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Two extras for tonight. First, I'll include subtitles on any future videos, but if anybody just wants to watch the gameplay without my commentary, here it is for the first update  Second (and actual NEW content!) First supplemental video - more info on the Big Bad Wolf!  I'm on a kick this weekend, so the next update is comin' soon! Bacter fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 03:49
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I caught a stream of this a while back. Didn't get to see much of it, but I'm a little ahead of the LP, so I'll keep most comments about it to myself until we've caught up to what I've seen. I really dug that last video you put up, although you didn't really get into why stories like these have stuck around for as long as they have. That answer is kind of obvious though: they still ring true. The Three Little Pigs is a story about putting the effort into doing the job right and being rewarded for it. Little Red Riding Hood is a cautionary tale about trying to keep yourself to places that are "safe", and to be guarded around people you don't know, because they may just want to hurt you. Just tonight my youngest was trying to get her big sister in trouble by telling us she was hitting her when it was clear that wasn't happening at all, and my wife told her about The Boy Who Cried Wolf. These stories were made up as a way to instill a lesson in small children who have a much better attention span when they are being entertained than when they are being lectured to. In those days the Wolf was literal: There were things out there beyond the torchlight that took pleasure in dragging you screaming into the night. Now the Wolf wears clothes, swaps pictures and stories with other Wolves on I like to imagine a future where a thoroughly confused small child is read the Little Red Riding Hood story. She has trouble relating to it because, living on a space station near Titan, her only interaction with nature has been fuzzy archival holograms of Earth and the small plush wolf she cuddles at night.
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Jan 18, 2015 06:22
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It's worth noting that the woodsman, as a figure, doesn't appear in Red Riding Hood until the brothers Grimm got to it; Perrault just left her in the wolf's belly, but earlier variations left the young girl (Perrault also was the first variation we find to insert a specifically red hood -- like the glass slipper, his embellishments speak a lot to the versions of fairytales we recognize. Power to those who write stuff down.) to fend for herself, or maybe with the help of a passer-by she finds on her escape. Not super-relevant to wolf talk, but it's an interesting thing (also interesting: so much cannibalism). That said, the brothers didn't invent the woodsman out of whole cloth -- they just sort of took his actions from another fairy tale, "The Wolf and the Seven Young Kids," where the savior of the kids (in the goat sense) eaten by the wolf is their mother and youngest sibling. Also of note is the fact that The Wolf isn't, in Red Riding hood variations, always a wolf -- you see archetypes of the false grandmother figure in China, for example, with a tiger, or variations with ogres from pretty much all corners. On the werewolf front, sometimes the wolf actually is, directly, a werewolf.
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Jan 18, 2015 07:07
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Is this game currently free for PS+ members? Heard a lot of great things about it and watched a little of the LP but I think I would rather enjoy it for myself before seeing another persons take on it.
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Jan 18, 2015 07:18
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Hey Bacter, your link to the no-commentary video goes to the picture, not the youtube.
SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 07:48
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RickVoid posted:These stories were made up as a way to instill a lesson in small children who have a much better attention span when they are being entertained than when they are being lectured to. In those days the Wolf was literal: There were things out there beyond the torchlight that took pleasure in dragging you screaming into the night. Now the Wolf wears clothes, swaps pictures and stories with other Wolves on And again, that's not going into the huge mess that is psychological interpretation of fairy tales and their longevity, the way they deal with various facets of being human on a non-conscious level. edit: VVV Actually, the Grimm brothers have some pretty drat grim (sorry) stories too; they really just wanted to collect for posterity. It's the endless filtering and revisions that got us the rated E for everyone fairy tales as we understand them now. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 08:04
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anilEhilated posted:I mostly agree there with one exception: fairy tales weren't originally intended for children. The one message most of them share is that "evil doesn't prevail" and that's something peasants needed to remind themselves of constantly; another one is the supposed existence of good and caring nobility. The general cutesification and focus to children (and children-accessible props and interpretations) came with the spread of public education. It's interesting if you dig up some local European fairytales, not just big ones that became collected and cross-cultural: they underwent a lot less change and you'll find that evil is often represented by soldiers or devils as opposed to the politically correct dragons and big bad wolves - characters with more layers of meaning to adults, not children. Okay, yeah. Not going back far enough on my side. That's totally the roots. I guess I was thinking of the more modernized versions of the stories, post Grimm's.
