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ManMythLegend posted:The problem is that unions at this point no longer protect laborers, they protect labor systems. So instead of encouraging their folks to get educated and expand their skill sets to make themselves more competitive in a rapidly changing economy, they work to renegotiate contracts and inflate wages under the guise of helping out true blue Americans or whatever. Now that they are looking down the barrel of modernization, which is going to happen whether they like it or not, they have a pool of labor that is unable to move to another sector. In a way they're doing a disservice to laborers by not encouraging them to branch out, but in another way they're doing a service to them by preventing the growth of a competing sector that would be magnitudes more competitive. How much does it really benefit workers to adopt practices that cause unemployment and wage deflation? Is cutting $3k off the price of a car necessary or worth it in the long run? Maybe obstructionism could give us another 100 years of longshoremen and auto workers. Maybe 100 years from now social conditions will be better. What we do know is that right now, and likely for at least a decade in the future, poo poo sucks for the worker when they're looking down the barrel of modernization.
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Jan 6, 2015 02:51
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:ok so it takes 10 years to permanently end thousands of jobs forever Is that how long we researched the atom bombs we shipped to japan?
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Jan 6, 2015 03:25
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ManMythLegend posted:pay a whole punch of people 6+ figures to just sit around and not do anything just to stick it to some coporate fat cats. I'm all for sticking it to the man, but those millions could be better spent forcing the rich into a Thunderdome type situation.
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Jan 6, 2015 03:47
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chemosh6969 posted:Is that how long we researched the atom bombs we shipped to japan? the US jobs creation program (codenamed Fat Man) employed tens of thousands for a decade of reconstruction
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Jan 6, 2015 03:51
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Maybe obstructionism could give us another 100 years of longshoremen and auto workers. Maybe 100 years from now social conditions will be better. What we do know is that right now, and likely for at least a decade in the future, poo poo sucks for the worker when they're looking down the barrel of modernization. I'm not saying things are fantastic right now, but compare the average working conditions for blue collar workers now versus 100 years ago and I think you'll find they've improved substantially. Point being that if the trend continues (and there's no reason to believe it won't), things will only continue to improve from a safety and quality of life standpoint. psydude fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 03:52
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psydude posted:I'm not saying things are fantastic right now, but compare the average working conditions for blue collar workers now versus 100 years ago and I think you'll find they've improved substantially. They have but it doesn't take long for working conditions/benefits to slide if you're not busting your rear end to maintain them
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Jan 6, 2015 03:54
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:They have but it doesn't take long for working conditions/benefits to slide if you're not busting your rear end to maintain them That goes for everything in life, not just the working class. Only a select few people in the world get to sit on their rear end and enjoy a cushy life. Yes, many have it much easier than others, but everything is relative and the average blue collar worker and even white collar worker isn't making anywhere near what the longshoremen make.
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Jan 6, 2015 03:59
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psydude posted:I'm not saying things are fantastic right now, but compare the average working conditions for blue collar workers now versus 100 years ago and I think you'll find they've improved substantially. Point being that if the trend continues (and there's no reason to believe it won't), things will only continue to improve from a safety and quality of life standpoint. Past 100 years is bullshit, cut that into 1910-1960 and 1960-2010s and you get a whole different outlook.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:02
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ManMythLegend posted:Because maintaining horrendously bloated and broken systems just to "protect blue collar workers" is why myself and, and most Americans, hate labor unions and organized labor in general. The excuse that they are hard working, true Americans TM is a smokescreen to try and distract people from the fact that they legitimately impede efficiency and modernization, and are more about keeping the made men made then anything else. The global shipping industry in particular is already convoluted enough. Fighting against the tide is stupid.  I also want robots to take over the longshore men. But only because I want all the robot operators, programmers, maintainers and supervisors to unionize, and demand for better and fair wages just to spite you. Also LOL that you think the union is bloated and broken in an industry that way more bloated, broken and convoluted. But those poor loving companies having to pay their workers more, therefore raising the price of goods and ergo making me pay more for my mountain dew and Cheetos. 
