the next five hours? I'm used to men treating me like garbage virtually, or from fast-moving cars, but this close-quarters IRL poo poo-talking was a jarring novelty.

Me: "What?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No, you said something. What did you say?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No. What did you say? Tell me."

Other passengers: [silent screams]

Him: "I said that if you want someone to move, it helps to say 'excuse me' and then get out of the way. You told me to move and then you just [gestures at my body in the aisle]."

Me [head melting]: "I'm putting my bag in the overhead bin. You know, because that's how planes work?"

Him [dripping with disdain]: "Yeah, okay."

I sat down. They closed the doors. I said, "Looks like there's no one in the middle seat, so you won't actually have to sit next to me. Since I apparently bother you so much."

Him: "Sounds great to me."

As soon as he fell asleep (with his mouth open like a NERD), I passive-aggressively jarred his foot with my backpack and then said, "OH, EXCUSE ME," because I am an adult. We ignored each other for the rest of the flight.

It felt foreign to be confronted so vocally and so publicly (and for such an arbitrary reason), but it also felt familiar. People say the same kind of thing to me with their eyes on nearly every flight—this guy just chose to say it with his mouth.

This is the subtext of my life: "You're bigger than I'd like you to be." "I dread being near you." "Your body itself is a breach of etiquette." "You are clearly a loving moron who thinks that cheesecake is a vegetable." "I know that you will fart on me."

Nobody wants to sit next to a fat person on a plane. Don't think we don't know.

I have, in my life, been a considerably thinner person and had a fat person sit next to me on a plane. I have also, more recently, been the fat person that makes other travelers' faces fall. Anecdotally, I can verify that being the fat person is almost indescribably worse.

This year, for the first time ever, I got on a plane and discovered that I didn't fit in the seat. I've always been fat, but I was the fat person that still mostly fit. I mean, I couldn't fit into clothes (MORE TUNICS PATTERNED LIKE A PARISIAN SUITCASE, PLEASE), and I had to be careful with butt safety (I'll take the chair side, not the banquette, thanks), but I was still the kind of fat person who could move through the straight-size world without causing too many ripples. Until this fall.

It's been an incredibly busy year for me professionally—I've probably flown 20 times in the past eight months—and one day I sat down and it just didn't work. I was on a flight home from Texas, I think, and the flight out there had been fine. Suddenly, on the return flight, I had to cram myself in. I mean, I know I ate that brisket, but I was only gone for two days! I'm no butt scientist (at least, not certified...ANYMORE), but how fast could a person's butt possibly grow!?

If you've never tried cramming your hips into a jagged metal box that's an inch or two narrower than your flesh (under the watchful eye of resentful tourists), then sitting motionless in there for five hours while you fold your arms and shoulders up like an origami orchid in order to be as unobtrusive as possible, RUN DON'T WALK. It's like squeezing your bones in a vise. The pain makes your teeth ache. It loving hurts.

But even worse than any physical pain is the anxiety of walking up the aisle and not knowing what plane you're on. Am I going to fit this time? Will I have to ask for a seatbelt extender? Is this a 17-incher or an 18-incher? Did I get on early enough that I can get myself crammed in before someone comes and sits next to me? Is the person next to me going to hate me? Does everyone on this plane hate me? I paid money for this?

People's butts might be getting bigger, sure, but it's a certainty that seats are getting smaller. I fit in every other chair. (Some people don't. That's fine too. Those are good bodies too. Those people deserve respect and accommodations too, without caveats.)

I'm sure some fat people are fat by their own hand, without any underlying medical conditions, but a lot of other fat people are fat because they're sick or disabled. And unless you're checking every human being's bloodwork before they pull up Kayak.com, you do not know which fat people are which. Which means, inevitably, if you think fat people are "the problem" (and not, say, airlines hoping to squeeze out an extra $200 million a year in revenue, or consumers who want cheap airline tickets without sacrificing amenities), you are penalizing a significant number of human beings emotionally and financially for a disease or disability that already complicates their lives. To me, ethically, that's hosed up.