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Jan 18, 2015 08:11
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Well, yes, that's very true about a lot of fables not really just being for children. People almost always learn something better, or understand an idea you want to convey better, with a story. How would you teach someone that wolves are afraid of fire? "Once, I was in the woods, carrying a torch, and I saw a wolf. I swung my branch at it, and it ran away." Myths and legends can basically be explained as stories that tell people how things work. It's not quite enough for us to say there's a blanket over the sky with holes in it. It was hummingbird who flew up and poked the stars into the blanket the gods had put down as punishment. Aesop's fables teaching about how to be good, the myths of Ancient Rome, Greece, and China, the fables of Europe trying to teach you morality, the tall tales of America showing what made a man a man, horror movies showing what is just and what should frighten us. The parables of Jesus, the personal stories on the Torah, the Dialogs of Plato. Any writing or presentation class spends time talking about using examples and analogies to help make your point. Science has many problems because of anecdotal data that lots of people have trouble discounting, even though it's likely wrong. It's part of us as people. Which begs the question here, what defines a fable? We sort of have an idea where the game decided to go: European fairy tales and especially ones that have been made for children, but would Aladdin and the Forty Thieves make the cut? Or the Princess and the Pea? Or the lion with the thorn in it's paw? (I'm just going to assume there won't be a lot of Asian, African, or Native American stories aren't in here, nor capital M myths like Zeus and Odin and such) Don't think we'll get an answer, but it would help define the space of suspects and ideas to look for.
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Jan 18, 2015 17:56
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Well, the game seems to go for euro-american chidren's stories for reference, so my guess would be no Arabian stuff. Although now I can just imagine this forty-man mob: "Mister Ali Baba sends his regards, it'd be such a shame if something happened to your lamp shop..."
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Jan 18, 2015 18:08
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There are areas of the world the Fables come from for myths and stories from other cultures, but the comic and the game basically concern themselves with the European stuff. So it exists, it's just never focused on.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:09
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HeadGrenade posted:Which begs the question here, what defines a fable? We sort of have an idea where the game decided to go: European fairy tales and especially ones that have been made for children, but would Aladdin and the Forty Thieves make the cut? Or the Princess and the Pea? Or the lion with the thorn in it's paw? (I'm just going to assume there won't be a lot of Asian, African, or Native American stories aren't in here, nor capital M myths like Zeus and Odin and such) Don't think we'll get an answer, but it would help define the space of suspects and ideas to look for. That's getting into "Where did these things come from?" territory. Do they exist because we made up stories about them, and our collective belief created their world? Or do we tell stories about them because of a metaphysical shared subconscious that somehow caused us to learn about the stories of their world? Perhaps their world was a parallel dimension, sitting next to our own, and it's the fact that they're in a reality they don't belong to that is making them so much more difficult to kill. I like the multiple dimensions (or Many Worlds) theory best, since it would allow for the other stories that didn't make the cut here to have their own world where their stories are playing out, and they just haven't had the sort of situation crop up that caused our Fables to become inter-dimensional refugees. If the Fables exist, then there's no real reason why Ra, Odin, Amaterasu, etc couldn't have their own parallel world. Although I would say that there really isn't any reason why Aladdin, the Princess and the Pea, or the lion with the thorn couldn't be in this group already (although I imagine the lion is on the Farm, the Princess owns a mattress store or tests them for a living, and Aladdin drives a cab). EDIT: Took too long writing this, didn't know their world or dimension already had a place for it. I still stand by the above.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:20
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Well, that they are considered part of it in the comic makes me happy, and it's what I expected; the best bits of these reboot/crossover stories tends to be the weird ones that nobody expected or knows. I too like the multiple worlds theory, as it has some interesting implication, and you make a good point of the ideas. I was mostly just talking about where the series defines it, to get a sense what might get included. Still, good stuff. HeadGrenade fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 18:41
