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jesus christ death and prison time are different you autistic gently caress
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Jan 2, 2015 01:15
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Unoriginal Name posted:jesus christ death and prison time are different you autistic gently caress Anything else than accepting this premise is obviously ridiculous. People who think doing 15 and being electrocuted to death until your eyes catch on fire are qualitatively similar have lost all perspective and are chasing some crazy argument down a rabbit hole.
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Jan 2, 2015 01:21
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Here's twodot's argument in short form for those confused 1. There is a category of punishments which are revocable 2. Crimes which are revocable can be completely undone (as if nothing ever happened) 3. Caros claimed that the death penalty does not belong to the revocable category while other punishments do (note: this isn't actually true, just what twodot apparently believes) 4. Caros is wrong because the death penalty, life sentences, and indeed all punishments cannot belong to the revocable category by definition. There is literally no substance to the argument, he's just being a pedant Red and Black fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 01:29
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Chomskyan posted:Here's twodot's argument in short form for those confused I never believed set theory autism was a thing until now.
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Jan 2, 2015 01:31
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twodot posted:We need a consistent set of laws, if individual courts were allowed to have their own interpretations of law, it would lead to madness pretty quickly. There's a reason why the Supreme Court prioritizes Circuit splits. ... did you just troll wikipedia for a random sentence and post it here? This has nothing to do with what I was asking. quote:No, I'm arguing that beating some with a pipe and killing them are not categorically different due to one being more final than another. In each case they happen, and the consequences of them happening can not be avoided. I never said there was no real difference, just that your stated reason for treating death and prison differently doesn't work. Yeah, I'm about done. This is like arguing with some weird chatbot that almost made the turing test but fell a bit short.
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Jan 2, 2015 02:10
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Caros posted:... did you just troll wikipedia for a random sentence and post it here? This has nothing to do with what I was asking.
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Jan 2, 2015 02:13
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twodot posted:No? You asked why I think appeals matter, and I told you. I don't understand why you think it's not related. How many people have to tell you that you are an idiot before you get a clue? Edit: The very fact that 2 of you were arguing the same poo poo blows my mind. Get mental help. You are a serial killer or something. The way you think is not normal. Pohl fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 02:15
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twodot posted:No? You asked why I think appeals matter, and I told you. I don't understand why you think it's not related. Do you think appeals should be allowed on questions of fact?
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Jan 2, 2015 02:25
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Do you think appeals should be allowed on questions of fact? twodot fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 02:38
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This is a video of Ricky Jackson, a man who spent 39 years in prison for murder. He was wrongfully convicted, and finally exonerated last November. He does seem to regret the loss of time, but he also seems like he's happy to be getting out of prison at any rate. It's almost like it was a good thing, even though it was clearly inferior to having never incarcerated him in the first place... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yV_HLDjMlw
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Jan 2, 2015 02:44
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Do you think appeals should be allowed on questions of fact? Do you not think they should be?
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Jan 2, 2015 02:45
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stan worship posted:This is a video of Ricky Jackson, a man who spent 39 years in prison for murder. He was wrongfully convicted, and finally exonerated last November. He does seem to regret the loss of time, but he also seems like he's happy to be getting out of prison at any rate. It's almost like it was a good thing, even though it was clearly inferior to having never incarcerated him in the first place... Wait the guy spent 40 years in prison and all the judge had to say was that he should watch who he trusts? loving 
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Jan 2, 2015 02:53
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I would rather spend n time in prison than be killed so yeah. Because you know why? With the first one I might be let out and then be free again. It may not be much, and it may not be even for long, but it's still some freedom. I suppose at some point you could conjure a scenario where it's not worth it, like 50 years in the clink for two days of freedom, but you get to really stretching poo poo like that and the whole thing breaks down. Fortunately, for all the defense of the death penalty in the US, we don't really have to contend with legal figures who believe that time served is the same thing as being dead.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:19
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stan worship posted:This is a video of Ricky Jackson, a man who spent 39 years in prison for murder. He was wrongfully convicted, and finally exonerated last November. He does seem to regret the loss of time, but he also seems like he's happy to be getting out of prison at any rate. It's almost like it was a good thing, even though it was clearly inferior to having never incarcerated him in the first place... Yeah the greatest evidence that a) having an unpleasant time in prison for a few decades is preferable to execution after an unpleasant time in prison for a few decades, and b) that having your name cleared and getting some cash is better compensation than getting nothing at all is that almost everyone wrongly incarcerated seems to agree with these two premises. There is nothing that can *adequately* compensate for losing so many years of your life, but these exonerated people take the money and the freedom given the choice. As Caros said earlier, let's not let the search for the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:35
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Not that I agree with these people, but it seems that what they're trying to say, between mouthfuls of Flamin' Hot Cheetos is: "Why should we argue the merits of a societal function only on whether it might ever fail?" I think the analogy they're grasping for is something akin to, "Road construction projects often fail, and have caused deaths in America, but we only decide whether to build them based on whether they represent the will of the people."