A few weeks ago, I went to Seattle's Museum of Flight for my nephew's 6th birthday party. They have the body of an old airliner from the '60s in there, and you can go hang out in it and pretend you're a Mad Man or whatever and honk the buns of invisible flight attendants. Whatever you're into. And you know what? THOSE SEATS ARE loving HUGE. It's like sitting in a normal human chair, but IN THE SKY. The difference was incredible. (It was definitely the most interesting exhibit in the museum, and that place also has, like, the first plane. Which, to be fair, didn't have seats at all. So...upgrade? I guess?)

Soon after that museum visit, I came across this post: "It Is Now Physically Impossible for an Adult to Fit on a Plane." The Wall Street Journal reported that seats are getting smaller and smaller, even on long international flights—some squeezing below an already scrunchy 17 inches. In case you don't know how small small is, that is CRAZY SMALL. That's not just too small for fat people, it's inhumanely small for "normal"-size people too. Another headline: "Airlines squeezing in even more seating."

Southwest, the largest domestic carrier, is installing seats with less cushion and thinner materials — a svelte model known in the business as slim-line. It is also reducing the maximum recline to 2 inches from 3.

My boyfriend is 6'5". His shoulders are so wide that he physically must use both armrests (and then some), and his legs are so long that the person in front of him absolutely cannot recline their seat. He doesn't loving fit. He fits worse than I do. Even though fat people are always blamed for RUINING EVERYTHING on planes, I realized the other day that—thanks to insecurity and my proficiency at origami-arms—I've literally never used a plane armrest. Even when I'm in the middle seat. I hear it's nice, though!

None of this is news. The should-fat-people-be-allowed-on-planes debate has been raging for years, and I have no interest in pointlessly rehashing it all over again. Some people will always disagree. That's fine.

But I just want to say this: Before the day I didn't fit, this conversation was largely an abstraction for me. My stance was the same as it is now (if people pay for a service, it's the seller's obligation to accommodate those people and provide the service they paid for), but I didn't understand what that panicky, uncertain walk down the aisle actually felt like. How inhumane it is. How much it makes you question your worth as a human being. I've done it a dozen or so times now, and I've also had a fat person sit next to me and squish me a little bit for six hours. There is no comparison.

I'm telling you this right now not to get sympathy or pity, or even to change your opinion about how airplanes should accommodate larger passengers. I'm just telling you, human to human, that life is complicated and fat people are trying to live. Same as you. Regardless of your stance on the "obesity epidemic," these things are objectively true: Airplane seats are too small. They're too small for everyone except for small people. It's bad. Passengers are going loving nuts. And, sorry, it's not my responsibility to fix it.

That guy next to me didn't call me fat to my face. I don't even know if that's what was bothering him, although I know the way he looked at my body (my body, not my face, not once, not ever). I can't be sure why that guy was mad at me, but I know why people are mad at me on planes. I know that he disliked me instantly, he invented a reason to be a dick to me, and then he executed it. At 7 am. In a flying fart-can. When I HAD A HANGOVER. And, much more importantly, I see other people staring those same daggers at other fat people's bodies every day, in the sky and on the ground. It's just a lovely way to go through life, for everyone.

You don't have to change your mind about fat people. But you could just be loving kind. You could give it a shot. It's the holidays, and we're all in this fart-can together.

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...
shouldnt you be flying in a private jet

#aircondo

Spandex Bonerlord
Sep 30, 2014

Three Olives posted:

On a crack-of-dawn flight from New York City to Seattle recently, I had my first ever, um, altercation with a seat mate. I'd almost missed the plane—I was that person staggering on board just before the doors closed—and I'm sure he thought he was going to have the row all to himself. I flashed him an apologetic smile (I know that aeronautical heartbreak too well!) and pointed to the middle seat. "Hey, sorry, I'm over there." He looked at my body, sort of glared blankly at my hips, but didn't respond or make eye contact with me. Then, as I went to put my bag in the overhead bin, I heard him mutter something sour.

"[Something something] say excuse me."

My adrenaline went bonkers. Was someone being a dick to me? In person? At 7 am? In an enclosed space? For no reason? When I have a hangover? And we're about to be stuck next to each other for the next five hours? I'm used to men treating me like garbage virtually, or from fast-moving cars, but this close-quarters IRL poo poo-talking was a jarring novelty.