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The comic actually goes into this a bit, so I'll answer. Also, I'm not putting this in spoiler tags because it doesn't really ruin anything from the game - when I say no discussing the comics without spoiler tags, what I'm really trying to avoid is discussion of characters that are in the game AND the comic, thus spoiling that they'll survive the game. Anyway: the reason the Fables are in New York is that the Adversary took over their homelands. The Adversary has not yet conquered ALL homelands, and alternates between times of expansion and conquest, and times of consolidation. During the game (and comic series), it's towards the end of a time of consolidation, and the next expansion looks to be against the Arabian homelands. Meaning they're still in their homelands. Most fables tend to not believe THEIR land could ever fall, so if they haven't been forced out, they'll stay in place. MEANWHILE, PART 2!  One of the things that I really enjoy about the game are the varieties of "moral choices". Let me explain - there are your standard "are we a good guy or a jerK' choices. And those ABSOLUTELY are plot relevant! They'll color how we're seen by others, you've doubtlessly seen the "X will remember that" markers in the corner. How people feel about you will absolutely effect their actions and willingness to help and etc. That kind of moral choice is a slow build - who are you by the end of the game, when everything Really Matters? There are ALSO these other choices, and to my mind, these are much better moral choices. The good/bad Bigby is just character building - that's you deciding who you want your character to be. THESE decisions, and they're usually obvious branching paths, really show what you value as a person. "Do we lie to Beauty" was another such moment - I wouldn't say that not lying to beast is 100% the clear moral choice. It's what I'D do, because I value honesty, but maybe you value loyalty more, and Honesty vs. Loyalty is a much more interesting moral choice than "good vs bad". SO IT'S VOTE TIME, MY DROOGS (vote choice is obviously spoiler'd, because it's in the same post as the update, but don't spoiler-tag your votes) Moral component Moral choice: Do we go to Toad, a guy we know, with a kid at his house, whose place is being ransacked by "somebody"? Or do we help out Prince Lawrence, a husband who's clearly had a rough go of it and was slouched in a chair with a bloody knife by him? Investigation component Lawerence is our best lead for the identity of Faith., so if you're more interested than that you should go there. The Woodsman might be at Toad's, and it's at least his stuff that's being rooted through. So if we're interested in HIM, go to Toad's. Bacter fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 19:35
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I recently found this thread. Maybe leave a note in your Discworld thread for those interested? Anyway, I've read much of the comic series (and some of the spin-offs) and I'm interested to see more of these characters. As for voting, I say we go help out Toad. As Sheriff we should protect the peace.
Mraagvpeine fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 19:53
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Go to Toad's first. It was the last place Faith was seen, maybe going through the apartment will yield clues. And, to me, Prince Lawrence seemed a little dead what with him slouched in a chain with a bloody knife. Might as well try to prevent any more Fables from eating it.
SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 20:17
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Incidentally, there isnt a "right" or "wrong", though one option might be more illuminating. If anybody was wondering, and I'm no Way implying anything about the choice or it's consequences, on my first playthrough I went to Toad's.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:28
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Bacter posted:don't spoiler-tag your votes Toad's. We already caused him enough problems in the last day, what with his car and all. Moreover, Faith's circumstances seem to have gone well beyond mere prostitution. When we asked her what she was doing at the Woodsman's apartment, her response was forced -- "These lips are sealed." This could be our chance to find out more about what was really going on there, now that we know her reply was forced, not merely her being coy.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:28
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Go to Toad's, there's no way it's as simple as "the husband did it". Plus I figure we owe him for the car. Interesting reveal about Faith; we got that fairy tale but it doesn't seem to be connected to anything she mentioned so far. Also not sure if the name is relevant, since that doesn't appear in the fable at all...? Also, despite being a filthy European savage I managed to place Ichabod Crane but where the hell does Buffin come from? anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 20:47
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Go to Lawrence's apartment first.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:48
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anilEhilated posted:Also, despite being a filthy European savage I managed to place Ichabod Crane but where the hell does Buffin come from? We're off to see the wizard~
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Jan 18, 2015 20:49
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Waffleman_ posted:We're off to see the wizard~ In my defense, it's been a long time since I saw that movie. Another little thing I recalled: the version of the fable I know, Faith's fur coat was made out of mouse skins, not donkey. Probably irrelevant but who knows.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:55
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I'd say go to Toad's. Fables are tough, so it's not as if the Prince is going to be bleeding out any time soon. I think?