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Jan 6, 2015 04:32
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ElMaligno posted:If the global sea going shipping industry wasn't insanely loving rich and convoluted as gently caress, this would be a pretty good argument. They aren't, at least right now. They're cutting capacity right now because it is so cheap to ship a container that they aren't making anything on the transit. ManMythLegend posted:The problem is that unions at this point no longer protect laborers, they protect labor systems. So instead of encouraging their folks to get educated and expand their skill sets to make themselves more competitive in a rapidly changing economy, they work to renegotiate contracts and inflate wages under the guise of helping out true blue Americans or whatever. Now that they are looking down the barrel of modernization, which is going to happen whether they like it or not, they have a pool of labor that is unable to move to another sector. This is a fact. Labor unions do not exist to protect labor from the predations of capital. They exist to further the existence of organized labor. ManMythLegend posted:The excuse that they are hard working, true Americans TM is a smokescreen to try and distract people from the fact that they legitimately impede efficiency and modernization American ports are amongst the slowest in the world. So...not only will the SSLs see cost savings, they will see appreciable efficiency gains(both in vessel turn around times and terminal operations). Its a slam dunk win-win for everyone but the longshoremen.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:33
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:ok so it takes 10 years to permanently end thousands of jobs forever and you replace the individual jobs that take 50 men with jobs that take 6 robot technicians They're not holding stuff off at all, they're speeding it up by demanding way more than their labor is worth
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Jan 6, 2015 04:34
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I'm a huge fan of universal healthcare, a high minimum wage, and heavily subsidized post-secondary vocational training and education, especially as it pertains to the "what do we do with these people when their jobs are replaced by robots?" question. Despite the obvious benefits to their constituents, unions don't seem too keen to adopt any of these things as their platform.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:38
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maffew buildings posted:I'm just upset I didn't become a longshoreman to get that sweet salary/comp package, drive a big truck and listen to Mellencamp man I mean this is more or less the reason I went to sea in the first place, it offered much more money for my time than just about anything else I could conceivably do given that I'm way too retarded for real engineering
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Jan 6, 2015 04:40
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oh loving christ i'm sorry i d&d'd it up in here hey n4i probate me for my retardedness
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Jan 6, 2015 04:42
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Two Finger posted:oh loving christ i'm sorry i d&d'd it up in here Probate El Maligno for being a loving commie as well
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Jan 6, 2015 04:43
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i mean lol@poors but it's retarded to pretend that the fact everyone goes WHY DO THEY EARN SO MUCH is anything other than a product of a very clever bit of social engineering by the wealthy the exact same happened in auckland a few years back when the ports had a strike, over their working hours (and the fact that people didn't have regular schedules so they couldn't have a life), the ports took out massive full page ads in all the major newspapers talking about how well paid they were compared to other workers goddamned slam dunk because then everyone else hated them for earning decent money n4i seriously probate me this is all my fault
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Jan 6, 2015 04:44
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When the gently caress did dock workers started being called longshoreman? Holy gently caress, that's churching that poo poo up. I need to get in on that. I'm not medically retired, I'm a longcouchman, because I'm on my couch and have a big dick.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:46
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MassivelyBuckNegro posted:Probate El Maligno for being a loving commie as well Oh poo poo, errr... Oh yeah its big government fault! If we had less maritime regulations we would be #1 in shipping in the work. Ron Paul 2012
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Jan 6, 2015 04:48
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MassivelyBuckNegro posted:Probate El Maligno for being a loving brown as well
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Jan 6, 2015 04:49
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Not gonna read any of that poo poo lol. I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:54
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:
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Jan 6, 2015 04:57
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ElMaligno posted:
Right, so again, your position solely consists of "gently caress corporations". Got it. Thank you for your useful contributions to this discussion.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:58
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What happened to dead ISIS and Russians? I'm already up to date with the fact that anyone without a high degree of continued learning is going to be sucking service economy cock you non STEM dickweevils.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:01
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not caring here posted:When the gently caress did dock workers started being called longshoreman? Holy gently caress, that's churching that poo poo up. I need to get in on that. since like the 1800s. Labor forever bourgie sympathizers against the wall.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:02
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ManMythLegend posted:Right, so again, your position solely consists of "gently caress corporations". Got it. Thank you for your useful contributions to this discussion. Peep the URL bro
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Jan 6, 2015 05:04
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Hey veins, thanks for linking that article about port automation, that's actually really useful for my work as it happens. Do any of you know if the longshoremen are on multiemployer pension plans? Right now the PBGC's multiemployer pension guarantee fund is completely screwed and will run out of money sometime in the 2020s. But that could happen sooner if a whole bunch of current participants all get laid off at once--for example, if the west coast ports all decide to lay off 50% of their workforce in 2016 as they automate. fake e: looks like a bunch of them do and, as is typical for multiemployer plans, many are endangered http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/criticalstatusnotices.html
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Jan 6, 2015 05:06
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Godholio posted:With a sprinkle of dried placenta because
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Jan 6, 2015 05:22
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or something.