Me: "What?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No, you said something. What did you say?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No. What did you say? Tell me."

Other passengers: [silent screams]

Him: "I said that if you want someone to move, it helps to say 'excuse me' and then get out of the way. You told me to move and then you just [gestures at my body in the aisle]."

Me [head melting]: "I'm putting my bag in the overhead bin. You know, because that's how planes work?"

Him [dripping with disdain]: "Yeah, okay."

I sat down. They closed the doors. I said, "Looks like there's no one in the middle seat, so you won't actually have to sit next to me. Since I apparently bother you so much."

Him: "Sounds great to me."

As soon as he fell asleep (with his mouth open like a NERD), I passive-aggressively jarred his foot with my backpack and then said, "OH, EXCUSE ME," because I am an adult. We ignored each other for the rest of the flight.

It felt foreign to be confronted so vocally and so publicly (and for such an arbitrary reason), but it also felt familiar. People say the same kind of thing to me with their eyes on nearly every flight—this guy just chose to say it with his mouth.

This is the subtext of my life: "You're bigger than I'd like you to be." "I dread being near you." "Your body itself is a breach of etiquette." "You are clearly a loving moron who thinks that cheesecake is a vegetable." "I know that you will fart on me."

Nobody wants to sit next to a fat person on a plane. Don't think we don't know.

I have, in my life, been a considerably thinner person and had a fat person sit next to me on a plane. I have also, more recently, been the fat person that makes other travelers' faces fall. Anecdotally, I can verify that being the fat person is almost indescribably worse.

This year, for the first time ever, I got on a plane and discovered that I didn't fit in the seat. I've always been fat, but I was the fat person that still mostly fit. I mean, I couldn't fit into clothes (MORE TUNICS PATTERNED LIKE A PARISIAN SUITCASE, PLEASE), and I had to be careful with butt safety (I'll take the chair side, not the banquette, thanks), but I was still the kind of fat person who could move through the straight-size world without causing too many ripples. Until this fall.

It's been an incredibly busy year for me professionally—I've probably flown 20 times in the past eight months—and one day I sat down and it just didn't work. I was on a flight home from Texas, I think, and the flight out there had been fine. Suddenly, on the return flight, I had to cram myself in. I mean, I know I ate that brisket, but I was only gone for two days! I'm no butt scientist (at least, not certified...ANYMORE), but how fast could a person's butt possibly grow!?

If you've never tried cramming your hips into a jagged metal box that's an inch or two narrower than your flesh (under the watchful eye of resentful tourists), then sitting motionless in there for five hours while you fold your arms and shoulders up like an origami orchid in order to be as unobtrusive as possible, RUN DON'T WALK. It's like squeezing your bones in a vise. The pain makes your teeth ache. It loving hurts.

But even worse than any physical pain is the anxiety of walking up the aisle and not knowing what plane you're on. Am I going to fit this time? Will I have to ask for a seatbelt extender? Is this a 17-incher or an 18-incher? Did I get on early enough that I can get myself crammed in before someone comes and sits next to me? Is the person next to me going to hate me? Does everyone on this plane hate me? I paid money for this?

People's butts might be getting bigger, sure, but it's a certainty that seats are getting smaller. I fit in every other chair. (Some people don't. That's fine too. Those are good bodies too. Those people deserve respect and accommodations too, without caveats.)

I'm sure some fat people are fat by their own hand, without any underlying medical conditions, but a lot of other fat people are fat because they're sick or disabled. And unless you're checking every human being's bloodwork before they pull up Kayak.com, you do not know which fat people are which. Which means, inevitably, if you think fat people are "the problem" (and not, say, airlines hoping to squeeze out an extra $200 million a year in revenue, or consumers who want cheap airline tickets without sacrificing amenities), you are penalizing a significant number of human beings emotionally and financially for a disease or disability that already complicates their lives. To me, ethically, that's hosed up.

A few weeks ago, I went to Seattle's Museum of Flight for my nephew's 6th birthday party. They have the body of an old airliner from the '60s in there, and you can go hang out in it and pretend you're a Mad Man or whatever and honk the buns of invisible flight attendants. Whatever you're into. And you know what? THOSE SEATS ARE loving HUGE. It's like sitting in a normal human chair, but IN THE SKY. The difference was incredible. (It was definitely the most interesting exhibit in the museum, and that place also has, like, the first plane. Which, to be fair, didn't have seats at all. So...upgrade? I guess?)