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Jan 18, 2015 21:08
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All right, new update! Also, VINDICA-- wait, I was wrong? Wow, didn't see that coming since the moment I said what I thought. Donkeyskin hits that "betcha didn't know this one" feeling I was really hoping for. I love the way Bufkin reads the story and the moment in the middle where everyone gets really uncomfortable. It's all very humanizing.anilEhilated posted:Another little thing I recalled: the version of the fable I know, Faith's fur coat was made out of mouse skins, not donkey. Probably irrelevant but who knows. Probably irrelevent, not because it's not in the story, but now that they've changed it to be donkeys, they won't rewrite their own versions. At the same time, it's a cool detail. HeadGrenade fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:09
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Ok, so it's wasn't the ribbon that made Faith's lips "sealed", it's a general enchantment. Let's go help Toad then, because the topic of what Faith wanted in Woodsman's appartment came under the "sealed lips" clause, so a guy ransacking the place is obviously very relevant to the goings on.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:17
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"rear end' Skin" sounds like "Asking", as in a sex-worker "asking" Johns if they're interested. At least, that's how I'm seeing the connection. Also, maybe the blue-goatee man is Bluebeard? - From the tale where a woman marries the titular Bluebeard, is told to never look in a closet, looks in the closet and finds the previous murdered wives of Bluebeard, Bluebeard tries to kill her for it, and her brothers save her by killing Bluebeard. Let's go to Toad - there's a crime a-happening right there right now, it looks like the crime with Lawrence has happened a while a go. LashLightning fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:18
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LashLightning posted:"rear end' Skin" sounds like "Asking", as in a sex-worker "asking" Johns if they're interested. At least, that's how I'm seeing the connection. Bluebeard -was- one of the names you could drop when Crane asked if you had any leads.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:20
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Yeah, but being a killer in a fable alone doesn't really make for a viable suspect. See: Bigby.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:22
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Lawrence, I think I mean, you know. Because there's blood involved and there's a murderer on the loose. That's probably significant enough to be worth treating with urgency. Also, the version I first heard, the fur cloak was made from one of every animal in the kingdom, so that's another variation for the pile. D3m3 fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:23
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You know, the one thing I'm really, really enjoying on this playthrough is noticing how the game guides you to certain clues and, heh, not to others. Not that they aren't there, or interesting! Anyway I'll shut up about THAT. So I'm absolutely not here to handhold the speculations or guide you guys, but I will say, if you'll remember on Bigby's desk we got a quick sweep of some files...  Anybody remember what Bluebeard's thing was in his fable? (but DO note what anilEhilated said!)
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Jan 18, 2015 21:26
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Honestly I'm surprised Bluebeard is a thing, I thought that was a throwaway simpsons joke.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:01
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Great LP so far Bacter! Also looking forward to being a super rear end in a top hat later on. I vote we go for Toad because that's a crime in progress, we can beat the answers out of Prince Bloodyknife later on.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:03
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Um, bigger question: Do we actually know that this is Faith? I went back and looked, because the ring just felt odd to me, Changed my mind: We should go see Prince Lawrence. There's something not right about this. Side note: Video 2, 22:10. Seems like someone has something to hide . . . and friends in high places. Edit: No, wait, scratch that, she isn't wearing the ring at first, but she puts it on out on the street. One of the things she does before taking out a cigarette. Still, I think this case takes priority. HeadGrenade fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 22:09
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Wasn't wearing it?