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Jan 2, 2015 03:40
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blarzgh posted:Not that I agree with these people, but it seems that what they're trying to say, between mouthfuls of Flamin' Hot Cheetos is: "Why should we argue the merits of a societal function only on whether it might ever fail?" I think you are giving twodot way too much credit.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:43
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Pohl posted:Wait the guy spent 40 years in prison and all the judge had to say was that he should watch who he trusts? loving He said "because everybody will want a piece of you", so I assume he meant that in relation to the compensation money Jackson was paid Torka fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 03:46
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Because in civilised societies we believe that it is wrong to punish somebody for no reason. This means that if we do accidentally punish somebody for no reason, we attempt to compensate them to put them in the position that they would have been in had they not been punished for no reason. Sometimes we are not able to adequately compensate a person who has been punished for no reason, but this does not mean that our belief that it is wrong to punish somebody for no reason is not sincere, or that we do not consider that persons punished for no reason should be compensated. Its funny how everyone who have wrongly punished for no reason ended up having to fight lenghty court battles in order to be compensated. We do not attempt to compensate them. We fight them tooth and nail and eventually accept to give them a modest sum as a settlement for the promise that they will shut up about their experience. Also, for those who have been in prison unjustly, that experience is something they will never forget and will mess with them until they die. How many of those guys got bullied, beaten up or became someone's bitch? How much poo poo they they have to do not to be bullied, beaten up or become someone's bitch? How much crap have they seen in prison that might mess with their head. There are good arguments for and against the death penalty. No justice system will ever be perfect, but we can strive to make it as close to it as humanly possible.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:50
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Dalael posted:Its funny how everyone who have wrongly punished for no reason ended up having to fight lenghty court battles in order to be compensated. We do not attempt to compensate them. We fight them tooth and nail and eventually accept to give them a modest sum as a settlement for the promise that they will shut up about their experience. That depends on the state I think. Some of them are much bigger assholes about it than others. There are at least a couple where compensation is automatic.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:52
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Pohl posted:Wait the guy spent 40 years in prison and all the judge had to say was that he should watch who he trusts? loving Dude is walking into a society that's become completely alien to him with a big wad of cash, thats actually very sound advice.
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Jan 2, 2015 03:56
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I'm impressed that twodot was able to derail this thread for three pages even though he said he's against the death penalty in his first post. Do you guys really feel like you need to get the last word in your debate with someone who is basically performing the posting equivalent of obsessively stacking cans?
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Jan 2, 2015 04:44
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Helsing posted:I'm impressed that twodot was able to derail this thread for three pages even though he said he's against the death penalty in his first post. Do you guys really feel like you need to get the last word in your debate with someone who is basically performing the posting equivalent of obsessively stacking cans? Honestly? It was really just confusion on my part. I couldn't quite understand how his position could be quite so insane.
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Jan 2, 2015 04:46
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Caros posted:Honestly? It was really just confusion on my part. I couldn't quite understand how his position could be quite so insane. The problem with twodot's logic is that he doesn't understand that it's possible for something to be better than something else without being ideal. Like, he takes the fact that releasing someone from prison doesn't compensate them for their lost years (which is true) to mean that it's pointless to do anything since it's impossible to be ideally compensated. This is of course nonsense; it's still better to attempt to compensate someone for their prison time (in the form of giving them a better future, since obviously you can't travel back in time), even though it is not possible to completely make up for it. Basically his argument boils down to an incredibly convoluted way of saying "you can't change the past!" while pretending that the future doesn't exist or something. In case he's actually autistic, I would advise him to think about the issue in terms of the net quality of a person's entire life span. While a person who spends 20 years in prison and is released and a person who spends 20 years in prison before being put to death both have the same net value for years 0-20*, the net quality of of the entire lifespan would generally be higher for the person who is released and given millions of dollars in compensation. *Ignoring the whole "knowing they're going to die in 20 years" thing
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Jan 2, 2015 07:19
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blarzgh posted:Not that I agree with these people, but it seems that what they're trying to say, between mouthfuls of Flamin' Hot Cheetos is: "Why should we argue the merits of a societal function only on whether it might ever fail?" The real problem is an unwillingness or inability to recognize that just because people were discussing one problematic aspect of the death penalty does not mean that there aren't multiple factors at work in determining what forms of punishment are appropriate. Almost no public policy has a downside so severe that no conceivable benefit would outweigh it, so any condemnation of policy necessarily implies "and it has no benefits that offset these drawbacks"; acting like this implication is not there reeks of being willfully obtuse.