Soon after that museum visit, I came across this post: "It Is Now Physically Impossible for an Adult to Fit on a Plane." The Wall Street Journal reported that seats are getting smaller and smaller, even on long international flights—some squeezing below an already scrunchy 17 inches. In case you don't know how small small is, that is CRAZY SMALL. That's not just too small for fat people, it's inhumanely small for "normal"-size people too. Another headline: "Airlines squeezing in even more seating."

Southwest, the largest domestic carrier, is installing seats with less cushion and thinner materials — a svelte model known in the business as slim-line. It is also reducing the maximum recline to 2 inches from 3.

My boyfriend is 6'5". His shoulders are so wide that he physically must use both armrests (and then some), and his legs are so long that the person in front of him absolutely cannot recline their seat. He doesn't loving fit. He fits worse than I do. Even though fat people are always blamed for RUINING EVERYTHING on planes, I realized the other day that—thanks to insecurity and my proficiency at origami-arms—I've literally never used a plane armrest. Even when I'm in the middle seat. I hear it's nice, though!

None of this is news. The should-fat-people-be-allowed-on-planes debate has been raging for years, and I have no interest in pointlessly rehashing it all over again. Some people will always disagree. That's fine.

But I just want to say this: Before the day I didn't fit, this conversation was largely an abstraction for me. My stance was the same as it is now (if people pay for a service, it's the seller's obligation to accommodate those people and provide the service they paid for), but I didn't understand what that panicky, uncertain walk down the aisle actually felt like. How inhumane it is. How much it makes you question your worth as a human being. I've done it a dozen or so times now, and I've also had a fat person sit next to me and squish me a little bit for six hours. There is no comparison.

I'm telling you this right now not to get sympathy or pity, or even to change your opinion about how airplanes should accommodate larger passengers. I'm just telling you, human to human, that life is complicated and fat people are trying to live. Same as you. Regardless of your stance on the "obesity epidemic," these things are objectively true: Airplane seats are too small. They're too small for everyone except for small people. It's bad. Passengers are going loving nuts. And, sorry, it's not my responsibility to fix it.

That guy next to me didn't call me fat to my face. I don't even know if that's what was bothering him, although I know the way he looked at my body (my body, not my face, not once, not ever). I can't be sure why that guy was mad at me, but I know why people are mad at me on planes. I know that he disliked me instantly, he invented a reason to be a dick to me, and then he executed it. At 7 am. In a flying fart-can. When I HAD A HANGOVER. And, much more importantly, I see other people staring those same daggers at other fat people's bodies every day, in the sky and on the ground. It's just a lovely way to go through life, for everyone.

You don't have to change your mind about fat people. But you could just be loving kind. You could give it a shot. It's the holidays, and we're all in this fart-can together.

same

Infidel Castro
Jun 8, 2010

Again and again
Your face reminds me of a bleak future
Despite the absence of hope
I give you this sacrifice




The only flight with a layover I had was from Minneapolis to LAX, and the layover was in my hometown anyway. I had lunch with my parents while waiting for my plane.

Of course the connecting plane was an hour late getting in from Boston. :argh:

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.
Maybe you should have said "excise me." Good manners cost nothing!

Mr. Pumroy
May 20, 2001

Decebal posted:

You don't have to regulate something like this because the free market will disfavor it and it will disappear.

*sues website that does exactly this*

END OF AN ERROR
May 16, 2003

IT'S LEGO, not Legos. Heh


3o needs to walk those treadmills at his condo complex a little more.

Dave Concepcion
Mar 19, 2012

Three Olives posted:

On a crack-of-dawn flight from New York City to Seattle recently, I had my first ever, um, altercation with a seat mate. I'd almost missed the plane—I was that person staggering on board just before the doors closed—and I'm sure he thought he was going to have the row all to himself. I flashed him an apologetic smile (I know that aeronautical heartbreak too well!) and pointed to the middle seat. "Hey, sorry, I'm over there." He looked at my body, sort of glared blankly at my hips, but didn't respond or make eye contact with me. Then, as I went to put my bag in the overhead bin, I heard him mutter something sour.