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Jan 18, 2015 22:16
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I'm wary of the whole identity thing for another reason: glamors. We can't take appearances for granted. I guess we'll find out whether a fable can look like another fable?
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Jan 18, 2015 22:18
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If we wanted to be SUSPICIOUS of faith, didn't she, uh, check the Woodsman for stuff and then make a big show of throwing away some coins? And saying "Nothing", and pointing out to you a couple times that he didn't have anything? So I'm going to try to avoid doing a lot of psychic stuff, but some little things, like, say, not giving Faith the money, I'll probably do. I absolutely gave Faith the cash the first time through, but now we can put it to better use!  Edit: I'm not sayin' that I'm spoilin' anything, just pointing out that she wasn't wearing her ring in the apartment, then she checks the Woodsman, loudly exclaims to us that he didn't have anything, and then she DID have the ring. (this seriously isn't intended as a spoiler - I'm just offering a conclusion that can be drawn.) Bacter fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 22:22
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Nice try Bacter; either you're spoiling the fact that she wanted something other than money, or you expected us to forget that he owed her a hundred dollars, which was what she went into his wallet for, ostensibly. And, that the woodsman is a broke, drunk loser. I mean, we assume he's broke. Maybe he's secretly wealthy but has a Hyde complex and occasionally becomes violent and hires prostitutes. But even with my two obvious "hey everyone I was wrong about stuff" so far, I'm not taking that. Whether glamors can change your appearance, though, that's interesting. Again, all we really have is a ring that she was wearing. Her father had one on his skeleton hand, too. But rings can be copied. And I was right, she wasn't wearing it . . . in the Woodsman's apartment. Also, nice try sliding off topic that someone might be hiding something under the veil of magic markers. Edit: Just giving you a hard time. It's great fun trying to piece together these little pieces. Also, she's wearing the ring when she smashes him in the head with the axe, so unless she's a pickpocket or it was in his apartment, she must have had it with . . . oh man. It could've been in his apartment. HeadGrenade fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 22:39
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Eh. Just because Bigby and Woody assumed that she was prostitute and that all she was digging for was cash doesn't mean that is what was actually going on. There's still the "These lips are sealed" thing to consider. If she was simply a hooker looking to get paid why not just come out and confirm it verbally? It sounded a lot more like she'd been enchanted such that she literally couldn't say anything else about it, and her telling Bigby that she'd told him what was going on to the best of her ability really confirms that for me. With regards to "Did Woody have the ring?" I dunno. When she searches his pockets she seems legitimately pissed that he didn't have what she was after, but I suppose that could have just been a show for Bigby. Too soon to call, but good catch.
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Jan 18, 2015 23:21
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The victim was decapitated with a sharp and/or magical object correct? While the woodsman does have a presumably magical and definitely sharp ax he doesn't seem like he could do such a neat cut, given his apparent reputation as a drunk while Lawrence is both connected to the victim by way of being married and is apparently in possession of a dagger which is presumably sharp and/or magical so we should probably look into Lawrence first, even if he's not a suspect he should probably be informed of the death of his wife.
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Jan 18, 2015 23:38
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Ooh, speaking of Woody's axe, I saw something about it that I really really thought was cool. If you look at it, the Axe head is clearly the original brought over from their world. But the handle looks like this. So he must have had to replace the original at some point. Another excellent bit of subtle world-building from Telltale. Oh yeah. Voting. Faith isn't going to get any more dead. Let's go find out what kind of new poo poo-show is going on with Toad. RickVoid fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 23:49
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:48 |
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I liked HeadGrenade's theory that Faith was the girl from The Velvet Ribbon, and I'm not sure we can discount that even now given the mirror was unable to find her and whatever went on with the ring. For that reason, let's go see Prince Lawrence and get a more positive ID.
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Jan 18, 2015 23:54
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