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ManMythLegend posted:Right, so again, your position solely consists of "gently caress corporations". Got it. Thank you for your useful contributions to this discussion. Which is a nice contrast to your "gently caress the unions" position. I do agree that we need automated ports and that this well drive out the longshoremen out their jobs. The point you are missing is that this will take a huge amount of capital, parts and more importantly people. You will never EVER be able to make something 100% free of human involvement. You will need engineers, programmers, operators and supervisors to operate that machinery. This is all good, efficient and dandy, but what if they decide to unionize and ask for fair or even better wages? Or even if they unionize for better protection? Machines are not infallible and there will be accidents or delays because of them. Since you cant just fire a machine, who are you going to fire? The person that was operating that machine? The supervisor and his lack of oversight? Or are you going to sue the company that made or even programmed that robot for lack in foresight that accidents or even a flaw in their programming would come out? But what if this is too expensive for the corporations and they decide to pay the longshoreman more because its the cheaper short-term solutions to their problems? Just stating "gently caress the union lets get some robots" is not a loving solution.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:26
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not caring here posted:When the gently caress did dock workers started being called longshoreman? Holy gently caress, that's churching that poo poo up. I need to get in on that. Longshoremen work on docks, dockworkers work on trucks.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:27
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ElMaligno posted:Which is a nice contrast to your "gently caress the unions" position. I do agree that we need automated ports and that this well drive out the longshoremen out their jobs. The point you are missing is that this will take a huge amount of capital, parts and more importantly people. You will never EVER be able to make something 100% free of human involvement. You will need engineers, programmers, operators and supervisors to operate that machinery. At no point in my posts did I say I thought that the new operators and staff shouldn't have some sort of organization to ensure they receive competitive wages and a safe working environment. However the longshoremen and their union are a prime example of what a bad union looks like. Defending them is dumb and bad.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:37
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ManMythLegend posted:At no point in my posts did I say I thought that the new operators and staff shouldn't have some sort of organization to ensure they receive competitive wages and a safe working environment. I concur I work on a boat that works the Columbia River most of the time and those guys are 'tarded. Look at what was going on in recent history down around Longview for instance... http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2013/07/longshore_picketing_at_portlan.html Or how they like to vandalize non-Union members vehicles who aren't even competing for their jobs but continue to work in support roles... Tugboat crews and the like. Some fuckers even tried to derail train cars a few years back iirc...
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Jan 6, 2015 05:54
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Most people who argue in favor of increased automation contrary to the desires of labor unions fail to consider the logical consequence of that, which is way more unemployed people in a country without much of a social safety net and a recipe for unrest They invented a whole term for how wrong this statement is and called it the luddite fallacy. Thats literally never happened. Also 'pay me exorbinant amounts of money or violence will occur' isnt a compelling argument. RonMexicosPitbull fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 05:57
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ElMaligno posted:Which is a nice contrast to your "gently caress the unions" position. I do agree that we need automated ports and that this well drive out the longshoremen out their jobs. The point you are missing is that this will take a huge amount of capital, parts and more importantly people. You will never EVER be able to make something 100% free of human involvement. You will need engineers, programmers, operators and supervisors to operate that machinery. It's like you didn't read any of the articles, have any knowledge of whats going on in the ports, and just want to argue about how unions are good. 1- The ILWU doesn't want to pay any portion of healtcare costs beyond what they already do(a $1 copay) 2- The ILWU wants jurisdiction over all waterfront jobs. When the SSLs stopped providing chassis and sold them to 3rd party chassis providers(chassis being the wheels that containers ride on), the ILWU lost some mechanic jobs on the docks. The chassis pools have no interest in paying ILWU wages for chassis work. The ILWU also want the mechanic jobs from 2 other waterfront unions to maintain the equipment. Those are the issues. The PMA and ILWU have no dispute over a moderate increase in wages. They also haven't raised any issues over automation at this time. Today, the PMA and ILWU have agreed to federal mediation. Automation, in and of itself, doesn't remove human interaction from the loading/unloading operation. Depending on what model the individual terminal chooses to pursue, automation may mean humans are relocated to a central control room and monitor several stacking cranes while still operating straddle carriers/hostler trucks(or, like Rotterdam, do not directly operate the straddle carriers/hostler trucks). In either case, the people that monitor those several stacking cranes/whathaveyou would still probably be ILWU workers. Some Frequently Asked Questions about the ILWU-PMA labor dispute http://pastebin.com/2FNPbikK Chassis Maintenance and repair a main culprit of ILWU-PMA impasse http://pastebin.com/nmBz6se6