"[Something something] say excuse me."

My adrenaline went bonkers. Was someone being a dick to me? In person? At 7 am? In an enclosed space? For no reason? When I have a hangover? And we're about to be stuck next to each other for the next five hours? I'm used to men treating me like garbage virtually, or from fast-moving cars, but this close-quarters IRL poo poo-talking was a jarring novelty.

Me: "What?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No, you said something. What did you say?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No. What did you say? Tell me."

Other passengers: [silent screams]

Him: "I said that if you want someone to move, it helps to say 'excuse me' and then get out of the way. You told me to move and then you just [gestures at my body in the aisle]."

Me [head melting]: "I'm putting my bag in the overhead bin. You know, because that's how planes work?"

Him [dripping with disdain]: "Yeah, okay."

I sat down. They closed the doors. I said, "Looks like there's no one in the middle seat, so you won't actually have to sit next to me. Since I apparently bother you so much."

Him: "Sounds great to me."

As soon as he fell asleep (with his mouth open like a NERD), I passive-aggressively jarred his foot with my backpack and then said, "OH, EXCUSE ME," because I am an adult. We ignored each other for the rest of the flight.

It felt foreign to be confronted so vocally and so publicly (and for such an arbitrary reason), but it also felt familiar. People say the same kind of thing to me with their eyes on nearly every flight—this guy just chose to say it with his mouth.

This is the subtext of my life: "You're bigger than I'd like you to be." "I dread being near you." "Your body itself is a breach of etiquette." "You are clearly a loving moron who thinks that cheesecake is a vegetable." "I know that you will fart on me."

Nobody wants to sit next to a fat person on a plane. Don't think we don't know.

I have, in my life, been a considerably thinner person and had a fat person sit next to me on a plane. I have also, more recently, been the fat person that makes other travelers' faces fall. Anecdotally, I can verify that being the fat person is almost indescribably worse.

This year, for the first time ever, I got on a plane and discovered that I didn't fit in the seat. I've always been fat, but I was the fat person that still mostly fit. I mean, I couldn't fit into clothes (MORE TUNICS PATTERNED LIKE A PARISIAN SUITCASE, PLEASE), and I had to be careful with butt safety (I'll take the chair side, not the banquette, thanks), but I was still the kind of fat person who could move through the straight-size world without causing too many ripples. Until this fall.

It's been an incredibly busy year for me professionally—I've probably flown 20 times in the past eight months—and one day I sat down and it just didn't work. I was on a flight home from Texas, I think, and the flight out there had been fine. Suddenly, on the return flight, I had to cram myself in. I mean, I know I ate that brisket, but I was only gone for two days! I'm no butt scientist (at least, not certified...ANYMORE), but how fast could a person's butt possibly grow!?

If you've never tried cramming your hips into a jagged metal box that's an inch or two narrower than your flesh (under the watchful eye of resentful tourists), then sitting motionless in there for five hours while you fold your arms and shoulders up like an origami orchid in order to be as unobtrusive as possible, RUN DON'T WALK. It's like squeezing your bones in a vise. The pain makes your teeth ache. It loving hurts.

But even worse than any physical pain is the anxiety of walking up the aisle and not knowing what plane you're on. Am I going to fit this time? Will I have to ask for a seatbelt extender? Is this a 17-incher or an 18-incher? Did I get on early enough that I can get myself crammed in before someone comes and sits next to me? Is the person next to me going to hate me? Does everyone on this plane hate me? I paid money for this?

People's butts might be getting bigger, sure, but it's a certainty that seats are getting smaller. I fit in every other chair. (Some people don't. That's fine too. Those are good bodies too. Those people deserve respect and accommodations too, without caveats.)

I'm sure some fat people are fat by their own hand, without any underlying medical conditions, but a lot of other fat people are fat because they're sick or disabled. And unless you're checking every human being's bloodwork before they pull up Kayak.com, you do not know which fat people are which. Which means, inevitably, if you think fat people are "the problem" (and not, say, airlines hoping to squeeze out an extra $200 million a year in revenue, or consumers who want cheap airline tickets without sacrificing amenities), you are penalizing a significant number of human beings emotionally and financially for a disease or disability that already complicates their lives. To me, ethically, that's hosed up.