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Jan 2, 2015 11:03
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Though I get almost everyone here is opposed to the death penalty (and I I find myself in wholehearted agreement with them) are there any good arguments that I'm unaware of that can be made for it? Deterrence doesn't seem to be backed up by studies and having the state kill is vastly more expensive than life in prison. Is there any case to be made for it except on emotional grounds?
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Jan 2, 2015 11:44
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The race breakdown on that list is as follows:code:
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Jan 2, 2015 11:50
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Barlow posted:Though I get almost everyone here is opposed to the death penalty (and I I find myself in wholehearted agreement with them) are there any good arguments that I'm unaware of that can be made for it? Deterrence doesn't seem to be backed up by studies and having the state kill is vastly more expensive than life in prison. Is there any case to be made for it except on emotional grounds?
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Jan 2, 2015 11:57
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Mornacale posted:The real problem is an unwillingness or inability to recognize that just because people were discussing one problematic aspect of the death penalty does not mean that there aren't multiple factors at work in determining what forms of punishment are appropriate. Almost no public policy has a downside so severe that no conceivable benefit would outweigh it, so any condemnation of policy necessarily implies "and it has no benefits that offset these drawbacks"; acting like this implication is not there reeks of being willfully obtuse. Barlow posted:Though I get almost everyone here is opposed to the death penalty (and I I find myself in wholehearted agreement with them) are there any good arguments that I'm unaware of that can be made for it? Deterrence doesn't seem to be backed up by studies and having the state kill is vastly more expensive than life in prison. Is there any case to be made for it except on emotional grounds? I think the point people try to make in support of the Death Penalty is that it its not dependent on its utilitarianism to be proper. People would argue that lots of social programs have no utilitarian benefit, but are instead a function of a moral imperative, agreed upon by popular vote of the people of that State. They are trying to say, "because the people of the State of Texas believe capital punishment to be morally proper, the functional efficacy of it is not relevant."
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Jan 2, 2015 15:44
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I believe the imposition of the death penalty could be argued as a positive from certain historical perspectives. For example, I think the execution of Charles I was a wholly defensible and probably highly necessary historical moment. Likewise, I believe that the execution of a captured Adolph Hitler could have been justified. Not from a moral perspective per se, just from a sense of historical necessity. For ordinary citizens, I don't believe it is defensible under any circumstances, except perhaps in certain very dire war circumstances - but even then I am unconvinced.
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Jan 2, 2015 15:50
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Ytlaya posted:In case he's actually autistic, I would advise him to think about the issue in terms of the net quality of a person's entire life span. While a person who spends 20 years in prison and is released and a person who spends 20 years in prison before being put to death both have the same net value for years 0-20*, the net quality of of the entire lifespan would generally be higher for the person who is released and given millions of dollars in compensation.
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Jan 2, 2015 17:49
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Dalael posted:Its funny how everyone who have wrongly punished for no reason ended up having to fight lenghty court battles in order to be compensated. We do not attempt to compensate them. We fight them tooth and nail and eventually accept to give them a modest sum as a settlement for the promise that they will shut up about their experience. What's even worse than the state not being willing to compensate those who were wrongly convicted of crimes they did not commit is that the state hardly ever goes after the crooked cops, prosecutors, witnesses, judges, etc. that put the innocent into that situation. Prosecutorial misconduct is treated like a slap on the wrist even though a person's life has been ruined. Ken Anderson only had to serve 5 days and was disbarred, while Michael Morton languished in prison for 25 years for a crime he didn't commit. (Oh, and just as an added bonus on that poo poo sundae, Anderson had, originally, a 10 day sentence, but was released early for good behavior and can get his law license reinstated in 3 years.)