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Jan 6, 2015 06:02
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RonMexicosPitbull posted:They invented a whole term for how wrong this statement is and called it the luddite fallacy. Thats literally never happened. Also 'pay me exorbinant amounts of money or violence will occur' isnt a compelling argument. gently caress the "heh did they ask the horse breeders before henry ford invented the assembly line" bullshit when not paired with all the various factors like "hey they lose their jobs but mass transportation legitimately provides jobs for way more people and blows our economy out of the stratosphere" if you can make the same argument for automation in automobile assembly and poo poo then go ahead, i'm all for it. saving a few bucks and putting some money in the company owner's pockets doesn't actually amount to that much in terms of world good though. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 06:06
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:gently caress the "heh did they ask the horse breeders before henry ford invented the assembly line" bullshit when not paired with all the various factors like "hey they lose their jobs but mass transportation legitimately provides jobs for way more people and blows our economy out of the stratosphere" Come on think about it. Who benefits from having a highly efficient and cheap ports? Everyone except the manual dock laborors who strongarmed themselves to 200+k salaries. They're the 1% you seem so desperate to stick it too. The most common way the loss of those specific jobs is the increase in aggregate demand of that product(in this case, cheap and efficient import/export of gooods) in all industires leading to the creation of cheaper and more (read more jobs) goods being made. You'd legit win a Nobel in Economics if you could prove a new technology increased unemployment its that out there to even suggest it dude. Its never happened. Heres some basic reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite_fallacy RonMexicosPitbull fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 06:10
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I'm not going to read your wikipedia article that's some D&D bullshit you pullin How does automation and such increase employment, how about you argue that because I can pretty confidently argue that the jobs created in automation upkeep are not greater than the jobs lost by implementing automation
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Jan 6, 2015 06:17
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Every time we modernize an industry with technology, a bunch of jobs go poof and a shitload of slightly less useful jobs spring up afterwards. 100 years ago people were dying in coal mines, now we spend 40 hours a week clicking colored bubbles in spreadsheets, sharing xkcd comics and bitching that the office vpn won't traffic porn or SA. We could have 10 hour work weeks to sustain most of society's needs like food, medicine, energy, etc. but instead we all loving jerk each other off over mastering a system of chasing after white collar jobs that, for most hours of the day, adds no value to anything. That's a little bit fight club but you get the point. Kill all the longshoremen and let robots take over. When algorithmic 5th dimensional energy AIs can transfer cargo even more efficiently in 2179 the robot maintainers' union will protest the same bullshit all over again, meanwhile that era's turbomillenials will be competing for paid janitorial internships to study the art of tweeting CEO farts on paid snapchat ads. Nuclear war please.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:18
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:I'm not going to read your wikipedia article that's some D&D bullshit you pullin Dont then I explained it fine. Read what I wrote. The loss in those specific jobs is usually accompanied by a large increase in aggregate demand. This specific example is hilariously easy. The ports, who benefits from having cheap and efficient import/export? Every company and consumer on planet Earth. Technological improvements do not lead to an increase in unemployment its the closest thing to a sure thing there is man. If you think thats such an easy statement to disprove I suggest you write it up because you'd win a the Nobel prize in economics which is like a million dollars. RonMexicosPitbull fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 06:21
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actually gently caress reading what you wrote i suspect you're a white and probably favor cops
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Jan 6, 2015 06:22
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Won't somebody please think of the Roombas??
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