A few weeks ago, I went to Seattle's Museum of Flight for my nephew's 6th birthday party. They have the body of an old airliner from the '60s in there, and you can go hang out in it and pretend you're a Mad Man or whatever and honk the buns of invisible flight attendants. Whatever you're into. And you know what? THOSE SEATS ARE loving HUGE. It's like sitting in a normal human chair, but IN THE SKY. The difference was incredible. (It was definitely the most interesting exhibit in the museum, and that place also has, like, the first plane. Which, to be fair, didn't have seats at all. So...upgrade? I guess?)

Soon after that museum visit, I came across this post: "It Is Now Physically Impossible for an Adult to Fit on a Plane." The Wall Street Journal reported that seats are getting smaller and smaller, even on long international flights—some squeezing below an already scrunchy 17 inches. In case you don't know how small small is, that is CRAZY SMALL. That's not just too small for fat people, it's inhumanely small for "normal"-size people too. Another headline: "Airlines squeezing in even more seating."

Southwest, the largest domestic carrier, is installing seats with less cushion and thinner materials — a svelte model known in the business as slim-line. It is also reducing the maximum recline to 2 inches from 3.

My boyfriend is 6'5". His shoulders are so wide that he physically must use both armrests (and then some), and his legs are so long that the person in front of him absolutely cannot recline their seat. He doesn't loving fit. He fits worse than I do. Even though fat people are always blamed for RUINING EVERYTHING on planes, I realized the other day that—thanks to insecurity and my proficiency at origami-arms—I've literally never used a plane armrest. Even when I'm in the middle seat. I hear it's nice, though!

None of this is news. The should-fat-people-be-allowed-on-planes debate has been raging for years, and I have no interest in pointlessly rehashing it all over again. Some people will always disagree. That's fine.

But I just want to say this: Before the day I didn't fit, this conversation was largely an abstraction for me. My stance was the same as it is now (if people pay for a service, it's the seller's obligation to accommodate those people and provide the service they paid for), but I didn't understand what that panicky, uncertain walk down the aisle actually felt like. How inhumane it is. How much it makes you question your worth as a human being. I've done it a dozen or so times now, and I've also had a fat person sit next to me and squish me a little bit for six hours. There is no comparison.

I'm telling you this right now not to get sympathy or pity, or even to change your opinion about how airplanes should accommodate larger passengers. I'm just telling you, human to human, that life is complicated and fat people are trying to live. Same as you. Regardless of your stance on the "obesity epidemic," these things are objectively true: Airplane seats are too small. They're too small for everyone except for small people. It's bad. Passengers are going loving nuts. And, sorry, it's not my responsibility to fix it.

That guy next to me didn't call me fat to my face. I don't even know if that's what was bothering him, although I know the way he looked at my body (my body, not my face, not once, not ever). I can't be sure why that guy was mad at me, but I know why people are mad at me on planes. I know that he disliked me instantly, he invented a reason to be a dick to me, and then he executed it. At 7 am. In a flying fart-can. When I HAD A HANGOVER. And, much more importantly, I see other people staring those same daggers at other fat people's bodies every day, in the sky and on the ground. It's just a lovely way to go through life, for everyone.

You don't have to change your mind about fat people. But you could just be loving kind. You could give it a shot. It's the holidays, and we're all in this fart-can together.


                                                        /

BallerBallerDillz
Jun 11, 2009

Cock, Rules, Everything, Around, Me
Scratchmo

Three Olives posted:

On a crack-of-dawn flight from New York City to Seattle recently, I had my first ever, um, altercation with a seat mate. I'd almost missed the plane—I was that person staggering on board just before the doors closed—and I'm sure he thought he was going to have the row all to himself. I flashed him an apologetic smile (I know that aeronautical heartbreak too well!) and pointed to the middle seat. "Hey, sorry, I'm over there." He looked at my body, sort of glared blankly at my hips, but didn't respond or make eye contact with me. Then, as I went to put my bag in the overhead bin, I heard him mutter something sour.

"[Something something] say excuse me."