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Jan 2, 2015 22:09
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Pohl posted:How many people have to tell you that you are an idiot before you get a clue? Wow, good argument. You certainly convinced me.
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Jan 2, 2015 22:28
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Caros posted:Your posts sure do. What does the appeal matter, we can't give these people back the time we've taken from them, and clearly future prospects don't figure into your equations. No he was pretty obviously saying that neither you killing him or just beating him can be taken back. Therefore it makes no sense to say death is different because it's the only punishment that can't be taken back. Stopping the pipe beating is not taking it back, although it's still preferable to death.
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Jan 2, 2015 22:39
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Which is semantics considering Caros overall point. Hence why people are confused.
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Jan 2, 2015 22:42
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:No he was pretty obviously saying that neither you killing him or just beating him can be taken back. Therefore it makes no sense to say death is different because it's the only punishment that can't be taken back. Stopping the pipe beating is not taking it back, although it's still preferable to death. Yeah, but it clearly is different. If I beat you with a pipe you'll heal and go on with your life. If I beat you to the point of serious injury you'll still go on with your life. If I put you in prison for thirty years, guess what, you still can have some sort of a life when you get out. If I execute you.... there is nothing. You can't get better from it, you can't move on from it because excluding metaphysical discussions that are outside the scope of this discussion death is the end. I'm not arguing that those punishments aren't lovely, simply that there is a significant qualitative difference between a punishment that can be stopped or repaid in some fashion, and the death penalty which absolutely cannot.
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Jan 2, 2015 22:46
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kierrie posted:Wow, good argument. You certainly convinced me. Excellent! I'm glad I could help.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:19
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Jarmak posted:Dude is walking into a society that's become completely alien to him with a big wad of cash, thats actually very sound advice. Yeah, but he spent 40 years in prison so I'm pretty sure he knows he can't trust anyone. I don't know why, but I just found it to be a really 'gently caress you' thing. He could have just sat the guy down in his chambers and given him a big talk about how crazy life was going to be. While they were actually in court, the judge should have been loving apologizing.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:25
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"Derrick Frazier" posted:Yes I do. Debbie, my Baby, I love you; do you know I love you. You are my life. You are my wife - always stay strong. Stay strong everybody. I am innocent. I am being punished for a crime I did not commit. I have professed my innocence for nine years, and I continue to say I am innocent. Let my people know I love them. We must continue on. Do not give up the fight; do not give up hope for a better future. Because we can make it happen. I love you, I love my son, and I love my daughter. Bruno, Chuckie, Juanita, Ray - I love you, all of you. Stay strong baby. I love you forever. Date of Execution: August 31, 2006 Summary of Incident On June 26, 1997, Frazier and one co-defendant burglarized a private residence. Then they took the property and went next door to a residence where a white female was alone with her son. The victim offered them a ride into town and when she went out to start her vehicle, Frazier followed her. When she went back into the house, he shot her in the face with a 9-millimeter handgun. He then shot her again in the back of the head. The co-defendant shot the son one time in the head and three more times in the chest and abdominal area with a 9-millimeter handgun. Frazier and the co-defendant then took Nutt’s pickup and fled the scene. Co-Defendants Jermain Herron Race and Gender of Victim White Female and White Male
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Jan 2, 2015 23:31
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His Co-Defendant: Jermaine Herron Police later discovered much of the stolen property in either Frazier or Herron’s possession. When police searched the apartment of Jermaine Herron’s girlfriend, investigators recovered Betsy Nutt’s cell phone and a 9-millimeter handgun also stolen from the Ranch owners’ home. Firearms experts determined the gun was the murder weapon. Further, both Frazier and Herron provided a videotaped statements admitting to the crime, Herron specifically admitted to murdering Cody Nutt. Final Words: "Yes sir. To Mr. Jerry Nutt, I just hope this brings some kind of peace to your family. I wish I could bring them back, but I can't. I hope my death brings peace; don't hang on to the hate. Momma, stay strong. Lord forgive me for my sins because here I come. Let's go, Warden." Final Meal: Sirloin steak, spicy worcestershire sauce, a bacon cheeseburger w/ten slices of bacon, onion rings and fries w/cheese, french dressing, a butterfinger blizzard w/carmel, pecan pie, vanilla ice cream and peach cobbler.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:35
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Brief Aside: There is a person who maintains and updates Murderpedia.org regularly.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:38
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