My adrenaline went bonkers. Was someone being a dick to me? In person? At 7 am? In an enclosed space? For no reason? When I have a hangover? And we're about to be stuck next to each other for the next five hours? I'm used to men treating me like garbage virtually, or from fast-moving cars, but this close-quarters IRL poo poo-talking was a jarring novelty.

Me: "What?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No, you said something. What did you say?"

Him: "Nothing."

Me: "No. What did you say? Tell me."

Other passengers: [silent screams]

Him: "I said that if you want someone to move, it helps to say 'excuse me' and then get out of the way. You told me to move and then you just [gestures at my body in the aisle]."

Me [head melting]: "I'm putting my bag in the overhead bin. You know, because that's how planes work?"

Him [dripping with disdain]: "Yeah, okay."

I sat down. They closed the doors. I said, "Looks like there's no one in the middle seat, so you won't actually have to sit next to me. Since I apparently bother you so much."

Him: "Sounds great to me."

As soon as he fell asleep (with his mouth open like a NERD), I passive-aggressively jarred his foot with my backpack and then said, "OH, EXCUSE ME," because I am an adult. We ignored each other for the rest of the flight.

It felt foreign to be confronted so vocally and so publicly (and for such an arbitrary reason), but it also felt familiar. People say the same kind of thing to me with their eyes on nearly every flight—this guy just chose to say it with his mouth.

This is the subtext of my life: "You're bigger than I'd like you to be." "I dread being near you." "Your body itself is a breach of etiquette." "You are clearly a loving moron who thinks that cheesecake is a vegetable." "I know that you will fart on me."

Nobody wants to sit next to a fat person on a plane. Don't think we don't know.

I have, in my life, been a considerably thinner person and had a fat person sit next to me on a plane. I have also, more recently, been the fat person that makes other travelers' faces fall. Anecdotally, I can verify that being the fat person is almost indescribably worse.

This year, for the first time ever, I got on a plane and discovered that I didn't fit in the seat. I've always been fat, but I was the fat person that still mostly fit. I mean, I couldn't fit into clothes (MORE TUNICS PATTERNED LIKE A PARISIAN SUITCASE, PLEASE), and I had to be careful with butt safety (I'll take the chair side, not the banquette, thanks), but I was still the kind of fat person who could move through the straight-size world without causing too many ripples. Until this fall.

It's been an incredibly busy year for me professionally—I've probably flown 20 times in the past eight months—and one day I sat down and it just didn't work. I was on a flight home from Texas, I think, and the flight out there had been fine. Suddenly, on the return flight, I had to cram myself in. I mean, I know I ate that brisket, but I was only gone for two days! I'm no butt scientist (at least, not certified...ANYMORE), but how fast could a person's butt possibly grow!?

If you've never tried cramming your hips into a jagged metal box that's an inch or two narrower than your flesh (under the watchful eye of resentful tourists), then sitting motionless in there for five hours while you fold your arms and shoulders up like an origami orchid in order to be as unobtrusive as possible, RUN DON'T WALK. It's like squeezing your bones in a vise. The pain makes your teeth ache. It loving hurts.

But even worse than any physical pain is the anxiety of walking up the aisle and not knowing what plane you're on. Am I going to fit this time? Will I have to ask for a seatbelt extender? Is this a 17-incher or an 18-incher? Did I get on early enough that I can get myself crammed in before someone comes and sits next to me? Is the person next to me going to hate me? Does everyone on this plane hate me? I paid money for this?

People's butts might be getting bigger, sure, but it's a certainty that seats are getting smaller. I fit in every other chair. (Some people don't. That's fine too. Those are good bodies too. Those people deserve respect and accommodations too, without caveats.)

I'm sure some fat people are fat by their own hand, without any underlying medical conditions, but a lot of other fat people are fat because they're sick or disabled. And unless you're checking every human being's bloodwork before they pull up Kayak.com, you do not know which fat people are which. Which means, inevitably, if you think fat people are "the problem" (and not, say, airlines hoping to squeeze out an extra $200 million a year in revenue, or consumers who want cheap airline tickets without sacrificing amenities), you are penalizing a significant number of human beings emotionally and financially for a disease or disability that already complicates their lives. To me, ethically, that's hosed up.

A few weeks ago, I went to Seattle's Museum of Flight for my nephew's 6th birthday party. They have the body of an old airliner from the '60s in there, and you can go hang out in it and pretend you're a Mad Man or whatever and honk the buns of invisible flight attendants. Whatever you're into. And you know what? THOSE SEATS ARE loving HUGE. It's like sitting in a normal human chair, but IN THE SKY. The difference was incredible. (It was definitely the most interesting exhibit in the museum, and that place also has, like, the first plane. Which, to be fair, didn't have seats at all. So...upgrade? I guess?)

Soon after that museum visit, I came across this post: "It Is Now Physically Impossible for an Adult to Fit on a Plane." The Wall Street Journal reported that seats are getting smaller and smaller, even on long international flights—some squeezing below an already scrunchy 17 inches. In case you don't know how small small is, that is CRAZY SMALL. That's not just too small for fat people, it's inhumanely small for "normal"-size people too. Another headline: "Airlines squeezing in even more seating."

Southwest, the largest domestic carrier, is installing seats with less cushion and thinner materials — a svelte model known in the business as slim-line. It is also reducing the maximum recline to 2 inches from 3.

My boyfriend is 6'5". His shoulders are so wide that he physically must use both armrests (and then some), and his legs are so long that the person in front of him absolutely cannot recline their seat. He doesn't loving fit. He fits worse than I do. Even though fat people are always blamed for RUINING EVERYTHING on planes, I realized the other day that—thanks to insecurity and my proficiency at origami-arms—I've literally never used a plane armrest. Even when I'm in the middle seat. I hear it's nice, though!

None of this is news. The should-fat-people-be-allowed-on-planes debate has been raging for years, and I have no interest in pointlessly rehashing it all over again. Some people will always disagree. That's fine.

But I just want to say this: Before the day I didn't fit, this conversation was largely an abstraction for me. My stance was the same as it is now (if people pay for a service, it's the seller's obligation to accommodate those people and provide the service they paid for), but I didn't understand what that panicky, uncertain walk down the aisle actually felt like. How inhumane it is. How much it makes you question your worth as a human being. I've done it a dozen or so times now, and I've also had a fat person sit next to me and squish me a little bit for six hours. There is no comparison.

I'm telling you this right now not to get sympathy or pity, or even to change your opinion about how airplanes should accommodate larger passengers. I'm just telling you, human to human, that life is complicated and fat people are trying to live. Same as you. Regardless of your stance on the "obesity epidemic," these things are objectively true: Airplane seats are too small. They're too small for everyone except for small people. It's bad. Passengers are going loving nuts. And, sorry, it's not my responsibility to fix it.

That guy next to me didn't call me fat to my face. I don't even know if that's what was bothering him, although I know the way he looked at my body (my body, not my face, not once, not ever). I can't be sure why that guy was mad at me, but I know why people are mad at me on planes. I know that he disliked me instantly, he invented a reason to be a dick to me, and then he executed it. At 7 am. In a flying fart-can. When I HAD A HANGOVER. And, much more importantly, I see other people staring those same daggers at other fat people's bodies every day, in the sky and on the ground. It's just a lovely way to go through life, for everyone.

You don't have to change your mind about fat people. But you could just be loving kind. You could give it a shot. It's the holidays, and we're all in this fart-can together.

Jesus - what loving flight were you on from NYC that had a layover in Seattle? I can't imagine this one weird trick works for international flights and no other flights make any drat sense. NYC-SEA-LAX? Doubtful. . .

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo

The Nards Pan posted:

Jesus - what loving flight were you on from NYC that had a layover in Seattle? I can't imagine this one weird trick works for international flights and no other flights make any drat sense. NYC-SEA-LAX? Doubtful. . .

I regularly fly from my Midwest airport to DCA, via Denver or Dallas. Saving fuel with the spoke n hub!

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uG
Apr 23, 2003

by Ralp
fwiw years ago I got off at my connecting city and when it was time for my return flight they tried to tell me i forfeited it by not taking the last leg of the trip (or first leg on the way back). I don't know why they didn't think I would make a scene until they gave me my loving seat back but it took a good 35 minutes of weed deprived bitching to finally get them to do the right thing

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